Defense Choices

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  • Last Post 12 December 2019
Bisley posted this 11 February 2016

I inherited a 2-inch Smith and Wesson 5-round J-frame in .38 special. It feels too small for my hand but my wife loves it. When it warms up we're going to take range safety classes and get some firing time. Thankfully, this is not an area where you have to carry a gun, although I respect those members of my church who do and I understand their concern.

I stand 6'2” at 185-195 pounds depending on the season. I need something practical.

I see where Ruger has introduced a Lightweight Commander Model, 28 ounces, and I am told it will fit, feed, fire and function with any ammunition you give it including handloads. They are at the top of my price range (800.00 by the time fees and taxes are paid). Remington's Commander model is even pricier and heavier (Closer to four figures). I am not finding many used models of these guns at Bud's Gun Shop, or Gunbroker. What I am finding are Para-ordnance commander-size midels -- church members who have experience told me they jammed with even Winchester White Box .45s. I also see Rangemaster Champion (4” barrel) by The Springfield Armory.

I find used Springfields and Paras listed quite a bit. I would be willing to get a used gun, and have a gunsmith tune it to make it reliable. Do any other members and fellow casters have experience with these guns and what can you guys tell me?

Is the grip size on a J-frame Smith an issue (This is the least expensive option)? Does the Ruger 1911 Lightweight commander really eat everything? What about the Remingtons? They seem heavy, and are the most expensive. Springfield Rangemaster champion and Para-ordnance -- can they take gunsmith tuning to make them reliable and what are the most common problems?

I know that's a lot, but I have time to choose.

Bisley

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dualsport posted this 12 December 2019

You can't go wrong with a .38 S&W Special. Look at the smallest lightest revolvers out there. Practice a lot.

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RicinYakima posted this 12 December 2019

Or you can come stay at my house and hoe in my wife's rose beds. That will toughen up your web.

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Ed Harris posted this 12 December 2019

Another wrinkle I learned on using S&W snubs with the round-butt service stocks and the Tyler T-grip, is to add a couple Gearward RangeBands at the top of the grip frame, anchoring these with a BB-sized dab of Shoe Goo.  Adds little to the bulk of the gun for concealment, but improves the grip and mitigates the "sting" from firing hot loads.  I tried these first on my S&W Model 12 K-frame and have since added them to my Model 37 Airweight Chief's Special and my Model 940 stainless Centennial in 9mm. Will try on the .38-44 Heavy Duty next.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Tom G posted this 12 December 2019

That's why I use it.  I read or saw a report on the study.  I believe it was designed to meet the FBI specifications for them to issue to the their agents. It's designed to penetrate things like a Carhart jacket and then still expand and transfer it's kinetic energy upon entering the body. 

 

I would prefer to carry my own hand loaded ammo that can be tailored to optimize the 3.1 inch barrel length for social loads but those who teach CCW classes all advise not to carry anything that is hand loaded.  They are afraid that it will give a shyster atty. more things to accuse you of like " you made a super dangerous load that caused my client extra trauma" or some such malarky.

 

Tom Gray 

 

 

 

 

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beltfed posted this 11 December 2019

I think the Hornady Critical Defense ammo with the flex tip

has seemingly answered the problem with clothes plugging HPs etc.

????

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max503 posted this 10 December 2019

For 33 years on the job and afterwards I have only three off-duty or concealed carry handguns. A Star PD .45 ACP was my main in the waist gun. A Smith model 49 .38 special was carried in the front pocket of my pants or coat pocket the remainder of the time. For the past 5 years I have carried a Taurus G2 compact 9mm. The theme common to all three of these has been reliability and comfort. 

My ammo:.

45 ACP Speer Lawmen 200gr HP, .
38 Special Federal 158 gr SWCHP +P
9mm is Speer Gold Dot LE Duty 124 gr JHP.

For me a CC gun has to be non-intrusive to carry, like a j frame.  And reliable.  I want to put it in my pocket and forget it.

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Brodie posted this 10 December 2019

Supposedly the pillar in the center of the giant hollow point in the "Black Talon" ammo was supposed to stop or limit the plugging by heavy clothing.  The BT ammo and the same bullets are still out there, but have been re-named so as to confuse the whiners.

