just picked up a 71/84 mauser

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  • Last Post 17 December 2015
EvanGuy posted this 22 November 2015

I ended up this this old relic in my collection. it was a toss up between this and a stevens favorite #20 .32 rimfire. i wanted an odd cartrage and since i can buy new brass in canada for 4.50 each and its a low pressure gun i should be able to get away with only buying 20 cases and be able to reload for ever. i went with this over the rim fire, i could have converted to center fire but i didn't want to modify such an old cool gun.

so its a mauser made in 1887, its a model 71/84 it has a 8 round tube mag that has been cut to five rounds. its bolt action and chambered in .43 mauser (11x60r) the barrel has good rifling and slugs at .446". full length barrel at 30.75"

i guess for load data you use the data released for the springfield trapdoor 45-70, im ordering the brass and 100 375gr cast bullets sized at .446", hodgdon's website has alot of data for it and for the powder i have too, h4895.

any one have any info on load for this thing, or have one they shoot them self? also is it worth it to buy some BP to try this thing as it was made? or stick to smokeless

im excited to shoot it. its all matching numbers but the bolt, its different.

..

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Brodie posted this 22 November 2015

There should be plenty of load information for the 43 Mauser and I guess that you have found some of it on the Hodgon site. Just keep pressures to black powder levels which I am sure that you will. RCBS has a mold for that .446 375 gr. bullet you ordered. I would cast them soft say: 1:30 or 1:40. I shoot them in my Whitworth muzzle loader paper patched to .451". They shoot quite well. Good luck and good shooting. Brodie

B.E.Brickey

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EvanGuy posted this 22 November 2015

well i found springfield trapdoor info on hodgdons website and the loads are listed form about 9,500 psi to 26,000

i plan on using that data and not exceeding about 16,500 psi so my first load will be is 38gr of h4895 under a 376gr bullet should be about 1350fps and around 16,000psi

Hodgdon - H4895 .458” 2.505" 35.0 gr 1,280 fps 11,900 CUP

42.0gr 1,526 fps 23,100 CUP it lists 458” dia, when mine are 446” so we shall see what happens there lol (clearly lower pressure)

thanks for the info, i ordered these bullets in canada sized and lubed for 35$ per 100

i will buy the mold myself if they work well, i am also tempted to buy .454 pure lead balls at 140gr, and see how they shoot.

yeah soft lead seems to be ideal for this old rig, so i read. thanks for the response.

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rjmeyer314 posted this 22 November 2015

I have tried several loads in my 71/84 43 Mauser. These are re all using the Lyman 446110 bullet. Bullet weight 355 grains. My notes don't tell me what alloy I was using, but from the date (2008) I suspect they are all straight linotype. The groups are all shot at 25 yards.

30.0 gr AA 5744 5 in 2.041 4 in 1.150 30.0 gr imr4198 5 in 1.119 30.0 gr imr3031 5 in 2.349 4 in 1.194 13.0 gr Trail Boss 4 in 1.454 I decided to optimize the imr4198 load. Again, same bullet, 25 yards: 30.0 gr imr4198 5 in 1.974” approx. centered 31.0 gr imr4198 5 in 2.273” approx. centered 32.0 gr imr4198 5 in 1.011” well centered 33.0 gr imr4198 5 in 0.970” 1” left of center.

The last 2 loads are about 4.5” above point of aim at lowest sight setting. The sights aren't adjustable for windage, so I went with the 32.0 grain load to get centered group. I'm still going thorough my shooting records. If I find a anything more on the 43 Mauser I'll post it later.

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rjmeyer314 posted this 22 November 2015

The above group sizes are in inches, center to center.

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delmarskid1 posted this 22 November 2015

Nice catch, I love those old things. I have no new ideas. I'm just glad that you have one of those sweet old rifles.

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corerf posted this 22 November 2015

Own two as of Friday, when I picked up a model 71 all matching mint bore to join my jaeger.

I also have a jaeger sporter from Germany, beyond mint bore (as new) with the balance of gun beyond new condition, if a gun could have that property.

