Production Class 308

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Scearcy posted this 20 February 2016

I have been participating in a wrinkled bullet accuracy test in another thread.  My rifle for this test was a newly acquired CZ varmint weight 308.  The rifle was virtually unfired.  the first thing I did was to load 60 rounds of jacketed bullets to see if I could establish that I would not be wasting my time trying to get the rifle to shoot.  Even though I was not using match bullets, I was able to establish an 8 group agg of .81". The wrinkled bullet test consisted of 75 rounds using one bullet and one powder charge in order to keep everything consistent other than the bullet quality.  The pertinent part of that experience was that grand agg for all 75 shots (15 groups) was just over 2".  That is not good enough if I am going to shoot this rifle in matches this summer.   I am planning to shoot 12 different loads.  Hopefully by applying a little experience and a little research, I can quickly find out what this rifle likes (or not as the case may be). THIS IS NOT A TUTORIAL OR A RECOMMENDED APPROACH TO ANYTHING.  I just thought we might have fun seeing what story 12 groups from an “inexperienced” rifle could tell.

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Scearcy posted this 20 February 2016

I used the same bullet for the first three groups I will show.  That bullet is the Lyman 311299.  It is sized 311 and tumble lubed.  The powder charges I started with are 20 gr of IMR 4759, 16.5 gr of A 2400, and 21 gr of IMR 4227.  All load use a Federal standard primer.  Here is the first target:

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Scearcy posted this 20 February 2016

The writing does not show real clearly in that first picture but that is 21 Gr of 4227.  The aggregate group size is 2.5". The second picture has two groups.  The top group is 20 gr of 4759.  Note that the shot to the far right was the first shot of the thirty fired today.  The barrel was clean and the temp was just above freezing.  An alibi perhaps?  While the target is not to stellar, the final 6 shots went into the cluster in the upper left.  By that time the barrel was warmed up. The bottom target if 16.5 gr of 2400.  I like what I see here.  FWIW this target would score 92 on a CBA target. I will keep 4759 and 2400 in this test for at least one more bullet.  I think I will replace 4227 with N135 for the next three targets.  The next two bullets I am planning to test are the Saeco 315, which I use alot in the 3006, and the NOE 312160FN which is the Harris bullet.  The Harris bullet (Ed, I hope its ok to refer to the bullet using your name.) shot well for me last summer in a different 308. If all goes well I will shoot three more groups tomorrow.

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Scearcy posted this 20 February 2016

No more orange background! Sorry!

Jim

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Scearcy posted this 21 February 2016

I thought a graphic would be more useful than my bad pictures.  This is the 311299 bullet with 16.5 gr of 2400 powder.  The bullet holes are only 2/3 of their correct size if they were to scale.

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Scearcy posted this 21 February 2016

I quickly become obsessed by these projects.  Last night I was enjoying a beverage and thinking about what might be a reasonable benchmark for success when trying to get a new Production rifle up to speed.  I am numbers geek as I have mentioned before so I turned to the data last night.  A good place to start is always with the results of the Nationals.  I gathered TFS for Nov/Dec from 2011 to 2015.  To keep things simple I looked only at 10 shot - 100 yd groups.  Since my rifle will be a Production class rifle, that is the data I collected.  By the way, the best Hunter rifle shooters are doing nearly as well and the heavier Production rifles. Anyhow I calculated the average of the 3 best 100 yd, 10 shot aggs from each of these five years - 15 data points.  I am always surprised by the real world results in our sport.  The best three shooters for 5 years in a row achieved a 1.375” 10 shot agg on average.  The average of the BEST agg from each year was 1.211". Of course 5 shot groups, with which we are more familiar, run smaller.  Joe B has tracked these numbers I believe.  So have I as there are too many cold winter nights here in Minnesota.  A ratio of about 1.3 is a pretty good guess.  In other words a 1.3” 10 shot agg and a 1” 5 shot agg are similar accuracy standards statistically speaking.

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Scearcy posted this 21 February 2016

:( The temperature today is 32 degrees and it feels colder.  I had sunlight and no wind for the first group.  If you have never shot with snow mirage, try it some time.  That was the group using 2400 as the powder.  You will see vertical stringing in that group.  Then the clouds rolled in with a slight breeze.  The mirage problems, other than a little barrel mirage disappeared. I have marked two shots with arrows.  These were called “out due to shooter incompetence". I may overlay all three groups on a graphic this evening.  I did not shoot a fouler or two before each group and it seemed as though the first shot was always out a bit. Once again 16.5 gr of 2400 produced the best group.  I think I can safely remove the Saeco 315 bullet from further consideration.

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RicinYakima posted this 21 February 2016

JHS, you may wish to consider reducing the A2400 load to 15.5 grains for a couple of trials. 16 grains is my maximum accuracy load in the 30/06 for 100 yards. Ric

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45 2.1 posted this 21 February 2016

Nice test procedure. I've had excellent luck with Unique. For the charge, go to a Lyman manual and look up the maximum charge for the bullet/weight you are using. Start at 0.5 gr. under that and work up slowly toward maximum. Somewhere in there will probably be a sweet spot.

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frnkeore posted this 22 February 2016

If you not using pistol primers with the 4759, please do. Rem 2 1/2 (first choise) and Fed 150's. Your ES should reduce with those primers.

My best load of 4759, in this size case is 18.5

Frank

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Scearcy posted this 22 February 2016

Good morning everyone! I have been waiting for some input.

Ric - 16.5 gr gives a sharp crack and no soot on the cases so I am clearly getting good ignition. The Lyman manual contains some very heavy charges for 2400 but I knew I didn't want to go much hotter. I will try 15.5 gr -probably in phase 2 when I am down to a reasonable number of powders and bullets.

45 2.1 - I have never tried unique in any 308. Later this week I am going to try the Lyman 311672 bullet. I'll sneak in a load of unique.

Frank - 18.5 gr has always been my go to load - I would guess I have shot 10,000 of them over the last 20 years. I thought I could see signs of ignition problems with that load during the wrinkled bullet test. All 90 shots that I fired for that load were 18.5 gr of 4759. This heavier load has been a first for me.

I have never tried pistol primers. The weather is cold here right now. Is there any chance pistol primers will increase the chance of poor ignition?

I am disappointed that none of these first 7 loads (including the wrinkled bullet test) have done very well. At the risk of unleashing a fire storm, I would be interested in your opinions about using tumble lube in below freezing weather. I am not getting any leading but the first shot of each string, after letting the barrel cool 5 minutes or so, seems to be inch away from the ultimate center of the group. The next time out I am probably going to dry brush between each string and then first 1 fouler to soften things up before the record shot. Please before the angry comments start, remember this is all an experiment with a new brand of rifle.

Once again good morning everyone.

