What I have learned about making Powder Coating Easier

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Jeff Suever posted this 24 December 2015

The below is from an email I sent to a friend who suggested I post it here. Powder Coating is not for everyone. It's not a “purist” bench rest, 2 inch hole at 500 yards kind of thing. It's a “use cheaper alloys and have prettier colors” kind of thing. There is some talk of accuracy, and it is generally on par. Some guys get better, some a little worse. In some ways, I think the jury is still out, but if there was a horrible degradation it would have been called out.

What you are about to read is a combination of things I have picked up from other forums  and then validated with my own experience.

Some time back I gave Powder Coating with Harbor Freight Red a try but I was not entirely happy with the way it turned out. I used the Dry Tumble with Air Soft BB method as I do not have a spray gun. Got acceptable coverage, but I still got some leading in my HK with polygonal rifling. Not a lot, just a little. Plus it just was not a “smooth, even coat". I understand it won't be with the DTASBB method, but it just seemed too gloopy to me.  When I cast the bullets, I was “casting fast” with them and I had the little divots in the base when cutting the sprues. This caused them to stick to the foil and generally be a pain. Yes, I used non-stick foil. Yes, the right side was up. In general some of them stuck to the foil causing me to have to try to peel tiny bits of it off. Not all, but some. Combine that with the immense PITA of shake-shake-shake pick out 10-15, shake shake shake, pick out 10-15 and it was a nightmare. I thought it might have to do with humidity so I tried it inside. No luck. I bought a Star.

At any rate, in an effort to make some Christmas presents for the Chair of the Decorating Committee I decided to give this another try. I had much better results this time and here's what I learned:<> Get powder from Smoke4320 over on the Cast Boolits site. You can find the contact info http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?252509-Hi-Quality-Powdercoating-Powder-For-sale>here. I know guys use Harbor Freight, but I'm here to tell you there's a difference. I made this last batch outside in the shed, next to the door, while it was raining. In Florida.<>Container. There is a lot of talk about cool whip containers, food storage containers, anything with a #5 in the recycle emblem. Don't. I tried several different ones. Cool whip is too deep. Makes picking them out a pain. Large shallow ones make a mess because the lid will #%@^&#(@! pop up about 1/8” while shaking..JUST ENOUGH TO MAKE A MESS. Get the round, Glad mini food storage containers that hold 12oz of water. They are the right size. You can hold it with one hand. <>Put enough black air soft BBs in for about 1.5-2 layers. No more. <>Throw in a fist full of bullets. about 50 358-125RFs seemed about right <>1.5 - 2 rounded teaspoons of powder seemed to work. Too little and you don't get coverage. Too much and you have clumps. <>With these containers you can hold the lid on tight with one hand while you swirl it for about 20-30 seconds, then, with both hands, shake it up and down like a little kid with his brother's soda can(Sorry Doug. Yeah, that was on purpose 40 years ago). The vertical shake is critical. It also seemed to be a little better if I didn't “burp” the container, but I can't say for sure on that one. <>Pick them out being careful not to touch the driving bands and set them on the non-stick foil. <>Have three pans to rotate. <>Bake at 400 degrees using a PID if you have it. Wait until the temperature has recovered to 400 degrees, then wait until the powder looks like it is melting, then start your 10 minute timer. (I wish I could credit the original source on this tip as it is a good one. I tried a search, but no luck.) Doing it this way I got the coverage I wanted.....most of the time. I could put about 50 bullets in, shake, get somewhere between 25 and 40 out, then shake for the rest of them. Too many BBs and it didn't work. Too many bullets and it didn't work. I chased this several times previously thinking it was technique, humidity, etc. I did this out in the shed tonight, next to the door.....and it was raining. I really think the size of the container was the key.   With three trays, you should be able to get about 50-75 per 10 minute batch. It takes 10 minutes to shake and place 50-75. Probably 4-5 batches per hour is reasonable. I used a mini spring loaded needle nose pliers. I am told hemostats speed things up. With hemostats rather than needle nose pliers you might be able to get to 100 a batch. A guy might be able to get 4-500 an hour, but not any more unless they are just dumping them- which some do.    The keys I found are:<> Powder from Smoke <>Small container to shake in <>Vertical shake <>Not too many BBs or bullets <>For production you need three pans, one cooling, one baking, one loadingI have not shot these yet, but they are for medium charge 38 SPL and the size (I use a Lee push through for this) is proven to be fine with various traditional lubes as well as Ben's Liquid Lube. I hope this is useful for someone trying to get into it.

