Production Class 308

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Scearcy posted this 20 February 2016

I have been participating in a wrinkled bullet accuracy test in another thread.  My rifle for this test was a newly acquired CZ varmint weight 308.  The rifle was virtually unfired.  the first thing I did was to load 60 rounds of jacketed bullets to see if I could establish that I would not be wasting my time trying to get the rifle to shoot.  Even though I was not using match bullets, I was able to establish an 8 group agg of .81". The wrinkled bullet test consisted of 75 rounds using one bullet and one powder charge in order to keep everything consistent other than the bullet quality.  The pertinent part of that experience was that grand agg for all 75 shots (15 groups) was just over 2".  That is not good enough if I am going to shoot this rifle in matches this summer.   I am planning to shoot 12 different loads.  Hopefully by applying a little experience and a little research, I can quickly find out what this rifle likes (or not as the case may be). THIS IS NOT A TUTORIAL OR A RECOMMENDED APPROACH TO ANYTHING.  I just thought we might have fun seeing what story 12 groups from an “inexperienced” rifle could tell.

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Scearcy posted this 20 February 2016

I used the same bullet for the first three groups I will show.  That bullet is the Lyman 311299.  It is sized 311 and tumble lubed.  The powder charges I started with are 20 gr of IMR 4759, 16.5 gr of A 2400, and 21 gr of IMR 4227.  All load use a Federal standard primer.  Here is the first target:

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Scearcy posted this 20 February 2016

The writing does not show real clearly in that first picture but that is 21 Gr of 4227.  The aggregate group size is 2.5". The second picture has two groups.  The top group is 20 gr of 4759.  Note that the shot to the far right was the first shot of the thirty fired today.  The barrel was clean and the temp was just above freezing.  An alibi perhaps?  While the target is not to stellar, the final 6 shots went into the cluster in the upper left.  By that time the barrel was warmed up. The bottom target if 16.5 gr of 2400.  I like what I see here.  FWIW this target would score 92 on a CBA target. I will keep 4759 and 2400 in this test for at least one more bullet.  I think I will replace 4227 with N135 for the next three targets.  The next two bullets I am planning to test are the Saeco 315, which I use alot in the 3006, and the NOE 312160FN which is the Harris bullet.  The Harris bullet (Ed, I hope its ok to refer to the bullet using your name.) shot well for me last summer in a different 308. If all goes well I will shoot three more groups tomorrow.

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Scearcy posted this 20 February 2016

No more orange background! Sorry!

Jim

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Scearcy posted this 21 February 2016

I thought a graphic would be more useful than my bad pictures.  This is the 311299 bullet with 16.5 gr of 2400 powder.  The bullet holes are only 2/3 of their correct size if they were to scale.

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Scearcy posted this 21 February 2016

I quickly become obsessed by these projects.  Last night I was enjoying a beverage and thinking about what might be a reasonable benchmark for success when trying to get a new Production rifle up to speed.  I am numbers geek as I have mentioned before so I turned to the data last night.  A good place to start is always with the results of the Nationals.  I gathered TFS for Nov/Dec from 2011 to 2015.  To keep things simple I looked only at 10 shot - 100 yd groups.  Since my rifle will be a Production class rifle, that is the data I collected.  By the way, the best Hunter rifle shooters are doing nearly as well and the heavier Production rifles. Anyhow I calculated the average of the 3 best 100 yd, 10 shot aggs from each of these five years - 15 data points.  I am always surprised by the real world results in our sport.  The best three shooters for 5 years in a row achieved a 1.375” 10 shot agg on average.  The average of the BEST agg from each year was 1.211". Of course 5 shot groups, with which we are more familiar, run smaller.  Joe B has tracked these numbers I believe.  So have I as there are too many cold winter nights here in Minnesota.  A ratio of about 1.3 is a pretty good guess.  In other words a 1.3” 10 shot agg and a 1” 5 shot agg are similar accuracy standards statistically speaking.