Jim

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Larry Gibson posted this 22 February 2016

JHS   "I would be interested in your opinions about using tumble lube in below freezing weather. I am not getting any leading but the first shot of each string, after letting the barrel cool 5 minutes or so, seems to be inch away from the ultimate center of the group."   I used to shoot in cold weather much of the time and found the same thing; 1st shot after barrel and fouling cooled/hardened would be out of the group.   After having tried everything including dry brushing I found that just shooting a fouler into the sighter target before starting the new group was the best solution. I use reject bullets for such “foulers".   This last week I tested some loads in my own “Production Class” rifle; a M70 varmint .308W.  However, since I modified the barrel by turning it down for the front sight base the rifle would actually be in “Heavy Rifle” class now.  I decided, based on the last year+ worth of testing and experience with the .308W and 30x60 XCB cartridges using the 30 XCB bullet to step outside of the “what has always been done in CBA matches” and use what has proven very successful for cast bullet accuracy.   The bullets were cast of #2 alloy, WQ'd, culled for any defect and weight sorted.  Instead of using a heavier bullet I used a lighter weight bullet.  Instead of shooting the bullets slower I shot them faster.  Instead of using the faster burning powders I used slower burning powders. I tested 5 different powder charges each of 2 different powders with 10 shot test strings and met with very good success.  With one powder I got 3 groups right at moa (100 yards).  With the other powder I got 2 groups under moa.    No intent at criticism of what CBA match shooters are doing.  I'm just providing information on what is working for me.   Here is the rifle;    

Concealment is not cover.........

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Larry Gibson posted this 22 February 2016

Here are the targets.  Interesting to note in the posted results from the Nationals last year the Agg for the 2 ten shot 100 yard groups for the winner of the Hvy Rifle class was .847".  for the Pro rifle class it was 1.439".  Taking the Agg of the 2 sub moa groups (same powder just .5 gr difference) shown it is .823".  

Concealment is not cover.........

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Larry Gibson posted this 22 February 2016

Other powder groups   LMG    

Concealment is not cover.........

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Scearcy posted this 22 February 2016

LMGHi I expected to hear from you regarding the lube. 1 fouling shot - I am in! I don't own the 30 XCB mold - yet.  I may have to order one if the bullet I am shooting today disappoints. The RL22 groups are impressive. Jim

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Scearcy posted this 22 February 2016

I just loaded the test rounds for today.  The bullet is the NOE 312-160  I used this bullet in last years Region 5 match.  It shot very well out of my old Hunter rifle.  Then I got distracted by a different caliber for the rest of the season and I never went back to the 308. I am going to try H4198, Rx7 and 5744.  I have had good success with 4198 in the past.  I have had mediocre results with Rx7 and I have never tried 5744 before.   Jim

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OU812 posted this 22 February 2016

LMG, That Winchester is a cool looking rifle. I almost purchased one back when they were making them. Good shooting!

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OU812 posted this 22 February 2016

Do you have a good strait barrel? One that doesn't warp when heated (shifting groups).

http://65br.com/data_files/optical%20collimation%20gage,%20us3920335.pdf>http://65br.com/datafiles/optical%20collimation%20gage,%20us3920335.pdf

...

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Tom Acheson posted this 22 February 2016

The suggestion to switch to large pistol primers caught my eye. This is a tactic that the black powder cartridge rifle shooters have been employing for several years. Move away from the rifle primers and go to the pistol primers. Might be a valid suggestion for smokeless powders.

Varget and N-135 have worked well for me in my .308 as well as SR-4759.

Tom

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Larry Gibson posted this 22 February 2016

JHS   The lube I use is White Label 2500+.  I did an extensive test of numerous lubes at high velocity (2600 fps) and the 2500+ provided the best accuracy.  I have subsequently used it upwards of 3100 fps with no leading and excellent accuracy in the 30x60 XZCB at 2900 fps.   The instrumental velocities (15' from muzzle with Oehler M35P) for the RL22 loads were 2358 fps (35 fps ES and 13 fps SD) and 2363 fps (61 fps ES and 17 fps SD).    For the H4831SC loads the velocities were2431 fps (41 fps ES and 15 fps SD), 2450 fps (42 fps ES and 12 fps SD) and 2491 fps (45 fps ES and 12 fps SD).   LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

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Larry Gibson posted this 22 February 2016

OU812 wrote: Do you have a good strait barrel? One that doesn't warp when heated (shifting groups).


The barrel doesn't warp when heated.  I got the rifle and modified some years back for NRA long range match shooting; primarily 600 to 1000 yards.  I D&T'd the action for a base mount for the Redfield Palma rear sight w/Gehmann aperture and turned the front of the barrel for the front sight base for use with the Tompkins aperture sight with level.  The bottom of the forend was inletted for an accessory rail for the sling hand stop.  I pillar bedded the action.  The trigger was tweaked to break very cleanly at 18 ounces. I've put a little over 3000 rounds through the barrel and held my own shooting High Master scores and winning a Washington State Championship with it.  In those long range matches 15 or 20 shots are fired for record in 15 or 20 minutes + an additional minute per sighter if allowed.  The barrel did not warp when heated up during any of those strings.   The scope on the M70 now is a Bausch & Lomb Elite 4000 6x24 with 1/8 moa adjustments and a duplex reticle.   I will probably break down and blubber when the barrel goes........   LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

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frnkeore posted this 22 February 2016

4759 is a uncoated power and easy to ignite. Though easy to ignite, it still needs pressure to totally burn.

I've used 4759 since the 80's and Rem 1 1/2 & 2 1/2 always produced better accuracy that any of the rifle primers.

Also, since the 80's, when I started shooting BP, primers went from pistol to magums, then back to pistol and now pistol primers with a paper wad under them. While Slug guns never changed from Rem 1 1/2's.

Frank

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Scearcy posted this 22 February 2016

Today's groups are shown below.  All of these were using the NOE 312160.  The powders are written on each group.  There are 10 strikes on each target although some of them are hard to find.  I think this is a case where group size doesn't tell the whole story.  I will be using 5744 again.  The strike at 9 oclock was the second shot.  The shot a 3 oclock was the first shot.  The final 8 went in between. By the way it was 28 degrees with a 5-10 mph breeze at 8 oclock.  Mirage was not a problem.  Does cold weather impact the accuracy capability of a cast bullet?? Don't know I guess.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 22 February 2016

fouling shots ... playing with lubes ... i found that some throw the first shot(s) further out than others .... so i extrapolate that shots per minute might be important . in my 22 rf shooting, in several ... all ... barrels i found i had to shoot at least one shot a minute or risk a ” flyer ” ... if the wind wasn't right, i shot one into the dirt before a record shot . ...

you hear a lot to let the barrel cool between shots .... maybe not with lubed cast bullets ....

something else yet again ... heh

ken

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Scearcy posted this 22 February 2016

WE all like to look at rifles.  Here is the CZ bad boy.  The rifle is absolutely bone stock.  As far as I know, the action has never been out of the receiver.  The trigger is very good.  The stock design is not so good for a bench rifle.  The barrel rides cleanly in the stock.  All in all it is a nice rifle, BUT WILL IT SHOOT?

