45/70 Handi-Rifle

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  • Last Post 30 April 2016
Pigslayer posted this 16 August 2015

For the heck of it I'm thinking about buying this rifle. Any comments/experience? Pat  

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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gpidaho posted this 16 August 2015

Good to see you back Pat. New Handi rifles are becoming a thing of the past, if you find one grab it fast. Do I remember you having a 444? Might be slightly easier to find brass for the 45-70 but in my mind one will do about the same as the other. Gp

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Pigslayer posted this 16 August 2015

Well, it's either a Handi or I go all the way with the Sharps! I do have a Handi in .444 Marlin & it shoots very well with a custom made .300 gr. cast. I also have the handi in .308 Win. but for now I am forced to use jacketed until I have the throat reamed.  The .308 with jacketed is cutting bullet holes at 100 yds. Going to the gunsmith soon to have the throat reamed & the trigger pull lightened to about 3lbs.  

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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onondaga posted this 17 August 2015

http://castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=6171>Pigslayer

Try the RD165 FNGC in your .308 Handi seated to the crimp groove. It will chamber that way and engage the throat nicely. I'd say cast it in #2, size/check at .310, then just load to ~ 2150 fps with H4895 and shoot!!!!

Really worth the try, it is a great hunting and great shooting bullet. Just seat them to the groove, crimp lightly and let them smush into the throat when you chamber them.

Gary

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tturner53 posted this 17 August 2015

If you can swing the Sharps that's a easy decision. Much nicer gun. The Handi 45-70 is fun, light and Handy! Wicked at the bench though. They come with sights so make a good hunting gun. Mine will do pretty good with about anything I stick in there. You can probably think of any Handy as an investment since they're discontinued.

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Pigslayer posted this 22 August 2015

onondaga wrote: http://castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=6171>Pigslayer

Try the RD165 FNGC in your .308 Handi seated to the crimp groove. It will chamber that way and engage the throat nicely. I'd say cast it in #2, size/check at .310, then just load to ~ 2150 fps with H4895 and shoot!!!!

Really worth the try, it is a great hunting and great shooting bullet. Just seat them to the groove, crimp lightly and let them smush into the throat when you chamber them.

Gary
Gary,      The throat is actually shaving the bands off before the bullet even gets to the rifling.  Seemingly no taper whatsoever. Pat

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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onondaga posted this 22 August 2015

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=6171>Pigslayer

The RD165 will have no grooves exposed to be shaved by the throat when seated to the crimp groove. The bottom 2 cartridges in this photo show the RD165 loaded in 30-06.

Seating the bullet like this in a .308 will also work . The bullet base will be deep into the brass shoulder on a .308 but it should work fine.

The other bullet in the picture is the Lee 170 gr FNGC and it is a nose riding design.  My grandson shoots both these bullets sized .310” in his .308 W Savage 11/111.

I am not understanding your problem. If your exposed bands are being shaved, just size the bullets to the shaved size and lube before seating them.

I wouldn't ream the .308 Handi throat at all. Actually you are fortunate the throat shaves the bullets you have tried, That shaved size is exactly the right size your bullets need to contact the throat. You only need to obtain or modify a bullet sizing die to get your bullets sized to duplicate the shaved size you can easily measure.

Gary

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Pigslayer posted this 22 August 2015

onondaga wrote: http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=6171>Pigslayer

The RD165 will have no grooves exposed to be shaved by the throat when seated to the crimp groove. The bottom 2 cartridges in this photo show the RD165 loaded in 30-06.

Seating the bullet like this in a .308 will also work . The bullet base will be deep into the brass shoulder on a .308 but it should work fine.

The other bullet in the picture is the Lee 170 gr FNGC and it is a nose riding design.  My grandson shoots both these bullets sized .310” in his .308 W Savage 11/111.

I am not understanding your problem. If your exposed bands are being shaved, just size the bullets to the shaved size and lube before seating them.

I wouldn't ream the .308 Handi throat at all. Actually you are fortunate the throat shaves the bullets you have tried, That shaved size is exactly the right size your bullets need to contact the throat. You only need to obtain or modify a bullet sizing die to get your bullets sized to duplicate the shaved size you can easily measure.

Gary Gary,      The exposed bands are sized to exactly .002” over groove diameter.  I'm going to do a chamber cast to be more definitive. I will get back with you on this as I value your input. Thanks, Pat

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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onondaga posted this 22 August 2015

Pat, your exposed bands being .002” larger than the grooves is a Good Thing.

To me, that just means your bullets are big enough to work. I hope you have a variety of bullet sizing dies in 30 Cal. as I do.

The only thing I would do in your situation is use the largest bullet sizing die that will size and check at the biggest diameter that will chamber.

This will be your throat diameter before the taper starts into the lands.

