New load in my Model 94. It is deadly accurate but Im wondering if its a good deer killer, Im kinda new to cast. I am useing a Lee C309 170f mold, a 50-50 mix of wheeleight lead and pure lead, and 22 grains of IMR 4198. Im hunting Vermont deer which can go over 200 pounds. Looking for advise on this setup, ie bullet performance, velocity, any info or opinions. Like i said it is deadly accurate. Thanks, Craig
Is this 3030 load a deer killer?
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- Last Post 07 January 2020
From Onandaga's original post
in this thread:
"Based on Lyman data your load produces 1600 fps. 200 pound Deer need to be hit in the vital with a load producing 1,000 foot pounds on impact for an ethical harvest.
Your load with a 170 gr bullet at 1600 fps only has 966 foot pounds at the muzzle and is not a humane harvest load at any distance.
Your bullet needs 2057 fps to deliver 1,000 foot pounds at 100 yards. That will take 24.3 grains of IMR 4198 to be an ethical harvest 100 yard Deer rifle with your cast 170 gr bullet.
Your alloy is not strong enough for that load level, you will need a BHN 15 alloy like Lyman #2
You sound like you have a nice target load at 1600 fps but that is not a humane Deer load at all unless you are point blank shooting the brain through the eye.. Gary"
Shot placement trumps energgy, but I still agree with Larry.
Within 50 yards his slower .30-30 load with soft alloy will work, but so does my .44-40 and it doesn't need to expand!
I've killed a dozen or so deer with black powder and patched .45-.50 cal. round balls, and a couple with .44-.45 cap & ball revolvers too, but always well inside 50 yards at woods range.
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
Until we have feedback from the deer, it's all conjecture.
Well, Onandaga is no longer with us, but, I think he made some good points on here. I'm surprised he didn't mention bullet alloy, but, I learned from him that Lyman #2 alloy is a very good one for proper "mushrooming" of the bullet, wheel weight alloy varies, linotype tends to shatter, not what you would want on deer. The old Lyman 170 grain flat point bullet is a proven good 30-30 hunting bullet, and with slower powders can be loaded to fully duplicate the ballistics of jacketed 170 grain ammo, in most cases.
"Use enough gun" - Robert Ruark
I any 30 caliber I prefer to keep muzzle velocity above 1800 fps. I know you didn't ask about your bullet choice but the RCBS 180 FN (really about 190 grains) is my preferred hunting bullet for a 30-30 or a 30-06. Having said that there are many suitable bullet choices.
Brodie, my last post was meant to be my last comment on the subject in the sprit of peace on the forum, but you've said a couple of things that need to be addressed.
If you don't care then discontinue public discourse on the matter.
Insofar as the idea of Onandaga, or any other member, is or will be, either publicly or privately, lobbied for banning by myself, is something that has not, and will not be, even remotely suggested.
You suggesting it is the first hint of such an idea and is the worst kind of aspersion. By posting it you create the suggestion that my 3 or 4 posts to him have been an unrelenting witch hunt. That's dirty pool and I expect this to be the last time for it.
Stay away from mirrors Amish.
I guess it is true what they say about pigs: ” Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." I guess that I will have to quit.
I don't care about your differences with Gary's ideas, beliefs, and attitudes. If you will bother to notice I disagree with him a lot. But, I don't make it personal. If you want him thrown out of here don't talk to me about it. Go to the board or John A. Be careful though they just might consider the source.
By the way: If you are Amish then what are you doing on a computer? If you aren't Amish; where can I get some of these religious sect golf balls you claim to shoot? Brodie
You make it sound as if I personally dog pile on Garry at the drop off the hat. I suggest you review my posts. (There is one missing from when I blasted him for telling a member his accuracy problems were because he was a crappy shot, among other things.).
I could care less about what opinion he espouses, but ANYTIME I see him or anyone else posting in an arrogant, obtuse, deprecating, insulting manner, I GUARENTEE I will call them on it. When he or any other repeatedly hammers on with some Wikipedia vomitus that defies reality, EXPECT A REALITY CHECK.
If you have not already done so, I would suggest you put me on “Ignore".
Dear Amish, We are all entitled to our beliefs and opinions whether they coincide with how others feel or don't. What distresses me is not your opinion, but the idea that Gary or I or LMG or anybody else in the whole world MUST AGREE WITH YOU. Why can't you just let it drop instead of continuing to pound on somebody who doesn't agree with you? Must all of us recognize that you are the ultimate authority on all things?