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Scearcy posted this 24 December 2015

Thank you. This is an excellent post.

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Duane Mellenbruch posted this 30 December 2015

I am pretty much a traditional bullet lube kind of guy, but this does sound interesting. I might just have to give it a try and see how this shoots with various loads.

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gpidaho posted this 30 December 2015

I've been powder coating most everything I shoot for a couple of years now and it's my advice to forget all about the air soft bb tumble method and get an electrostatic gun. The gun is the way powder coat was developed and shake and bake is just a hillbilly way of doing a poor job of it. Does it work, yes but pan lubing and hand lubing work too. A LOT of folks have been turned off of a pretty good process by being to tight to buy a gun. Anyone with a real interest in the process shot me a PM and we can discuss it without boring those here with no interest in the subject. Gp

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Jeff Suever posted this 30 December 2015

Hi all, glad you find this interesting and worth a try. Using this method, the worst case scenario you are out the equivalent of a six pack and some time. Certainly can't be more complicated than making our own alloy, working up loads, measuring throats and bores, etc.

GP- I am sure you have very good reasons for the strong opinion you have, and I would be interested to hear them. The ASBB method seems to be used successfully by many. I personally do not own an air compressor and until recently did not have a place for one so that would eliminate PC as an option for me.

Your analogy to pan lubing is likely quite accurate. Like pan lubing, ASBB allows users to give it a try with only a few dollars invested rather than buy equipment they are unsure of. Like pan lubing, ASBB allows for easy change between different types. One can have several Tupperware containers with BBs and different colors/types of powder ready to go just as they could have several pie tins with different lubes stacked up.

It is my (novice) understanding that the main differences between ES powder coating and using BBs are: 1. Looks(nod to ES) 2. Fewer variables to work out (again nod to ES) 3. Lower startup costs (nod to BB ) 4. Ease of set up- both initially and ongoing (nod to BB ) 5. Overall mess (nod to BB- provided the lid doesn't pop off)

I've not seen anywhere stated there was a difference in performance. If your experience is contrary to that, I would imagine that would be useful information that the forum would like to know.

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gpidaho posted this 30 December 2015

Jeff: Thanks for your posts on PC, an interest we have in common. As John A. posted yesterday, sometimes we come across as sounding grumpy in print. We're old men, most of us and that's just who we are. lol It's just that sooooooo mush effort has been put into alternative coatings, PC, Hy-tek, epoxy and various lubes containing this and that. All this has been painstakenly documented in print along with glossy photos, cussed and discussed and talked over to the Nth degree. All this is readily available over at our sponsor “Boolits” in the Coatings and Alternatives threads. If as some are, your adverse to the egos over there your missing out on a LOT of information and testing on how to coat, plate or lube a bullet. As friends and I have taken a lot of effort to test, document and post on the subject there I think it would be redundant to start all over here at the CBA. I would be glad to help those with an interest in PC as you all have been a BIG help to me. Thanks all, Gp

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Jeff Suever posted this 30 December 2015

Hey GP,

Fair enough and well said. I'm on the Boolits site as Landshark9025 and is where I picked up PC.... and put it back down. Lol. There are a couple of applications for it for me so we'll see if it sticks this time.