B.E.Brickey

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RicinYakima posted this 10 December 2019

Dave, No my perspective is as a FF/Medic through two drug wars in the 1980's and 1990's. All of the semi-auto rounds with HP's plugged up on clothes and never expanded. The LE 158 grains HP +P would expand and all of the 357's. Here in the north country clothing is a big issue. I only worked with two patients with WC hits, both victims by the way, with chest hits and they were hard to keep alive to the ER. My experience has been shot placement, penetration and expansion, if any. Must be why the SWC is still so effective. Thanks, Ric

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David Reiss posted this 10 December 2019

Ric,

My experience WCs for self defense came from years of testing at our PD range. We had access to ballistic gelatin, so I had the opportunity to use testing WCs and almost all the available bullets.

Wadcutters just did not penetrate as much as other bullet styles at the velocity they were commonly loaded. If handloaded you could of course increase the velocity and get much better penetration. But using handloaded ammo for defense gives more fodder to defense or suing attorneys.   

What I also found was that if any clothing and of course the heavier the cloth made it worse, Normal WCs just could not generate much penetration.

HBWCs reversed expanded much to soon contrary to popular belief. Again clothing defeated them easily. 

Since most attackers wear some clothing (but not always as you probably know), they are not a good option. 

I believe the flat nose is it's enemy unless the velocity is up above 900 fps. Back then their were no factory loaded options in that velocity range. Today that may be different with ammo companies like Buffalo Bore. 

PS. - You are always welcome to contradict me any time. With all of the above said, I have always continued testing them and at 1100 fps they are wicked. 

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys, Good Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .

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RicinYakima posted this 10 December 2019

Dave, Several times you have written about NOT using WC ammo for self-defense. Would you explain your reasons for me? Not going argue or take issue, but am curious. Ric

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David Reiss posted this 10 December 2019

For 33 years on the job and afterwards I have only three off-duty or concealed carry handguns. A Star PD .45 ACP was my main in the waist gun. A Smith model 49 .38 special was carried in the front pocket of my pants or coat pocket the remainder of the time. For the past 5 years I have carried a Taurus G2 compact 9mm. The theme common to all three of these has been reliability and comfort. 

My ammo:.

45 ACP Speer Lawmen 200gr HP, .
38 Special Federal 158 gr SWCHP +P
9mm is Speer Gold Dot LE Duty 124 gr JHP.

 

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys, Good Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .

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beltfed posted this 09 December 2019

I agree with everything Tom Gray said,

but my choice, pretty much parallels his, except,

with a Kahr CM9.  Exlt reliability, even shooting 115 gr SWC cast bullet loads

as well as the Hornady Critical Defense FTX and various Ball and HP rounds.

Great smooth trigger and no other appendages besides the slide stop and

mag release.  Wt is only 15 oz.  And I really like the white "Dot/Bar sights

better than 3 dot sights.  Now just took delivery of another CM9 with Night front sight.

 

Also, have an equally performing  Kahr CM40, 16 oz, for greater stopping power.

Price on the Kahr CM series is very reasonable, too.

beltfed/arnie

 

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Tom G posted this 09 December 2019

 Bisley, 

As a retired Sheriiff Sgt. and NRA certified LE firearms instructor, I've had the opportunity to carry lots of different handguns in my career. Also seen firsthand the results of different gunshot wounds.  

Firstly, you need to carry a gun that has enough knockdown power to disable a determined assailant with one or at the most, two hits.

Secondly, you need to have a firearm available at all times if possible. That means you have to be ready to deal with a trade off between firepower and concealability. If you can stand the weight and bulk, the best gun in my estimation is a 45 auto or one of the new tupperware guns in 40 S&W. 

If you carry a gun much you will soon tire of the weight and bulk of a big gun and probably leave it in the drawer where it won't do you any good if the S--T hits the fan. So, you will need to come to some sort of compromise. I'm 77 yrs old now and as I get older, the size of the guns I carry for protection get smaller and smaller.That doesn't mean that they are less lethal.  I've carried a 44 bulldog, a really nice 3 inch Chief's Special in airweight and lately, the best one I've ever carried, a Ruger LC9 light weight single action 9 mm, polimer frame gun with a 3.1 ich barrel. This gun is small enough to carry it in a pocket holster in your pants pocket. It can also be carried inside the waistband and on the outside in a conventional holster. My favorite holster is a pancake holster made by Crossbreed. 

The sights on this gun are very small so I replaced them with a set of fiber optic sights that really stand out in the daylight. They also have tritium inserts that show up in the dark. So, as you can see, it can be used in just about any condition you might run into. Even if you can see your sights, I would caution about shooting in the dark. Before you shoot, you must be sure of what you are shooting at.  