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Scearcy posted this 21 February 2016

:( The temperature today is 32 degrees and it feels colder.  I had sunlight and no wind for the first group.  If you have never shot with snow mirage, try it some time.  That was the group using 2400 as the powder.  You will see vertical stringing in that group.  Then the clouds rolled in with a slight breeze.  The mirage problems, other than a little barrel mirage disappeared. I have marked two shots with arrows.  These were called “out due to shooter incompetence". I may overlay all three groups on a graphic this evening.  I did not shoot a fouler or two before each group and it seemed as though the first shot was always out a bit. Once again 16.5 gr of 2400 produced the best group.  I think I can safely remove the Saeco 315 bullet from further consideration.

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RicinYakima posted this 21 February 2016

JHS, you may wish to consider reducing the A2400 load to 15.5 grains for a couple of trials. 16 grains is my maximum accuracy load in the 30/06 for 100 yards. Ric

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45 2.1 posted this 21 February 2016

Nice test procedure. I've had excellent luck with Unique. For the charge, go to a Lyman manual and look up the maximum charge for the bullet/weight you are using. Start at 0.5 gr. under that and work up slowly toward maximum. Somewhere in there will probably be a sweet spot.

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frnkeore posted this 22 February 2016

If you not using pistol primers with the 4759, please do. Rem 2 1/2 (first choise) and Fed 150's. Your ES should reduce with those primers.

My best load of 4759, in this size case is 18.5

Frank

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Scearcy posted this 22 February 2016

Good morning everyone! I have been waiting for some input.

Ric - 16.5 gr gives a sharp crack and no soot on the cases so I am clearly getting good ignition. The Lyman manual contains some very heavy charges for 2400 but I knew I didn't want to go much hotter. I will try 15.5 gr -probably in phase 2 when I am down to a reasonable number of powders and bullets.

45 2.1 - I have never tried unique in any 308. Later this week I am going to try the Lyman 311672 bullet. I'll sneak in a load of unique.

Frank - 18.5 gr has always been my go to load - I would guess I have shot 10,000 of them over the last 20 years. I thought I could see signs of ignition problems with that load during the wrinkled bullet test. All 90 shots that I fired for that load were 18.5 gr of 4759. This heavier load has been a first for me.

I have never tried pistol primers. The weather is cold here right now. Is there any chance pistol primers will increase the chance of poor ignition?

I am disappointed that none of these first 7 loads (including the wrinkled bullet test) have done very well. At the risk of unleashing a fire storm, I would be interested in your opinions about using tumble lube in below freezing weather. I am not getting any leading but the first shot of each string, after letting the barrel cool 5 minutes or so, seems to be inch away from the ultimate center of the group. The next time out I am probably going to dry brush between each string and then first 1 fouler to soften things up before the record shot. Please before the angry comments start, remember this is all an experiment with a new brand of rifle.

Once again good morning everyone.

Jim

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Larry Gibson posted this 22 February 2016

JHS   "I would be interested in your opinions about using tumble lube in below freezing weather. I am not getting any leading but the first shot of each string, after letting the barrel cool 5 minutes or so, seems to be inch away from the ultimate center of the group."   I used to shoot in cold weather much of the time and found the same thing; 1st shot after barrel and fouling cooled/hardened would be out of the group.   After having tried everything including dry brushing I found that just shooting a fouler into the sighter target before starting the new group was the best solution. I use reject bullets for such “foulers".   This last week I tested some loads in my own “Production Class” rifle; a M70 varmint .308W.  However, since I modified the barrel by turning it down for the front sight base the rifle would actually be in “Heavy Rifle” class now.  I decided, based on the last year+ worth of testing and experience with the .308W and 30x60 XCB cartridges using the 30 XCB bullet to step outside of the “what has always been done in CBA matches” and use what has proven very successful for cast bullet accuracy.   The bullets were cast of #2 alloy, WQ'd, culled for any defect and weight sorted.  Instead of using a heavier bullet I used a lighter weight bullet.  Instead of shooting the bullets slower I shot them faster.  Instead of using the faster burning powders I used slower burning powders. I tested 5 different powder charges each of 2 different powders with 10 shot test strings and met with very good success.  With one powder I got 3 groups right at moa (100 yards).  With the other powder I got 2 groups under moa.    No intent at criticism of what CBA match shooters are doing.  I'm just providing information on what is working for me.   Here is the rifle;    

Concealment is not cover.........