Thx

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454PB posted this 08 January 2016

I've been casting and using traditional lubes for 45 years, but I finally decided to try powder coating. I wanted to keep it as simple as possible, so here's my process. I bought a pound of Harbor Freight Red at our local store. I already had a toaster oven I use for heat treating. I filled two quart Ziploc freezer bags with 100 (total of 200) Lee .45 230 gr. TC boolits cast from WW alloy and added a teaspoon of the powder in each. No BB's or anything else. I placed both bags in my vibratory case tumbler and let it run for 10 minutes. I then transferred the coated boolits onto a piece of dollar store foil cookie sheet using hemostats initially, but then after some fumbling, resorted to a wearing a latex glove and just picking them up. Put the tray in the preheated oven and set it for 350 degrees. After they began to get shiny, I let them cook for 20 minutes. Here is the result:http://smg.photobucket.com/user/eddard49/media/Sized%20PC.jpg.html>

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Jeff Suever posted this 08 January 2016

Looks good to me. I may try the ziplock baggie in the tumbler thing. I tried using nitrile gloves, but that didn't work out so well for me. Thanks,

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waksupi posted this 11 January 2016

I just powder coated this past week for the first time. I shot in military rifles matches today, won one, tied for first in another using the coated bullets. I'm sold on PC.

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goodsteel posted this 11 January 2016

waksupi wrote: I just powder coated this past week for the first time. I shot in military rifles matches today, won one, tied for first in another using the coated bullets. I'm sold on PC. Holy mackerel. Rick is shooting PC. What has happened to this world?!?!?!:doooah:

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mtngun posted this 11 January 2016

gpidaho wrote: It's just that sooooooo mush effort has been put into alternative coatings, PC, Hy-tek, epoxy and various lubes containing this and that. All this has been painstakenly documented in print along with glossy photos, cussed and discussed and talked over to the Nth degree. All this is readily available over at our sponsor “Boolits” in the Coatings and Alternatives threads. If as some are, your adverse to the egos over there your missing out on a LOT of information and testing on how to coat, plate or lube a bullet. As friends and I have taken a lot of effort to test, document and post on the subject there I think it would be redundant to start all over here at the CBA. On that one point we'll have to respectfully disagree, my friend.   Yes there are a lot of coating posts on Boolits and other places, but the “tests” are along the lines of “my coated bullets turned out purty” or “my load went BANG without fouling the barrel." :D    If that is what you are aiming for, then by all means Boolits is the place for you!  :fire

I don't understand why anyone would want to discourage discussing subjects related to cast bullets?   Isn't that what the CBA is for?     If you don't like a thread you don't have to read it, right? 

Re: spray vs shake:   It is easy to imagine the advantage of spray over shake --  shake may result in a less uniform coating thickness that may cause imbalance and hurt accuracy if you push the bullets fast enough that balance matters.    If someone has accuracy tested that sort of thing in a meaningful way, I have not run across it?    Do you have a link?

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RicinYakima posted this 11 January 2016

mtngun, Test published in The Fouling Shot last year, about two issues ago. Ric

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mtngun posted this 11 January 2016

Thanks Ric, that's probably the issue that I haven't found time to read yet.  :D

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gpidaho posted this 11 January 2016

mtngun: I very much enjoy reading your posts on alternative coatings and applaud your success, If I under estimated your experience with such then my apologies. When I read of someone using the ASBBDT method to coat it just seems they may need to read up a little to save reinventing the wheel in serious experimentation. Ric and Tech"s FS article addresses the subject very well. I very much hope you can find a way to advance our common hobby. Gp

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454PB posted this 11 January 2016

Here's just one of many video reports on powder coating:

?v=gu7UfKITMF8

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mtngun posted this 11 January 2016

Reading Ric's TFS article now.

When I inquired as to the methodology of their testing, all I got was a blank computer screen; :D:D:D    Exactly !

To size these dry un-lubed bullets required a C&H Magnum press with 18 inch handle and all of my 200 pounds Wow.   I haven't noticed any special problems sizing coated bullets.    I've never laid eyes on a Pacific sizing die but it sounds like yours has issues.   

Ric, how much diameter did your sprayed powder coating add?   Never mind, I found your table -- roughly 0.0015” thickness.  

 the more you do to a bullet after it is cast the larger the group. Odd that sizing/swaging does not seem to hurt the accuracy of jacketed bullets?  But that's another topic for another day.    

OK, so Ric's PC bullets performed poorly compared to his uncoated bullets, at 1350 fps.   No surprise.  