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 22 February 2016

CZ=it will shoot .

oh ... on your saeco mold ... i notice nice round groups ... even tho they are now 2.5 inches ..... there is something good about round groups ... don't throw it out yet ...

ken

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Scearcy posted this 22 February 2016

Ken Nice round holes!!!  :D I scored the 312160 bullet / 20 gr 5744 combination.  That group would be a 93 on our CBA targets. I can't help thinking seriously about pistol primers.  That would be so easy to test. Jim

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Brodie posted this 23 February 2016

JHS Said:By the way it was 28 degrees with a 5-10 mph breeze at 8 oclock.  Mirage was not a problem.  Does cold weather impact the accuracy capability of a cast bullet?? Don't know I guess.

I remember reading reports and having trouble myself back in the late 60's and early 70s'.  I think that the old very waxy lubes especially Lyman black lube kinda went to heck when the temp dropped below freezing.  I don't know about today's lubes using Alox and the like. Brodie

B.E.Brickey

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OU812 posted this 23 February 2016

LMG wrote: OU812 wrote: Do you have a good strait barrel? One that doesn't warp when heated (shifting groups).


The barrel doesn't warp when heated.  I got the rifle and modified some years back for NRA long range match shooting; primarily 600 to 1000 yards.  I D&T'd the action for a base mount for the Redfield Palma rear sight w/Gehmann aperture and turned the front of the barrel for the front sight base for use with the Tompkins aperture sight with level.  The bottom of the forend was inletted for an accessory rail for the sling hand stop.  I pillar bedded the action.  The trigger was tweaked to break very cleanly at 18 ounces. I've put a little over 3000 rounds through the barrel and held my own shooting High Master scores and winning a Washington State Championship with it.  In those long range matches 15 or 20 shots are fired for record in 15 or 20 minutes + an additional minute per sighter if allowed.  The barrel did not warp when heated up during any of those strings.   The scope on the M70 now is a Bausch & Lomb Elite 4000 6x24 with 1/8 moa adjustments and a duplex reticle.   I will probably break down and blubber when the barrel goes........   LMG Larry, I just threw that question out their for everyone to think about. It is very obvious by looking at your targets that your Winchester's barrel/bore is strait (maybe) and performing well.

I hear that the last six inches of the bore is most important.

...

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OU812 posted this 23 February 2016

JHS,

That is a beautiful 308. What is the rate of twist? How many grooves?

BTW cold weather with slight breeze will reduce mirage. The slight breeze blows heat waves away from barrel and in front of scope. I have heard of guys using a fan in summer time to blow mirage away from scope and barrel.

....

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Scearcy posted this 23 February 2016

The weather today was 34 degrees with mixed light precipitation with a 10 mph breeze at 9 0'clock.  I shot 45 shots in a continuous cadence today with one notable break.  More on the break later.  I changed 4 things today.  First I shot 4 - 10 shot groups and then overlaid them into 2 - 20 shot groups.  Second, the reason I did this was that I wanted to test pistol primers vs rifle primers. Hence I shot 2 - 10 shot groups of each.  I have labeled the targets below in the order fired.  I think the order is important.  I should also mention that I changed the rifle primer.  I had been using Federals for all of the testing I have posted here including the wrinkled bullet test. I had a brick of these that I had gotten from a friend.  He had gotten them from a friend of his widow.  before that we don't know.  They were old and I wanted to use them up. The groups I have been recording the past three weeks have been poor.  I was beginning to suspect primers among other things and yesterday I had two misfires.  Today I switched to some newer primers. I also changed the bullet.  Today I used the Accurate 31-200 NR.  The groups are labelled with their sequence number and also with their primer type.

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Scearcy posted this 23 February 2016

Notice that will the second group had approx the same spread as the first, it began to tighten in the center.

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Scearcy posted this 23 February 2016

These two targets are interesting.  The first two shots are the first two of the group (group 3).  The 7 of the next 8 went through one SMALL hole as you can see.  I was interrupted after shot number 5  when the local police arms instructor showed up with two new officers.  I was allow to stay but there was a 20 minute break in my firing sequence.  I had one fouler left which was not enough to rewarm the barrel. The next shot (#6 on the target) went out way low and right. the point of impact resettled by the7th shot and the last 4 went right back through the small hole. The last target was shot in the company of two young officers learning how to handle their 14” M-4s.  I lost concentration and put one out of that group.  We will get back to rifle primers vs pistol primers but the progression of the targets with time really caught my attention. I think that from the middle of group 2 on was the first time I have had the barrel warm enough since I started these tests in mid January.  If this is true, it may mean that I need to try another lube that may be less sensitive to freezing weather ??????  I don't know but I am going to try another lube. Now I need to confess something.  I have been shooting this test with a coffee can of mixed brass.  Federal, Remington, Winchester, its all there.  Some are old and some are not so old.  Todays batch in particular really had uneven neck tension.  We I get to the final powders and bullets, I will get out the Lapua brass so that we remove that variable.

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Scearcy posted this 23 February 2016

Finally here is the comparison of the primer types.  When I looked at the four targets, I was convinced that it would be a walkover for the rifle primers.  Not so much!  The mean radius of the pistol primer aggregate was smaller than that of the rifle primers.  Also when I score the two 20 shot groups on the CBA target the two primers tied at 184 @.  Here are the pictures.

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Scearcy posted this 23 February 2016

I am sorry, that one was the pistol primers. The graphic below are the rifle primers.

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Scearcy posted this 23 February 2016

I guess I need some test here.

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frnkeore posted this 23 February 2016

You didn't say what either of the primers are (brand and #) and what was the mean radius of the two primers. Also, what was the load? 18.5 gr 4759 or something else?

If you where shooting a 10 shot group aggregate, the pistol primers would be the clear winner, even discounting the two wide shots in both #3 & 4 targets.

I can't wait for the Laupa brass test, maybe 10 foulers to start, this time :)

Frank

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Scearcy posted this 23 February 2016

Frank You are correct and I do apologize.  It was indeed YOUR load - 18.5 gr of 4759  The primers were both WW probably 3-4 years old.  If I had scored the four - ten shot groups separately both pistol and rifle would have scored well above 184.  I may do that later on as I am curious if either might hit the magic 190.  I'll tell you what, the last 2 1/2 groups were fun. Some one else asked about twist.  this is a 12 ” twist with very narrow lands (4 I believe) with deep grooves.  I do not have a chamber cast for this rifle, and probably never will, but it seems to be a very long throat compared to our domestic manufacturers.  The bullets I shot today were specifically designed for the 308.  I only had the gas check and about another 1/8” in the neck.  I will seat them even longer with Lapua brass. Jim

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Scearcy posted this 23 February 2016

I still didn't give you the mean radius number: .639 for pistol and .664 for rifle.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 24 February 2016

jhs:: a thought about * fouling shots * speaking of 22 rimfires here, which may not be the same as centerfire ....???

even if i didn't start from a clean barrel ... but it had set 30 minutes .... all my barrels required fouling shots.

also note whether 40 degrees f. or 95 f. ..... not always ” cold ” energy-wise .

these were 20 inches long 1 inch diameter krieger.. lilja..shilen ..very stiff, small hole, stubby ....we cryo-treated ours .. ( yes cryo barrels were luckier .. small sample ) ...

they always required multiple fouling shots ... essentially we shot foulers pretty fast until the impact stopped changing ... sometimes 20 shots ....