This is a forum where not everybody is going to agree all the time, and continuing to pound on a person because they don't see it your way is rude, irresponsible, and just down right stupid. Be enough of a gentleman to just let it go. The other guy may be wrong or it may be you or both of you may just have your heads where a Proctologist practices medicine.
Indeed. He was banned from the other cast boolit forum for his behavior.
There is a reason you guys don't go to bars and pick fights. People with a snoot on and in person tend to hit. Not just throw words around.
Yeah, you disagree. You have made your points. Let it lie.
I don't know about everybody else: I did not take a poll. But, I for one have heard enough of your opinions on this subject. Please, before this becomes very uncivil , let it lie. We all know how you feel on this subject. Act like grownups for cripes sake and just walk away without throwing taunts back over you shoulders.
I am sorry you're distressed by the discussion. Maybe you'd best not read this thread anymore, it's bad for your blood pressure! :P
The crux of the matter is, as long as there is a group that includes “That One Guy” who thinks he knows so much, but nearly EVERYONE disagrees with him, then this kind of thread is inevitable. Its always been that way, it's human nature to only put up with so much hocum before the group self adjusts the BS levels, and I don't see much changing anytime soon.
Sad, but true.
I've shot deer with a 6.5X55 at under 1700 fps. Killed them just as dead as anything else. They travel about thirty yards, and are done. Just put the bullet where it needs to go. A hole through the lungs works.
There is a reason you guys don't go to bars and pick fights. People with a snoot on and in person tend to hit. Not just throw words around. Yeah, you disagree. You have made your points. Let it lie. I don't know about everybody else: I did not take a poll. But, I for one have heard enough of your opinions on this subject. Please, before this becomes very uncivil , let it lie. We all know how you feel on this subject. Act like grownups for cripes sake and just walk away without throwing taunts back over you shoulders. Brodie
There is a difference between hunting and sniping. I suggest you learn it. I would not shoot at a deer at two hundred yards when I can get within 20 yards on the ground and kill it with a bow or handgun with a cast bullet. Your references pertain to jacketed bullets and novice sport hunters. I'm also old enough to have read the Herter's catalogs and some of their claims............
I suppose kicking this horse depends on those who want to sell the idea of magic numbers despite the evidence. Maybe something like that holds more water with very small calibers, but it's a complete farce where larger calibers are concerned. And where would that leave us with mid sized calibers such as the one mentioned? I don't claim to be any sort of expert and I'm here for a conversation. But I'll call BS when I see it. And I'm calling it.
Now that we have all proved that WE ARE ALL RIGHT AND RIGHTEOUS can we stop beating this poor horse. It died two pages ago. Brodie
To be fair I was quite skeptical of a ball when I bought my .50 cal muzzleloader. By modern thinking (not an exact number necessary, and not one of 1000 ft/lbs) a projectile with such a poor sectional density and with a poor ballistic coefficiency that sheds velocity rapidly, there was no way I could understand how this could be exceptable beyond 50 yds. I spent time and asked questions and sought evidence and found it in abundance. A ball with barely more than 300 ft/lbs goes clean through medium game beyond 125 yds and can and will drop them DRT with a solid hit. No more tracking was necessary compared to modern stuff as we all know that even a good hit with a good bullet may still leave you with some tracking to do. I still can't get over this absurd 1000 ft/lb rule as it would even dismiss most commercial .44 magnum ammo, which is a ludicrous idea. Even the .357 mag has been shown to be effective, though most consider it minimal.
To be clear the projectiles I'm talking about are of a much larger caliber. Even if these get no expansion, which after about 75 yds tends not to, they still leave a nice wound size. The round ball has killed animals just fine with much less energy than this magic 1000 number. It's absolutely absurd to say a magic number must be reached when history (modern too) has shown it to be a false statement.
Even the .45 Colt and .44-40 have killed plenty of critters and people effectively, quickly, and humanely and comes nowhere near this magic number. But I guess it just doesn't work well either since voodoo hasn't been used...
I have no idea if a much smaller caliber, such as the suggested load, would be a quick enough killer. I'd think it would be adequate for close shots, but I'd prefer something more substantial not knowing for certain.
Ballistics gel can be made (a bit pricey) and given a way to see what might be expected as far as wounding and penetration. Even wet phone books could give an idea. Better than guessing...
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