I recently purchased this mold in 2 cavity, for use in a Browning Hi-Power. I am having problems with leading the length of the barrel and bullet tumbling. My groove diameter is .357, and my bullets drop at .358, using ACWW, and are sized at .358. The bullets weigh out at 154 gr. Caranuba Red is the lube. I made a special .357 expander, giving me a net of .356 for the bullets, and with a little more length of expansion than the stock expander has. The bullets seat easy, and pulling bullets from loaded rounds show no measurable swaging. My other mold a Lyman 356402, with bullets also sized to .358, and cast from the same wheelweights, shoots fine with no leading or tumbling. I believe the tapered base is the cause of my problem. I think that hot gasses are getting around this bullet before it can seal off the bore. If this proves to be so, I can think of two solutions. Mill the base of the mold down to get rid of the taper, or remove the taper with a lathe. Either result gives me a flat base. I have a mill and lathe to do either one of these. I like the bullet heavy, so milling the base is not the first choice. Turning off the taper, could possibly make the bullet bearing surface too long for the internally tapered 9mm case. That's why this bullet is tapered in the first place. Fortunately my BHP has a generous chamber with a long throat. I can seat my bullets out considerably further than normal, about .060, while still working in the magazine. I might just get away with this. Has anyone else had this problem, and what did you do to solve it?
Lyman 9mm 356637 147 gr
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- Last Post 29 November 2015
"I think that hot gasses are getting around this bullet before it can seal off the bore."
A slightly softer alloy may bump up and seal, but your bullets are too small in diameter or too soft for your load level if you are leading up.
Another very reasonable solution is to get a larger diameter sizing die or hone the one you have.
Bullets with the largest diameter that will easily chamber are the correct size. Have you inked bullets on any loaded rounds to see how and where the ink is disturbed by chambering/unchambering? They should be well marked all the way around and function. If they are looser than that you should expect leading. Beveled bases are generally non-problematic unless your load level exceeds your alloy strength.
Your bullet lube will not stop leading if your bullets are too soft for your load level or if they are not big enough in diameter to show ink well marked from chambering.
Your barrel leading sounds only due to basic bullet fit and basic alloy selection.
Your groove diameter is not relevant to your specific problem unless you are going to change the barrel to a smaller groove diameter to fit your undersized bullets better. It is not uncommon to need bullets .003” or more larger than G diameter. If they chamber, they will size when you shoot them. They are cast bullets not jacketed bullets and the fit for cast bullets has basic differences that are needed and very important to stop leading.
Gary
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I'd simply try a different mould. If you cut the boat tail out with a lathe, the base of the bullet will be square, and the length of the bullet will cause the bullet to be even heavier that 140 gr, probably in the 160+ gr weight range. This isn't all bad, but the bullet will also be extraordinarily long, and won't seat very deep in the case because the base will meet interference with the cases inside taper. You mat have a long throat in the barrel, but would the resulting bullets fit in the magazine, and feed? It's hard telling at this point. BTW, your barrel could be the problem, many autoloaders seem to benefit from a visit with a throating reamer, to ease the angle of approach into the rifling for cast bullets. This is a pretty common situation in some semi-autos, regardless of caliber.
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Update: I tried the bullet in another 9mm, with a .355 barrel. It worked fine with no leading or tumbling. I slugged my BHP barrel again, using a different micrometer, that goes down to .0001. It measured .3577, which is huge for a 9mm barrel. .358 diameter bullets are about the limit I can use, and still be able to chamber a round, so going larger is out of the question. I am going to cast and heat treat some bullets, and see if they lead also. This barrel does shoot decent with jacketed factory ammo. Just out of curiosity, I filed off the bevel base of a bullet and weighed it. It went from 154 gr to 139 gr. A 15 gr loss.
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I tried #356637 shortly after Lyman began marketing it.I don't recall exact dimensions, but wheelweight alloy bullets were undersized, preventing decent accuracy in a Beretta, Sig, and a Walther P4.
.358” or .359” bullets seem to work best in most 9mms. I've found bevel bases to be a problem only because they're messy to run through a lubrisizer. Perhaps a bevel base could contribute to leading and inaccuracy, but I've not personally seen such.