< note that impact centers from hour to hour could be different ... conditions ... we just shot foulers until the dang group stopped moving . >

sometimes the first fouler impact would be on the crosshairs ( from last heat ) and then walk off and walk right back on and stay there if we shot fast enough . sometimes the impact would start way off and walk toward the crosshairs from last match .

the goal was to have the ” zero ” stop moving .

some barrels were better, but all did this to some degree. all brands of match ammo.

and if you ” warmed up ” with cheap ammo, ... the scores on the first targets were worse.


my mj bench buddies don't go through this ... so it might not be the barrels ... is it the lube ?? probably ...

really enjoying your adventures ...

ken

oh the reason we can see the zero moving with match rimfires was that once stabilized and if you shot real fast... the impact would stay about 1/8 inch from the cross hair . 22 rimfire ... where every single thing is wrong .... wonder what we are doing right that our groups are bigger ... real bigger ... ??? ..

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Scearcy posted this 24 February 2016

KenI am going to be bummed out if I need to move away from tumble lubing.  Of course I need to keep in mind that when we get back to 70 degrees outside, everything may be fine.  Also at this point I am not sure that the lube is a contributing problem.  I am going to need to try another lube for sure but probably not until next week. This process has probably appeared a bit random to date and it was!  However, there are a number of take aways so far, for me. No more old federal primers.  I will use WW through the first match and then substitute CCI if I feel I need to.  This pertains to rifle primers only.  I am going to do some more shooting with WW pistol primers, perhaps as soon as today. At some point in the future (May or June) I am going to try a couple of slower powders. The ones which interest me right now are 4895, H414 and H4831.  That said  between now and the first match I expect to focus on 15.5 gr of 2400 ;  18.5 gr of 4759: and 20 gr of 5744.  I really suspect that all three of these loads will shoot well.  Of course 4759 is no longer available but I have enough for 2500 rounds on hand.  If I keep shooting at the current pace, that will only be one summer. Starting today I will not be mixing my brass, at least within any single test.  I also will be applying a light crimp to every round until I get the opportunity to anneal all of my 308 cases.  I will use Lapua brass for the matches. I am going to try 2 more bullets.  The first, the Lyman 311672, already have been lubed with tumble lube.  The second bullet is being supplied to me by an interested observer.  There will be more details when I get to that bullet.  For now, thanks Larry!  The final note here is in regard to the weakest link in my kit - ME.  Shooting this many rounds in cold weather has been challenging.  A couple of days ago the toe of the stock got caught in the hood of my jacket.  That shot was well out but it is in the groups I have shared.  Shooting with gloves is nuts but until we hit 40 degrees, that is the way it is.  Finally shoulder pressure with a vest, hooded sweat shirt and winter coat has been hard to control.  You know what though.  When May rolls around I am going to be way ahead of where I am normally. So thanks for going along on the trip.  I hope everyone is finding this interesting.  I know I am. Jim

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OU812 posted this 24 February 2016

Ed Harris wrote that alox works better if you first apply it to the barrel before firing.

I have preheated thinned alox in microwave then dipped base of bullet into trimmed down paper dixie cup. Letting bullets dry standing up on bases and setting on wax paper.

Crimping the gas check on square and concentric is tricky. Annealing helps. Crooked sized bullet bands (bullet runout) is caused mostly by hard gas check going thru sizing die. Sizing the bullet inline and concentric is very important.

Try a plain base bullet to avoid problems associated with gas checks.

...

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Scearcy posted this 25 February 2016

It is time for another update.  I have always liked the Lyman 311672 BUT it has never shot well for me.  Today was no different.  I thought it might not shoot well so I resolved to accomplish 2 purposes with today's testing.  I shot 40 rounds, 20 with pistol primers and 20 with rifle primers.  The powder choice for today was 15.5 gr of 2400.  since 2400 is basically a pistol powder, I thought pistol primers might work well and at a minimum should be safe.  They were.  I don't have much to say about today other than I won't be including the 311672 in any additional testing. I didn't bother to photograph the groups but I did do graphics of the two aggregates. They are not as good as yesterdays with the 31-200NR but the difference between the rifle primers and pistol primers was far greater.  The mean radius for the rifle agg is .879” and the mean radius for the pistol primers is .798".  You will need to draw your own conclusions about pistol primers but I am intrigued.

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Scearcy posted this 25 February 2016

And the pistol primers-----------

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John Alexander posted this 25 February 2016

Very interesting Ken.  I just shot a donut for Joe (will post later) with my old chopped off M.37 and the first shot would land reliably2 inches out at 11(at 50 yards) from the zero every time I started. Two or three shots would bring it close enough for  what I was doing but If I had a short break the damned thing would head back towards 11.  The rifle hadn't been shot in a couple of years and I'm sure I hadn't cleaned the bore after the last shooting.  Very frustrating. I finally cleaned the bore and most but not all went away.  I still had to shoot foulers  but it didn't seem so quick to “get cold." I suspect that some of the mysteries of CB shooting involve bore condition more than we think. John

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OU812 posted this 25 February 2016

I here bore riding bullets like at least six groove rifling with wide lands. My Rem 700 with Shilen short chambered barrel shot bore riders really well. Your Accurate bullet with ring on bore riding section should help in your four groove barrel.

Wolf Large Rifle primers. Linotype bullet bases dipped in alox. Bipod used for testing

...

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OU812 posted this 25 February 2016

You may be able to see rifling (wide lands, 1-10 twist) in this picture. Bullets were sized between .0001- .0005 smaller than .310 diameter freebore.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 25 February 2016

shilen barrels are hand lapped ...

edit::  oh sorry, didn't mean to post that thought ...

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Scearcy posted this 26 February 2016

I am jealous of the 314299 group.  Those are very hard to come by with a factory barrel. I started the finals today which means I made the final changes I though would help.  Remember we changed primers two days ago and the groups got better but they were still erratic.  Today I changed the lube to X-lox 2500 plus.  As a part of that change, I scrubbed the barrel thoroughly.  I also removed the action from the stock and then reassembled and tightened everything carefully.  Finally I switched over to Lapua brass.  This switch did wonders for the neck tension.The two groups are shown below.  Both groups used 18.5 gr of 4759 and WW pistol primers. The information is written on each target.  The top group is the best cast group so far with this rifle.  The mean radius of .389 is close to what I have done with jacketed bullets in this rifle.  This group would have scored 97 on the CBA target. The second group is all the same except the bullet is the NOE 312160 with a slight taper.  There are 5 shots in that tiny hole in the middle!  This target would have scored 94 on the CBA target. I will test both of these bullets with two other powders and then move on to the last two bullets with all three powders.  We are headed the right way.