As I see it there are perhaps 3 logical reasons to use a coating.  1) newbies who do not want to tool up to lube bullets,  2)  casual reloaders who are frustrated with leading in their 9mm's and other guns that are not cast-friendly   3)   speed freaks like myself looking for a “trick” for better performance at high velocity.   Ric's application fit none of those categories. Still it is EXCELLENT data nonetheless.   Thank you.:dude:

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Jeff Suever posted this 12 January 2016

In regards to the three reasons to try this, there is a fourth which was my reasoning. Say what you will, but a cleaner shooting revolver makes the wife a happier shooter. Traditional lubes work well, but after 100-300 rounds, they will leave the revolver dirty, which transfers to the hands, etc. For us...no big deal. But for the delicate flowers who accompany us...... As to effort sizing, a bullet cast of range scrap +2% tin and measuring about .360 before coating sizes to .357 in a Lee push through die on a Lee Turret press pretty easy. Much easier than the same bullet of 95/3/2 goes through a Star lubesizer two weeks after it has been cast. Same .357. Sizing PC bullets takes about the same effort as bullets lubed with 45-45-10. Or at least it does for me. That said, I totally agree that more data on accuracy testing for PC needs to be done. I think we can agree they are pretty, relatively easy to produce decent volume and can be shot without leading or wear on the barrel. I plan to do my part on accuracy tests in the coming months. Disclaimer- I'm not a great shot to begin with so looking for other's input as well. I'll have to find that TFS article. mtngun wrote: Reading Ric's TFS article now.

When I inquired as to the methodology of their testing, all I got was a blank computer screen; :D:D:D    Exactly !

To size these dry un-lubed bullets required a C&H Magnum press with 18 inch handle and all of my 200 pounds Wow.   I haven't noticed any special problems sizing coated bullets.    I've never laid eyes on a Pacific sizing die but it sounds like yours has issues.   

Ric, how much diameter did your sprayed powder coating add?   Never mind, I found your table -- roughly 0.0015” thickness.  

 the more you do to a bullet after it is cast the larger the group. Odd that sizing/swaging does not seem to hurt the accuracy of jacketed bullets?  But that's another topic for another day.    

OK, so Ric's PC bullets performed poorly compared to his uncoated bullets, at 1350 fps.   No surprise.  

As I see it there are perhaps 3 logical reasons to use a coating.  1) newbies who do not want to tool up to lube bullets,  2)  casual reloaders who are frustrated with leading in their 9mm's and other guns that are not cast-friendly   3)   speed freaks like myself looking for a “trick” for better performance at high velocity.   Ric's application fit none of those categories. Still it is EXCELLENT data nonetheless.   Thank you.:dude:

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RicinYakima posted this 12 January 2016

mtngun,

Pacific invented the push thru die threaded for the “C” press in the early 1950's, however they were intended to push base first up through the die. Lee started making them when the patent ran out.

The hard ones were dry linotype through a dry die. The guy doing the coating required NO wax, lube or anything on the raw casting. Coated ones sized just fine.

Thanks for the compliment, Techie did a fine job in the coating.

Ric  

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mtngun posted this 12 January 2016

Jeff Suever wrote: I'll have to find that TFS article. TFS 236, July-August 2015.

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mtngun posted this 12 January 2016

RicinYakima wrote: The hard ones were dry linotype through a dry die. The guy doing the coating required NO wax, lube or anything on the raw casting. Coated ones sized just fine. When I pre-size before coating, I wash the die & push stem in gasoline so the bullets are not contaminated with lube.    A little more effort is required when both bullets and die are dry but if you are scraping lead and pushing very hard, something is definitely wrong. 

I can't see much from your photo, other than a small bevel at the entrance, but I would look for a generous, long, gentle, smooth taper at the entrance, because that's where the sizing takes place.   Same goes for lubrisizer dies.   As you know it's common for Lyman & RCBS sizing dies to be stingy with their tapered entrance.

A Buffalo Arms die with absolutely no taper at the entrance.   A guaranteed bullet mangler.

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