Have NOT fired either yet as I have been trying very hard to buy correct CCC proper brass for less than 100.00/20 once fired......w/o Bertram being involved due to reported massive case loss on first firing being the norm.

Shortly though I intend to load BP/40-1/ 45-90 starline for both. Smokeless would be very friendly but I just can't push past BP. More labor to love.

I have high hopes for both rifles in accuracy dept.

I'll be watching this thread closely.

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tturner53 posted this 22 November 2015

Congratulations to you both. I'm jealous. Always wanted one of those. Re. the BP vs. smokeless question-I use both in my old Trapdoor 45-70. (Not together!). My thinking is why limit myself? Sometimes I feel like a little black. Then, not. My best 100 yd. group in the 1884 TD is an honest 5 shots in an inch! It was a good day. Red Dot and Promo have been great powders, around 1100 fps with a 350 gr Ranch Dog. Trailboss has also been good accuracy wise in any straight cased cartridges, ie. 45-70, .444 Marlin. Good luck with your new toys. Keep the reports and pics coming. It is most interesting. If it's not too nosy, about how much does a guy have to give to get a real nice original 71/84? I need one of my own.

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corerf posted this 22 November 2015

being an advocate of single shots, I prefer the 71. What I paid for both most filks couldn't pay for one, simply due to timing. I have an acer in the hole dealer that I watch and they posted a 71 Jaeger, all cut down and not original, except for the original bluing at 90++ pct, original white receiver still in the white, roll marks as crisp as a new,y minted penny and a bore that looks like it has never seen a round.

Ill say it hit my door at least than $250 all total.

The Friday find should have set me back $6-800 and it only cost me $250. Its receiver finish is marred by a large stain formed in the white receiver but otherwise is 80++ pct finish and just as unfired looking down the pipe as can be.

Gunbroker has them frequently. If your serious about owning one as a shooter, not a safe queen, look for the odd duck, unmatched, hit with an ugly stick on the outside (which is all fine rust!) with a solid stock and unmatching bolt (few have matching bolts).

Inquire and get a bore condition and then ask for detail pics of the bore. You will find that they are being sold by PPT (not dealers) at $150 start/NR and the seller will have a very nice report on bore.

All of my early guns that are European (Vetterli 41, mauser71, etc) have been browned up crap on the outside and “mint” internally! Many I have passed over had very bad bores, just ignore them. But when the bore is not stated, its always due to ignorance on sellers part or the bore importance. Personally, aesthetics matter far less than bore and completeness. Ill take a mint bore, mismatched rifle over a perfect cosmetic 7/10 bore any day!!

Tim I bet you can get one for $250-450 in fine bore condition, clean sharp muzzle, tight clean action but it will look like it was dipped in chocolate and left to dry! At least thats my thoughts and ways. I feel like price is dropping a bit lately and in part due to lack of available brass. Most I have seen haven't been fired since 1900. Rust in the first 2 inch at muzzle, then superb immaculate bore the rest of the way. Closet corners is where they are stored. All of them. If its 1800.00, its like it was built yesterday, cartouches, etc are like they were stamped in front of you. Those I want nothing to do with.

Go after one Tim. you can never have enough big fat BPCR, never!

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EvanGuy posted this 23 November 2015

rjmeyer314- thanks for your info, ill look into load data and see what pressures you were working with,also thanks for taking a look through your notes.

delmarskid1 - i didnt even know what one was about 2 weeks ago lol, i seen it for sale and looked up the ,43 mauser cartage and fell in love, i was excited to say the least, i love old stuff, and uncommon stuff too.