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Scearcy posted this 26 February 2016

OU812 What do you mean short chambered? Is that one where you finished the chamber yourself or is it a 308 X 1 1/2?  I see you are using 22 gr of 4759.  I have never tried more than 20 in the 308.  How heavy is your rifle.  That load has to recoil a bit for a match load. Jim

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OU812 posted this 26 February 2016

Ken Campbell Iowa wrote: shilen barrels are hand lapped ...

edit::  oh sorry, didn't mean to post that thought ...

That is incorrect. This short chambered was not..., but I do have another that is  hand lapped.  It is easy to tell using my Hawkeye bore scope.

...

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OU812 posted this 26 February 2016

JHS, I had to finish reaming to set headspace using a PTG 308 Winchester reamer. The Remington VS weighs over 10 lbs. Loads were chronigraphed...JFYI.

Grouping shifted badly with the factory barrel. Shilen barrel works better, but rifle is not legal to compete with in factory class because of new barrel.

...

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 26 February 2016

ou812:: thanks for correction ...we always bought match select ... maybe that is the source of my misconception ... what a great forum here !!

i will check with shilen on this to get my memory upodated .

* short chambered * means the barrel maker ... or seller ...did a partial...short...starter chambering so there wouldn't be so much follow up work . not quite a roughing reamer cut, but does save time and money ... and reamer wear.

some gunsmiths prefer to do the complete job, especially mj benchrest smiths .

ken

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Scearcy posted this 26 February 2016

Ok while you guys are talking about hand lapped let me ask a question.  Do you think regular use of JB's smoothes a bore over time?  How about simply shooting cast bullets.  I have 400 cast bullets through this rifle now.  Am I lapping the bore, unless there are serious tight spots of course? Jim

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OU812 posted this 26 February 2016

I read alloys that are higher in antimony content (linotype, monotype) are more abrasive and should lap barrel smoother over time.

Have you ever measured velocity using 20 grains or less of 4759. Do you need gas check at these lower velocities?

...

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Scearcy posted this 26 February 2016

Its been some time since I have chronoed this load as I have used it so long.  I always estimate 18.5 gr at 1600-1650 but its been 10 years since I bothered with a chrono. The Lyman manual suggests about 1650 with a 200 gr bullet. I would think I am 200-300 fps over  the threshold for plain base.  What would be the advantage of going plain base is a fixed cartridge rifle?  I don't care about the cost of gas checks.  There are ways to deal with that. Jim

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OU812 posted this 26 February 2016

I think any amount of shooting with any alloy will help smooth barrel over time. Especially if barrel is cleaned well and exposing bore between shoots.

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John Alexander posted this 26 February 2016

JHS wrote: Ok while you guys are talking about hand lapped let me ask a question.  Do you think regular use of JB's smoothes a bore over time?  How about simply shooting cast bullets.  I have 400 cast bullets through this rifle now.  Am I lapping the bore, unless there are serious tight spots of course? Jim I have one data point.  In about 2000 I bought a Savage M-12 varmint rifle.  BVSS I believe. It had the roughest bore I have ever bore scoped but would average .75” five shot groups at 100 yds. It also shot CBs well but not as well as the JBs. After over 9K rounds (maybe 95% CBs) the bore was much smoother.  It would still shoot JBs and CBs just as well if seated out longer but not any better with the smoother bore.  Very little cleaning happened. So it must have been the shooting that smoothed it.

Since then I have had three other more or less identical Savages and each had a smoother bore than the one before.  The last is much smoother. Amazingly, all four shot almost identical JB averages when tested new.

John

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gpidaho posted this 26 February 2016

Lots of us shoot alloys that aren't virgin, WW, range scrap and recovered shot. I don't believe it possible to get all the grit out of these no matter how much you flux. There has to be some lapping going on with these bullets we cast. Gp

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Brodie posted this 26 February 2016

Ok, I'll stick my oar in here and splash some muddy water into the boat.document.write('/images/emoticons/coffee.gif');

B.E.Brickey

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Scearcy posted this 26 February 2016

Good afternoon!  I was a beautiful but slightly windy day at the range.  36 degrees with bright sun.  There were 10 mph gusts moving from 8 0'clock to 1 o'clock.  this may have impacted a couple of shots but I don't think it changed any outcomes. Today I continued where I left off yesterday.  The two bullets I used are the 311299 and the Noe 312160.  The two powders I used today were 15.5 gr of 2400 with rifle primers and 20 gr of 5744 with rifle primers. Here are the 5744 targets.  Hopefully the printing is legible

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Scearcy posted this 26 February 2016

I think this pair of targets eliminates 5744 from and further testing.  There isn't a great deal else to say about these two targets. Here is the A2400 targets

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Scearcy posted this 26 February 2016

Obviously these are much better targets.  If you look back at yesterdays targets you will note that 4759 and the 311299 bullet were a very good combo.  Today it is A2400 and 311299.  Yesterdays 10 shot group was 1.08” and would have scored 97.  Today's group is 1.13” and would have scored 96 on the CBA target.  Together that is a 193 and a 1.105” 2 group 10 shot agg. I will still be testing two more bullets.  I will, however, substitute 4895 for the 5744.  Also the NOE 312160 will get no further consideration If I had to shoot a match tomorrow with the 311299 bullets and either IMR 4759 or A2400 I would be very comfortable.  There will be a break in the testing as I have to cast some Accurate 31-200NR bullets tomorrow.  Larry has kindly shipped me a bunch of his NOE 30 XCB bullets as well. They should be here about the same time as the fresh cast bullets are ready to go.  THANK YOU LARRY. Its nice to be able to try a bullet before I buy the mold. I have not bedded this rifle.  I may have to though as it now looks like it is going to be competitive in Production class. Cheers!  I am going to have an adult beverage before dinner. Jim

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 27 February 2016

i would bed a competition rifle before i started tweaking for final loads ... it will be less likely to start needing a change in loads from match to match .

plus of course the psychological perk of knowing you have a solid tool at a match ..... zen is very important ...

shooting jb compound is not fast enough ( g ) ... 800 grit clover is about the finest that might improve your barrel in 50 shots .... jb will take 300 shots ... or 3000 ....

if you were tinkering and could see donating your barrel to science.... it would be interesting to shoot jb every shot ... just to see if it could make barrel condition more constant .... i once shot several thousand rimfire to try just that .... i could see no difference in accuracy or barrel conditioning ... but that was rimfire ... that barrel shot 3/8 inch at 50 yards before and after ... a 40x factory barrel . it might improve things in a factory barrel, but i feel it would take a lot of shooting ... oh, mine did not advance the throat ... was very shiny though ...

thanks for your reports

ken

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Scearcy posted this 27 February 2016