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Larry Gibson posted this 22 February 2016

Here are the targets.  Interesting to note in the posted results from the Nationals last year the Agg for the 2 ten shot 100 yard groups for the winner of the Hvy Rifle class was .847".  for the Pro rifle class it was 1.439".  Taking the Agg of the 2 sub moa groups (same powder just .5 gr difference) shown it is .823".  

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Larry Gibson posted this 22 February 2016

Other powder groups   LMG    

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Scearcy posted this 22 February 2016

LMGHi I expected to hear from you regarding the lube. 1 fouling shot - I am in! I don't own the 30 XCB mold - yet.  I may have to order one if the bullet I am shooting today disappoints. The RL22 groups are impressive. Jim

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Scearcy posted this 22 February 2016

I just loaded the test rounds for today.  The bullet is the NOE 312-160  I used this bullet in last years Region 5 match.  It shot very well out of my old Hunter rifle.  Then I got distracted by a different caliber for the rest of the season and I never went back to the 308. I am going to try H4198, Rx7 and 5744.  I have had good success with 4198 in the past.  I have had mediocre results with Rx7 and I have never tried 5744 before.   Jim

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OU812 posted this 22 February 2016

LMG, That Winchester is a cool looking rifle. I almost purchased one back when they were making them. Good shooting!

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OU812 posted this 22 February 2016

Do you have a good strait barrel? One that doesn't warp when heated (shifting groups).

http://65br.com/data_files/optical%20collimation%20gage,%20us3920335.pdf>http://65br.com/datafiles/optical%20collimation%20gage,%20us3920335.pdf

...

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Tom Acheson posted this 22 February 2016

The suggestion to switch to large pistol primers caught my eye. This is a tactic that the black powder cartridge rifle shooters have been employing for several years. Move away from the rifle primers and go to the pistol primers. Might be a valid suggestion for smokeless powders.

Varget and N-135 have worked well for me in my .308 as well as SR-4759.

Tom

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Larry Gibson posted this 22 February 2016

JHS   The lube I use is White Label 2500+.  I did an extensive test of numerous lubes at high velocity (2600 fps) and the 2500+ provided the best accuracy.  I have subsequently used it upwards of 3100 fps with no leading and excellent accuracy in the 30x60 XZCB at 2900 fps.   The instrumental velocities (15' from muzzle with Oehler M35P) for the RL22 loads were 2358 fps (35 fps ES and 13 fps SD) and 2363 fps (61 fps ES and 17 fps SD).    For the H4831SC loads the velocities were2431 fps (41 fps ES and 15 fps SD), 2450 fps (42 fps ES and 12 fps SD) and 2491 fps (45 fps ES and 12 fps SD).   LMG

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Larry Gibson posted this 22 February 2016

OU812 wrote: Do you have a good strait barrel? One that doesn't warp when heated (shifting groups).


The barrel doesn't warp when heated.  I got the rifle and modified some years back for NRA long range match shooting; primarily 600 to 1000 yards.  I D&T'd the action for a base mount for the Redfield Palma rear sight w/Gehmann aperture and turned the front of the barrel for the front sight base for use with the Tompkins aperture sight with level.  The bottom of the forend was inletted for an accessory rail for the sling hand stop.  I pillar bedded the action.  The trigger was tweaked to break very cleanly at 18 ounces. I've put a little over 3000 rounds through the barrel and held my own shooting High Master scores and winning a Washington State Championship with it.  In those long range matches 15 or 20 shots are fired for record in 15 or 20 minutes + an additional minute per sighter if allowed.  The barrel did not warp when heated up during any of those strings.   The scope on the M70 now is a Bausch & Lomb Elite 4000 6x24 with 1/8 moa adjustments and a duplex reticle.   I will probably break down and blubber when the barrel goes........   LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

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