corerf- sounds like you have some nice rifles, i was your stevens lol. i am buying Bertram brass for 45$can per 10 cases, i just plan to anneal the whole case (other then the rim) before my first fire then after the first few firings they should toughen up. maybe first few loads ill shoot for 10,000 psi. yes i too want to use black powder but that will be another adventure all together, maybe this summer

also i see you have a lathe, thats cool, im a machinist and run a manual  mill all day at work but i have a little lathe at home, they are great to have, i have a Myford super 7

tturner53- Thanks im very excited to have this, and i even more so cant wait to shoot it, ill be trying both BP and smokeless in this. probably not right away, i will no doubt get into using pistol powders and around 1000fps but as of now im looking for more like 1500fps so it will be a slower rifle powder for now, ill keep the reports and pics coming, one my brass gets here.,

also i paid 300$can for the gun you see in the pics, there were also 2 other ones available at the time, one was 225$, and looked like mine but cut barrel 24", and the other was 400$ and looked like mine and full barrel and wood.

i guess for all matching numbers in 8/10 or better condition they are around $1200$ but that will look like the pics on the wiki page for the 1871 mauser

corerf- they sound really nice, this ones bore is about a 7/10 maybe 6/10, it has full rifling and looks good, no pitting but there is 2 sections about 3 inches long that are not shiny at all and quite dull looking. but still sharp edges on the rifling and the slug has no loose spots

i was just really excited to get one of these, i plan to shoot it like 100 times a year and show people it who come over who are into guns. also if it hits 8x11 metal plate at 100m ill be more then happy

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EvanGuy posted this 29 November 2015

so the date Canada post said the brass will show up is on December  3rd, ill be making a video of this rigs first fire on the following  weekend.

I guess i got a little excited when making the mold for the cast bullets. they are pointed lol. The gun runs a tube mag...... So ill be making a new mold. this time it will be flat nose and mimic the solid copper ones i made for the fun of it. i have ten of them i only have one with me he rest of at work. the solid copper lathe turned ones are .446” and weigh 315gr. The lead lead one of the same size and shape should be around 380, ( lead is 1.27 times heavier then copper. So pure lead they will weigh 399gr but ill add some tin to the pure lead) so im hoping for very close to factory load weight.

Im getting excited that i can soon fire this thing. also just to make it clear i will not be firing he solid copper bullets in this gun they are just for display and to get a size for my mold. now i can take how much more lead weights then copper and figure out how much longer or shorter to make the end part of the bullet in the mold.

 

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mike44 posted this 04 December 2015

evan, I have one of them also. numbers don't match and stock has a repaired crack but it has a nice bore and it is fun to shoot. It has the best trigger of all the warhorses that I have. I shoot only black. the 8x11 metal plate should be no problem.

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Dutch4122 posted this 04 December 2015

My load is 28 grains of AA-5744 over a 382 grain slug cast of 40/1 from an Accurate Molds #43-360L.  Sized to .446".  From what I have read my chrono'd velocity is right on par with the original service load @ 1,450 fps. I'm using reformed Starline 45-90 brass with the rims turned down & back side beveled. Hope this helps, 

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EvanGuy posted this 05 December 2015

mike44, good im glad to hear and i do want to try black powder one day

Dutch4122, thanks for the info. i have brass now. also check out that mold and i plan on using h4895 for the first loads probably around 30gr.

its getting closer to firing. i have no dies for the brass but ill make a temp set on my lathe to get a few loaded. really as of now i just need to anneal the cases and then expand them almost 10 thou in the necks

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EvanGuy posted this 05 December 2015

HA this thing is sooo cool to shoot. wow

so i fired this thing twice today. i just had to fire it. i didnt get to make a video of it. i was by my self and wasnt at the range to ask anyone to hold my phone.

i used hodgdons min load for h4895 for the 405gr bullet, it was 40 gr for min load my bullets weigh 430gr so i backed off the powder to 38.8gr (i used my lee 2.8cc scoop) it should have been 14,000psi, the cases look great, the shoulder was moved ahead about 1/8 an inch, and the necks are about .455” after firing.

issue is primers backing WAY out. like WAYYYY out see attached pics. not sure what causes this.but its a little concerning  

what do you all think???

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rjmeyer314 posted this 05 December 2015

A friend of mine had primers backing out on his 257 Roberts. After working on the problem for about 10 years he discovered that it was a headspace problem. Screwing the barrel out about a quarter turn solved the problem. I would have thought it would have been easier to ream the chamber. For a 43 mauser I would try shortening the case neck a little bit and seating the bullet in the same relation to the case mouth. What does everyone else think?