Good morning Ken Right now I don't think I want to donate this barrel to science.   :D  I will likely continue to use JB after matches or long practice sessions.  I normally don't clean during matches but a lot of folks would believe me wrong with that habit.  I have seen a couple of indications that this rifle likes a clean barrel. Jim

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Scearcy posted this 28 February 2016

There was more evidence yesterday that I need to do something about the bedding on this rifle.  The last group I fired last time out looked larger and looser than I thought it should be.  Since I had recently tightened the action screws, I didn't think to check them before I headed out yesterday.  The first group yesterday was so poor I aborted it and checked the action screws.  the front was loose again.  I was able to tighten it about one full turn. I then shot the groups below.  Both show marked horizontal stringing.  That might be bedding.  It might also be wind or it simply could be me having a bad day.  I do not believe that the load can cause horizontal stringing.  Hence I like the 31-200 NR with A2400 load.  I did go back to using pistol primers with 2400. I intend to do one more fairly limited test.  I am going to reshoot the 31-200 NR with 2400 and I am also going to try 30 XCB bullets with 2400.  I want to try these bullets at a higher velocity so I can only spare enough for 1 group here.

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frnkeore posted this 28 February 2016

I wouldn't give up on the 4759 until you try Rem 2 1/2 primers. I've never used Win Pistol primers but, have used the Rem and F150's, a lot.

Frank

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Scearcy posted this 28 February 2016

Don't worry Frank.  I have 8# of 4759.  I will not be giving up on it.  When I finish with this thread, I will take a little time off and get the rifle bedded properly.  Then the detailed load refinement will start.  It has been a while and I would like to go back to the Nationals this year and  I really would hate to embarrass myself down there. :) Thanks again for the pistol primer tip.  Others have recommended using something other than WW also.  This thread has retaught me the value of listening rather than defending. Jim

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 28 February 2016

glad you decided to bed the rifle.... one less thing to guess at . plenty left to wonder about tho ...

ken

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Scearcy posted this 28 February 2016

THE TESTING IS DONE!  Weather conditions were not good today.  We had a 15-20 mph wind the varied between 11 0'clock and 3 o'clock.  The groups will show that the right to left gusts were tough.  I wanted to try the 30 XCB bullet before I considered these tests finished.  LMG sent me a supply but I quickly decided I had other things I wanted to try with those bullets also.  As a result this test was allotted 10 bullets on a very windy day.  I also shot a group with the 310-200 NR just a s a reference point.  The 200 NR has been pretty consistent throughout.  If 3 of the wind blown bullets could be redone both groups would be under 1.5".  As is the 30 XCB went into a respectable 1.68"

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Scearcy posted this 28 February 2016

This thread was not intended to be a tutorial so I really have few if any earth shaking contributions about shooting cast bullets.  I would offer a couple of thought about the CZ 550 though.  This model is no longer available.  It's trigger is excellent, It's stock is attractive but very much ill suited for bench rest work.  The pistol grip is very deep for anyone who does not have large hands.  The fore end would be appropriate on a hunting rifle but is much too narrow to ride the bags well.  I believe the barrel has more capability than I will be able to realize with this stock and my meager skills.  If I retire this rifle from competition I will cut the barrel to 20 inches and fit a 3” slab of walnut to the bottom of the fore end. It would need to be parallel to the bore of course. I suspect the groups would shrink significantly.

Anyhow what I am going to do is bed the action, install a 6-24 scope, and do my best to shoot the barrel off it.  Maybe I'll have to take up offhand.  It would be nice for that. Anyone else have any load development to share - not cherry picked of course.  Jim

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Scearcy posted this 29 February 2016

Good morning!  I just reread this thread from the beginning.  We certainly don't touch on more than 10% of the information available about shooting cast in a 308.  I know that many of you who have followed this thread likely know more about the topic than I do. What has worked for you guys? By the way, always write it down! Otherwise we tend to only remember what we want too.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 29 February 2016

first, if you are going to shoot a factory rifle ....::

buy a cz

or sako/tikka

barrels.......( cz/tikka/sako ) bedding.......( pillared devcon is good ) bullets ......( after the above ... here is the fun part )

bring a gun to a gun fight.


on barrels:: if you hand lap/gauge your rem-ruger-win.-sav. barrel you might get lucky ... that can be part of the fun ... rescuing a crippled puppy ... the people that go to matches and shoot against themselves are my heros ...those few ... they are the ones that have the bbq and drinks before, during and after the match . and grinning ... the few .

... everybody should try a hart/krieger etc once ... of course you might need a moving backer if you shoot scores ...

just my thoughts.... worth every penny

ken

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4060may posted this 29 February 2016

before you bed...a very interesting article on bedding compound..http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2016/02/what-are-the-best-bedding-materials-speedy-speaks/

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Scearcy posted this 29 February 2016

Good Article

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Scearcy posted this 29 February 2016

I took the CZ to my gunsmith today.  under a shop light it was clear that the recoil lug was not even touching the stock.  No wonder strange things were going on with some of the groups.  You probably noted the the more mild the load, the better it shot.  Now we know why. Jim

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OU812 posted this 29 February 2016

Is your barrel free floated from factory.

Is your barrel's bore near strait...just curious?

Try shooting several five shot groups to see if groups shift.

...

...

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Scearcy posted this 01 March 2016

Free floated - yesI have shot almost 500 rounds since Christmas - its time to quit testing and fix it. Barrel is straight????????

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Scearcy posted this 01 March 2016

I guess I failed to say that I left the rifle at the gunsmith to be properly bedded.  I really have no idea how I would even know if the barrel were straight.  I have heard a couple of guys say they could see it and I have heard a couple of pretty good gun smiths laugh long and loud.  I really have never worried or for that matter, even thought about it.  Now I have owned two or three rifles in which the chamber was so far out of line with the bore that you virtually could see it.  

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muley posted this 02 March 2016

keep up the good work JHS, try a narrower bag on the front rest. I use a one and one half inch on the front of my 03a3.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 02 March 2016

for testing, i have made a rectangular slider plate ... either delrin or aluminum ...2 inches wide, 4 or 5 inches long ... 1/4 inch thick ...

attache temporarily to the bottom of the forearm ...

by bedding two anchors...pillars...in the stock ... epoxied in their blind holes ...tapped 8-32 ..bed on inch marks to match slider holes.

then drill snug for the 8-32.. holes in the slider...and use countersunk ( 100 degree ) capscrews to attach when you are testing .

ken

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OU812 posted this 02 March 2016

I use a Bi-Pod for load testing. The Bi-pod will add a little more weight to rifle and can be more accurate.

Have you tried sizing the bore ride section of bullet to make it more concentric. You want a snug slip fit in muzzle end of barrel. NOE sells bore riding sizing kit. Sizing wax helps.

Linotype will cast a little more consistant in weight, especially if you cast using just one cavity. Linotype will also cast a tad larger than WW (+.001).

...