I'm not sure of the taper length from the throat to the full land height, but you have a ball seat there somewhere for the nose of a bullet.I just size the bullet to the throat and when loading ammo seat the bullet to engage the ball seat .010”

The Handi in .308 may have a very short leade or a long leade chamber. It doesn't matter to me, I only use it as a contact reference for the bullet and set the seating die up for the engagement I want.

There is no taper of the throat in a .308 Handi I am aware of. The chamber diameter from the end of the cartridge plus several thousandths,  to where the ball seat taper begins is constant. This is what your bullet should be sized/checked to fit.

Gary

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Pigslayer posted this 23 August 2015

Gary, Am using the attached pic as an example of what I think is going on. This pic shows no taper to the lands. It's almost as if my Handi doesn't either. It's as if my bands are getting shaved off (not squished down) before getting to the lands.      The shoulder at the beginning of the freebore area may be too small a diameter with a sharp squared of shoulder that's causing the issue also. Pat I se the attached pic only as a way of describing what I think is going on.

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

onondaga posted this 23 August 2015

Pat, I hope the 'Freebore” pictured in the drawing does not represent your rifle. It appears too short for SAAMI and there is no tapered ball seat into the lands.

DO a chamber casting and see if that is really what you have. If that is what you really have, then a bore riding bullet to fit is in order and your +.002” bullet will work as is.

The Handi is a single shot and it actually doesn't care if cast bullets are scraped or not upon chambering, just as long as they chamber with reasonable force. The barrel will size them upon firing.

How does ammo chamber with your bullets that are +.002” That .002” shave of the bands  is not a disaster if the rounds chamber. Just note that the rounds will be damaged if you un-chamber them without firing them. That is a small price to pay and pretty common to cast bullet shooters that actually hit stuff they shoot at.

Also note: The Handi does not have a NATO chamber, it has a SAAMI chamber that should have a tapered ball seat to SAAMI specifications, not to the NATO chamber specifications  you picture.

Gary

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onondaga posted this 24 August 2015

Pat,

The tapered ball seat for the .308 Win is clearly shown in this SAAMI drawing for ammunition and chamber. The degree of angle and length of the taper is clearly specified in the SAAMI chamber drawing for .308 Winchester. This should be reflected in a chamber casting of your Handi-rifle. it is a very gentile taper of 1 degree and 43 minutes of angle for a length of 0.1637".

.308 SAAMI drawing:

http://www.saami.org/pubresources/cc_drawings/Rifle/308%20Winchester.pdf>http://www.saami.org/pubresources/ccdrawings/Rifle/308%20Winchester.pdf

An ideal LOA for a cast bullet in a single shot .308 should be .010” longer than the first contact of the bullet ogive to provide .010” engagement of the leade taper by the bullet ogive.

The .010” engagement is what I aim for when adjusting my bullet seating die. Then I see how that feels when I chamber a round. If it closes, I shoot it,

SAAMI also specifies .310” diameter freebore of the throat before the taper starts. if your chamber casting shows that .310", that is the correct sized bullet diameter for your Handi. But use what your chamber casting shows for the freebore area as your ideal bullet diameter.

I know I am speaking to the choir Pat, but I point these things out for our beginners on this forum.

Friend Gary

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 24 August 2015

hi pat ... while i am thinking about it if your 30 chamber image doesn't show a useable throat i have a ” universal fix-it ” ppg throater reamer ... 0.313 to under bore dia . .... about 3 degrees as i remember . would loan it to you if it appears useful . you can gently throat by hand ... just don't hiccup while advancing reamer .. and try as you go . keep in mind .

ken

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Brodie posted this 24 August 2015

I have a feeling that the “throat” in my M44 3855 is all to similar to that drawing Pat posted.   I cleaned all the lead out of it the other day and there was a quite an accumulation of lead at the start of the rifling and a little down the bore.  If I don't solve the problem I may have to take out a lead claim on the rifle.  Brodie

B.E.Brickey

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4570sharps posted this 28 April 2016

Should be a shoulder thumper in 45/70!

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 28 April 2016

if you like the 45-70 i have a friend who is selling his 97 per cent ruger 1S in 45-70 ... if interested pm me .

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dodgyrog posted this 29 April 2016

I have a 45/70 Handi Rifle over here in the UK - I love it but it keeps spitting off the scope!

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onondaga posted this 30 April 2016

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=6110>dodgyrog

Consider a one piece complete mount system for your Handi-rifle that is the most solid and most accurately centered mount system that uses the factory DT holes. I use this on my 500 S&W Handi-rifle that kicks substantially more than a 45-70. Mine has never moved in 6 years and that is typical of this superb mount for the Handi:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/947156/dnz-products-game-reaper-1-piece-scope-base-with-1-integral-rings-h-and-r-ultra-nef-handi-rifle-silver-high>http://www.midwayusa.com/product/947156/dnz-products-game-reaper-1-piece-scope-base-with-1-integral-rings-h-and-r-ultra-nef-handi-rifle-silver-high

I don't believe there is a stronger better mount for Handi-rifles than DNZ

Gary

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