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EvanGuy posted this 06 December 2015

thanks for the replay, one of my lee Enfield has primers backing out on lower power hand loads,i made a head space gauge and tried it out it was at the very top of mil spec, around .074” and i was using winchester brass so thin rim. long story short i got a new bolt head that was 7 thou longer, no more issues

i do believe this is a head space problem for sure. buts its a rimed cartridge so there are variables.

see, the screwing the barrel out a 1/4 turn does not make sense. the bolt only goes where it goes, and it needs to be backed up against the locking lug. if you turn unscrew the barrel your making that distance LONGER with adds to the head space. also the cutout for the extractor would be miss aligned

and with reaming the chamber again that will make things bigger and add to the chamber size and cause me to fire form the crap out of my cases, and being rimmed it will have NO effect on head space,

also how would shortening the cases help, there is loads more chamber after the case, BUT i feel longer cases would even help me, well seating the bullet as far as possible out so it hit the lands thus holding the case out a bit allowing it to contact the bolt face when closed.

but if i was to turn the barrel down to the thread minor dia. and figure out how many thou per turn the threads are i could turn that distance off and bring the barrel face closer to the bolt, and then adjust extractor grove as needed.

a real option is take the bolt apart and figure out its working and look into a longer bolt head or spacing it out with a shim and machine the extractor clearance since the extractor comes off the bot body.

what im more thinking is, the rim may be thin or its a non matching bolt so there is alot of head space

options i believe are plastic ring around around the back holding the rim against the bolt head.

firing it as is, its very low pressure (14,000psi) the primer didnt leak even being that backed out, one the cases are fire formed to chamber they should grab a bit harder in the chamber,

also one backed out alot farther then the other, so they have the potential to stay in while firing.

i dont know really i would like to hear from someone with experience with older low pressure cartridges

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delmarskid1 posted this 06 December 2015

Some of those old guns have had strange things happen to them in there long lives. People messed with chambers to fire other ammunition than was intended. You may need to look at rim thickness as an issue. I don't know if the 43 Mauser has enough shoulder to head space with in lieu of using the rim. These are just some thoughts of course. I've done Bubba head space checking with shims of tape and Coke cans. Yeah, Bubba like I said. It's something to try any way. Are you using formed brass? Some people bend the rim forward in some way to make it work as if it is thicker. I have been playing with 43 Spanish rounds and they are tough to make correctly. I don't try any more.

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corerf posted this 07 December 2015

Evan, you likely have a huge chamber and misfit brass (unformed) with a low shoulder and no pressure.

The case expands and doesn't shove itself back into the bolt face upon ignition, therefore the shoulder gets Improperly positioned and the primer has a huge gap to eject into.

So the cure is simple, and it's frequent for necked cases, light charges and low pressures.

The bullet needs to be seated extremely long on you full length sized cases, cases should be oiled so that CAN shift backwards and the bullet should jam in the rifling or otherwise force the case to be difficult to close in the action.

This will preset the case to the rear, oil will allow it to slam backwards  completely on its first fire form ignition, put shoulder where it should be.

Heretofore you will headspace the case on the shoulder and not the rim!

Do not fl size the case, quasi FL size at most so that the shoulder maintains correct headspace.

I don't think anything but neck will be required for many many firings!

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EvanGuy posted this 07 December 2015

as im reading the replies im thinking this makes so much sense. Im glad i posted because i was over looking a simple very easy way to fix my problem

I do have new unfired bertram brass anf i did notice the sholder on the fired ones are moved ahead about three mm. ill do as you sugested and lube the case also seat thebullet into the rifling to hold the case against the bolt face.

Also the load im going to use is 14,000psi. it goes bang so i probably wont play with the powder much.

Thanks for the help ill get the cases fire formed and then they will head space off the sholder...

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corerf posted this 07 December 2015

That will do superb, your set.

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