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Scearcy posted this 02 March 2016

Here is a device I use frequently.  I did use this when shooting many of the test groups.  The is a Bench Rest Adapter sold by Sinclair.  It attaches to your front swivel stud HOLE.  It does not use the stud.  The heavier the rifle and the stiffer the stock, the better this device works.  I the case of this rifle the fore end is relatively slender and flexible  where the front swivel attaches.  When I shot the VV135 and H4895 loads, the fore end vibrated enough to touch the barrel.  You could hear the hear the barrel vibrating as the fore end touched it.  The solution for this rifle would be to drill and second hole a few inches back from the current swivel.  I used it on a Savage model 12 with the laminated stock.  It works great there.

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Scearcy posted this 02 March 2016

Second view

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Tom Acheson posted this 02 March 2016

Jim,

I think I know the answer but did you have a chronograph is use during any of your testing? Ignoring the pistol primers, did any one rifle primer stand out as being so called “better"?

And...that isn't the horse that we used to see on the road on the way to the Pioneer Club in MO at the National Tournament is it?

Thanks!

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Scearcy posted this 02 March 2016

Hi Tom, The horse is just an impromptu snap on a road trip somewhere. No I didn't use a chrono - yet.  When I return from vacation and the temps are above 40 I will chrono the final candidates.  I still hope to reintroduce H4895 for one more try.  I don't know if I will post any of that but you'll be scoring my groups so you will know.  :) I am also holding a secret bullet in the wings.  I have re-engineered my match bullet from 2011 so that I can reproduce it in less than 7 steps.  I hope to try it this afternoon in a different rifle. I had to quit using a batch of really old Federals as some were failing to fire.  Everything else was shot with WW primers.  Traditionally I have shot everything with CCI.  Things will be different if I end up using pistol primers this year.  I have been using WW but Frank insists that Remington will be better.  I have no reason to doubt him. Jim

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 02 March 2016

secret bullet, eh?

hey look what i just found in my stash !! 3 boxes of brand new rem. 308 BR ...the ones with the small primer !!

hey....ppc uses small primer ... do you suppose ??

ken, thinking small ...

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Tom Acheson posted this 02 March 2016

Ken,

At one time that small primer concept was a really big deal to the BR crowd....

How about a factory bolt action chambered in 7.62x39 and then use the R-P factory 7.62x39 cases with small primer (if still available)? The 220 Russian...7.62x39...is the grandfather of the PPC case world, right?

Tom

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billglaze posted this 02 March 2016

Ken, I just happened to look in my basement a while back, and found a whole six boxes of brand-new Rem. B. R. Cases--apparently called such because of the small primer. I then looked in my old High-Power score book and found an entry beside the 600 yard score that said “outstanding.” So, allowing myself to get all excited and titillated, (don't you just love that word?) I started working with those cases, and quickly discovered that my every-day dies wouldn't size them enough to hold a bullet. And, I couldn't find any info from my log book to tell me what I had done to make the cases work, back then. If anything special, I don't have any record of it. As you would say: “heh."

Recently, I saw where Lapua is making .308 small primer cases. My guess? They know something I don't know! Surprise! Duh.

Bill (I sure wish it would warm up) Glaze

In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. My fate is not entirely in Gods hands, if I have a weapon in mine.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 02 March 2016

biilg:: i think i took the other 40 and sized them down to 243 win.. for mj bullets ... but couldn't tell the difference . i think i will search my stash ... maybe someone shooting 308 could give them a try .....

hmmm ... i have never shot cast in my 308 sako ..

ken

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Scearcy posted this 02 March 2016

You have a Sako 308 and you don't shoot cast in it?  That is child abuse, heh.:)

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Larry Gibson posted this 10 March 2016

JHS Tweaked the H4831SC load and ended up with this today.  Thanks for the payment, appreciated. LMG      

Concealment is not cover.........

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Scearcy posted this 10 March 2016

Good morning Larry,  I am still hoarding most of your bullets.  We are leaving on vacation pretty soon but when I get back, I will give that exact load a go.  I just picked up a nice used 13# F class rifle which should be perfect for trying your bullets and load.  The recoil should be minimal. Jim

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Larry Gibson posted this 10 March 2016

JHS

The recoil is very manageable with the M70 which weighs in at 12.5 lbs with the MBT BR Forend adapter on it. With that load I put my shoulder gently against the stock and the rifle recoils back maybe 3/4". Hardly noticeable. What twist does your new/used F class rifle have?

LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 10 March 2016

larry ... i would like to thank you for your adventures and reports ... a major purpose for the cba is to make advances in the understanding of how cast bullets work and why they sometimes seem to do strange things ....

this past year has seen several members undertake serious projects to enhance our understanding and we certainly include your efforts and documented reports as highly valuable to that end .

it seems that we cast shooters are always chasing that carrot just in front of our noses ... and when you and other active explorers give us a little taste of that carrot ... it inspires us to pick up the pace a little .

thank you ... and the others who are doing the ” show and tell ” .

ken in awe

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gpidaho posted this 10 March 2016

^^^^^^^^^+1 Thanks Larry. Gp

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Scearcy posted this 10 March 2016

Larry  ------ It is a 12 twist.  If I ever find a cast off 30 BR barrel with a 14” twist, I would like to give that a try. Jim

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 10 March 2016

jim:: ace gunsmith stan ware, westbrooke mn, will know about every match grade 30 cal. slow twist barrel in the midwest . they go as slow as 17 ... in hunter class .

if i didn't do my own stuff that is where i would go .

ph 5072745649 that is my last ph for him .

ken

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Scearcy posted this 11 March 2016

The CZ came home from the gunsmith today.  It was in serious need of bedding as it turned out.  I won't be shooting for the next few weeks but when I get at it again,  I'll see if all the experimenting will pay off with 1 or 2 good loads.  

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beltfed posted this 26 April 2016

I have been thinking about bringing my Palma rifle out of the back of the safe.to play cast bullets with it.It has a 30" Krieger 13 twist “heavy Palma contour" barrel.beltfed/arnie

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Larry Gibson posted this 26 April 2016

beltfed wrote: I have been thinking about bringing my Palma rifle out of the back of the safe.to play cast bullets with it.It has a 30" Krieger 13 twist “heavy Palma contour" barrel.beltfed/arnie
That would be an excellent rifle to use for cast bullets.  I used my M70 with 12” twist recently but am pulling out my own Palma rifle with a 27.6” Schultz & Larson 14” twist barrel and my 30x60 XCB with 31” Broughton barrel with a 16” twist.  Both shoot a bit better with cast because the slower twist keeps the RPM down which then has less affect on accuracy.  That is most important at 200 yards.  The high velocity that is usable also lessons wind drift at 200 yards.   LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

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Scearcy posted this 27 May 2016

I have been home from vacation about a month. During that time I put another 500 plus rounds through a 300 Blackout. Now that the 300 BLK series for TFS is complete I can get back to the 308. The 300 BLK makes the 308 seem like an obedient child. I cast 700 bullets this afternoon. I am going to continue on with 4759 and A2400 as my powders. We have 4 matches coming up in the next 5 weeks. It should be a very good opportunity to test and refine a couple of loads.