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the following is just speculation from a former farmer/blacksmith so there could be some variance in validity ... ( g ) ...
but i think that a bevel base would not tend to ” leak ” gas around the bullet any more than a flat base ... actually the same ...
in the case of a solid punch with the cup shape of the bevel base, there would be a lot more pressure ( force per square inch ) at the knife-edge tip of the punch ... but with a gas, pressure is equal at all surfaces .
so in this case i propose that the problem is just simply that the bullet is too small for the combination of chamber y throat . with a 0.358 groove barrel, it might take a throat reamed to take a 0.359-360 bullet . or try a hollow based bullet .
i gotta try hornady 0.357 hollow base wadcutters in my beretta 92 at 800 fps ... it feeds everything else ... might be fun ; round nose are boring ...
ken
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I had that mold and I tried it in my Taurus PT92. It too tumbled & gave very poor results. The bullet just didn't drop big enough for proper bullet fitment. I sold it on ebay.
If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.
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Second update: I cast some more bullets of WW, and heat treated them. No more leading or tumbling. I was given some Nobel Sport BA9 powder and ballisticly duplicated my previous loading using 231 powder, (880 fps). I noticed the fired primers looked a lot different. The fired BA9 primers were much rounder, while the fired 231 load primers were much flatter. A sure sign that the BA9 load was of much lower pressure. I switched back from the HT bullets to the AC bullets using the BA9 load. No leading or tumbling at all. Apparently my trouble was that the bullet alloy was failing with the 231 load. It is a little suprising, although my load of 231 was not a maximum load, it was still more than the WW alloy could withstand in my pistol. Thank you all for your responses!
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I once had 9mm, 40 S&W, and 45 ACP working flawlessly at one time. Then I listened to folks on Cast Boo, a site I now avoid, and kept trying to make my bullets softer, and softer. Mainly because the cool kids all shoot softer bullets. I went through an aggravating phase of leading, and finally quit casting for autoloaders at all. Now I'm casting harder, and heat-treating again, and all those issues went away again. I was happy before, but I just had to try fitting in with a group that's stuck on a single track. I'm much better now.
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I've been looking for a CF pistol. Here's what I've come up with. 9mm Blazer ammo can be bought on sale for <$10/50, = 20Cents a shot. I would buy a 9mm pistol and never cast bullets for it at that price. Primers are 3-4 cents! I'm thinking Ruger Blackhawk Convertible, 357 and 9mm. Blazer in 9mm, cast and load, a little, for 357. I've never understood why handgunners need a quart of ctgs to go shooting. While practice counts, I remember Arthur Craig Jr. with a Hammerli Martini 22, taking an hour or longer to get off 10 shots. He picked it up, then put it down, a lot. Walked around, sat down, got up. However, I was never a good pistol shot. I shot a Ruger BH old 44 Mag, 429421 and 9/Unique for a long time, using the Elmer Keith sitting down hands between the knees position, and could break skeet birds at 100 and 200 yards with some little regularity. Others hit with much more regularity than I.
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if choosing a handgun was logical, it would be easier ... just choose one for the job ... but ” some ” of us choose unwisely .... the shiney one ... a beretta cause that is what the tv cops use ... hey look ... john wayne's forty-4 ... !! ... a blackhawk fer sure then ...
if i was choosing intelligently , i would go springfield dsm 45 for an automatic, and/or a ruger security six/gp100 357 for a revolver .
if a 357 barrel is 358 groove ... would a converter cylinder in 9mm ( 355 ) rattle y slip ?
ken
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Ken: The “logic” has been driving me nuts the last month or so. Should I get the Ruger BH convertible in 357-9mm or 45LC-45ACP? Having tired completely with paying ten cents + for 22LR ammo, I traded in my S&W AR15-22 (nice little gun, never missed a beat) at a friends shop. My choice, the 45Bh. I hope it doesn't need all the throating it took to get my 44-40 Vaquero to shoot cast. Anyway, after getting over the “squirrel in the road” feeling I'm looking forward to a new reloadable toy. Gp
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gpIdaho; Your 45 black hawk convertable probably won't need any cylinder work if it is one of the latest production guns. At least mine has not and it shoots well with either cylinder, and surprisingly close to the same point of aim with either ammo. My only complaint is the grips, and I can fix that quick enough as soon as I get one of those round twoits. Brodie
B.E.Brickey
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Thanks for the reply Brodie, I'm hopeful that's the case (brand new gun from Davidsons) Yes, the grips that come on the Blackhawks Don't fit me either, first thing I traded out on my 41mag BH. Gp
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