The 9 mm round is arguably not the most powerful manstopper out there but with the advent of the new bullets that will expand readily, this cartridge has gained a large following in both the law enforcement and civilian sector. My choice of carry ammo is the Hornady Critical Defense 115 gr. FTX round. Note: this ammo is in chrome plated cases so the they don't corrode or deteriorate while you are carrying them.  I've tested this round in my LC9 and it works flawlessly. This little gun also runs with just about anything else I shoot through it. I've probably fired way in excess of a thousand cast handloads in it without any problems. 

The thing that sold me on this gun was the quality of the trigger pull. The Ruger engineers really hit a home run with this trigger design. It is light and smooth and has the long travel of most all semi auto striker fired guns. But, it is easy to shoot and very accurate. I've fired it a lot on many IDPA and USPSA courses and the performance of this gun never fails to amaze the other shooters. This gun even feeds the Lee 358-105 SWC bullet in wheel weights. The model I have is the Pro model with no manual safety.. It does have a trigger operated safety with the little bar sticking out of the center of the trigger shoe. I think it is safe as long as you keep your finger off the trigger until ready to fire. Near the end of my LE career, we went to Glocks with the safe trigger and I carried a Glock 19 for about 5 years without incident. My theory is that in a stressful situation like a gunfight, I don't want to be fumbling around taking a safety off when all I have to do is point and shoot. I shoot this gun at least monthly to stay in practice with it but I'm not against someone who rarely shoots and practices having a manual safety. In fact, I'd feel safer around them if they did!! 

Lately i've only seen this model for sale in a stripped down version at very low prices but I still think it is a good viable compromise gun to carry. It can always have a good set of Tritium/fiber optic sights installed to make it a real good carry gun. I would definitely recommend you take a look at this gun and try the trigger before you make your final choice. 

Just my two cents worth...... 

Tom Gray 

Life member of CBA and NRA

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markshere2 posted this 08 December 2019

Necrothreading.....

Full size rugers from the P series are rugged and reliable and affordable used.

I have several .45s in different models for my use.  Bought a couple 9mm models for daughters to use.

All function flawlessly with my cast loads.

They are my bedside guns.

 

My carry gun is a taurus 357 snubby, unless i have to go to an uban area. Then its a glock .40. 

 

  

 

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 31 August 2016

on the light side ...we watch * ncis new orleans * ...and go berserk when agent mcgiver has to go get his heat out of a file cabinet when he leaves to get the bad guys ...

we laugh so hard we forget to take the rest of the episode seriously .

what these new psychological cop shows need is * special agent Dirty Harry * ... wears his dang gun even in the shower ... ha ...

ken

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Eutectic posted this 31 August 2016

If you are fixed on a medium or full size auto, get one used by a police department and use the ammunition they use. Let them do the reliability testing, they will do a better job! I have carried autos and will not carry one until it has fired 200 rounds of the carry ammo without a failure. I do not care if the model has gone 100% for a dozen people, yours may be different. I have carried 22's, 32's and 380s. Currently pocket size 380's are available, so if you want a small auto they are caliber of choice. Personally I like revolvers, and my wife does too. Smith J frames are our choice, they need an aftermarket grip, we use Pachmeyers. If you pocket carry, get a pocket holster. It will keep the gun cleaner and will present it in the pocket so you can draw it easily.

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R. Dupraz posted this 14 February 2016

S&W 2” air weight hammerless 38 Special rated for +P

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Brodie posted this 14 February 2016

I bought a LCR in 38 special about a year after they came out.  My wife likes it but complains about the recoil even with light loads.  So when we practice she does most of it with a 2inch Smith Kit gun in 22 rf.  It has worked pretty well, but I have a little trouble getting her to shoot as often as I would like or to shoot life like targets. Brodie

B.E.Brickey

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Pigslayer posted this 14 February 2016

I have a Taurus snubby six shot, .38 Special revolver that I just love. I have big hands but the grips lay in the palm of my hand really nice. It's very comfortable to shoot and likes wadcutters really well.

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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TRKakaCatWhisperer posted this 13 February 2016

FWIW I have the model 36 chiefs special 5 shot 38spcl. My wife borrowed it often enough I bought her one. Both of us have the grip inserts. Two different types - they fit each of our grips - she's 5-0 and I'm 6-4.

Try several.

When I want something bigger, it's a 5 shot 44 spcl by Taurus. Had the S&W in 44 but the Taurus is MUCH smoother.

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