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Scearcy posted this 28 May 2016

I got out to the range this afternoon. It was raining so there was no mirage other than barrel mirage. I have had the rifle bedded and added a level on the scope since the prior tests. I shot two 10 shot groups in which everything was the same except for the bullet size. I think all of the detail will show in the photos.

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Scearcy posted this 28 May 2016

Here is the second group - .309

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Scearcy posted this 29 May 2016

In addition to poorer accuracy with the .309 bullets, I also got several cases with a fair amount of soot back to the shoulder.  I am not sure why that happened.  It doesn't seem to be worth trying any more .309 bullets.  Tomorrow I plan to try .3105 bullets with the same load except for using pistol primers.  The second test load tomorrow will utilize 15.5 gr of A2400 and pistol primers.  My goal is to get an agg of less than 1.25” for those two 10 shot groups.

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OU812 posted this 29 May 2016

JHS wrote: In addition to poorer accuracy with the .309 bullets, I also got several cases with a fair amount of soot back to the shoulder.  I am not sure why that happened.  It doesn't seem to be worth trying any more .309 bullets. Cases were not forming to chamber (lower pressure) when fired, allowing gasses or soot to escape past case. Velocity spread was probably wider also.

Try different alloys hardness from 1-20 to linotype. Sometimes softer works best. I never cared for Alox lube.

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Scearcy posted this 29 May 2016

They were the exact same bullets and loads.  The only difference was that the bullets were sized .0015 smaller.  I may not have made it clear that I was only referring to the loads with the .309 bullets. I also have quit using Alox or any derivative thereof for “match” loads.

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OU812 posted this 29 May 2016

I under stood you were using smaller diameter .309 bullets. Smaller diameter equals less chamber pressure.

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Scearcy posted this 29 May 2016

Each year the detailed results of the Nationals are published in The Fouling Shot. These results are an excellent source of information.  I looked at the last five years (2011-2015) results for the Production class. The numbers I focused on were the 10 shot, 100 yard aggs for the top three finishers each year. These 15 aggs represent 30 - 10 shot groups shot by the top competitors.  The average of these 30 - 10 shot groups is 1.376".  The average of the 10 groups shot by the five years' winners is 1.211". These two numbers are useful benchmarks when evaluating the results of our load testing.  Sub 1” 10 shot groups are not the norm in this class.  Now if you are shooting an 12 pound 308 with a blue printed action and a Lilja barrel, Your definition of a good group will be different. Just to avoid any confusion, I am lecturing myself here. :)

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Scearcy posted this 30 May 2016

Another day and two more 10 shot groups.  Both of these groups employed pistol primers.  The first group used the same load as yesterday other than the pistol primers.  The wind was tough today and I had not brought wind flags.  You'll note that I shot 12 rounds into this target.  the bullet strikes largely started on the left side and migrated to the right.  There actually are two groups of 4 and 8 rounds respectively.  this group should have been at least 1/2” smaller if I had done my part.  The cases smoked with pistol primers.  They did not smoke with rifle primers yesterday.

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Scearcy posted this 30 May 2016

I seem to be having picture problems.

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Scearcy posted this 30 May 2016

OK my bad.  Here is the second which uses 15.5 gr of A2400.  I was better in the wind with this load.

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Scearcy posted this 30 May 2016

I used WW pistol primers as I do not have any Remington primers on hand. It has been reported that Remington's work better.  I have a week left until the next match.  I am going to try one more bullet.  It will be either 311299 or RCBS 180 SP.

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OU812 posted this 30 May 2016

What alloy or hardness are bullets? Try soft vs. hard.

Seat gas check square.

Size .0001 -.0005 smaller than free bore.

Concentricity is very important. Sizing bullets off center is major cause for non concentric rounds.

Less neck tension.

...

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Premod70 posted this 30 May 2016

Just an observation but some of the bullets seem to have a little yaw to them.

Forrest Gump is my smarter brother.

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Scearcy posted this 30 May 2016

Todays test rounds: 311299

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Scearcy posted this 30 May 2016

a little yaw - yes I think you are correct - this is primarily with the A2400 load.  I have not noticed it before when I was using rifle primers.  We will have to pay attention today with rifle primers.  This is a different bullet though.

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Scearcy posted this 30 May 2016

Here is the other picture of todays test bullets.  I raided the throw away box to find enough bullets with torn out sprues in order to shoot a couple of test groups.  I am not going to boor you with pictures of the groups, but the agg for 3 ten shot groups was more than 2". Now before you chastise me about tearing out so many sprues, the day I cast these it was like 8 degrees.  It took some time to get everything up to temp and to get my cadence right.  It is a five cavity mold and I finally just settled for using three cavities in order to keep the temp up. Here is the picture

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Premod70 posted this 31 May 2016

I don't know of a method to cast at a temperature of 8* and glad I don't have to, 55-70* works best for me. What is the nose diameter of the 311299? Also curious as to any thoughts about throating the barrel, I think it is legal for a production class rifle.

Forrest Gump is my smarter brother.

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Scearcy posted this 31 May 2016

The nose is 301 (you got to like NOE molds).  I know its legal to throat a production gun but I don't like to do it. If I can't unlock the key to 1 1/4” 10 shot aggs and sub 1” 5 shot aggs, I might have to try it.  If I had complete freedom, I would like to cut the barrel to 20” also but that would disqualify the rifle as “Production".

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beltfed posted this 31 May 2016

try nose sizing as needed, first rather than the throating.beltfed/arnie

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Scearcy posted this 31 May 2016

WORKING ON THE DETAILS:  The last time I annealed this cases was......well it has been a while.  I am annealing 450 cases this afternoon.  The necks were so hard that neck tension had to be a problem.

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Pentz posted this 01 June 2016

Excellent reportage and shooting. A minor point - I too used a NOE 4-cavity mold, bottom poured, and had quite a struggle with consistency and rejects. Against all my instincts (which were faulty) and following all good advice, I went to a custom mold made to my throat and barrel specs, iron, single cavity, and took up dip-pouring. My consistency went up considerably, to the point I can dip within 1 gr. of a 210-gr. bullet.   I'd give up weight-sorting if I weren't so anal.  Anything not visually perfect (and I mean perfect) is tossed back to be melted. My average groups hover at 1 MOA with a 1917 mod. scope Enfield 30/06. The better shooters run below MOA at our matches. Multiple-cavity mold bullets are not better-shooting bullets as I have learned.

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Scearcy posted this 01 June 2016

Pentz - could I ask who made your mould?  How long did it take? Jim

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beltfed posted this 01 June 2016

Ladle/Dipping, only way to go.

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Pentz posted this 01 June 2016

I'll PM you.

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Scearcy posted this 01 June 2016

I agree that ladle/dipping will produce more consistent results.  The old timers used to mark the cavities.  Pentz caused me to lay awake and rethink some concepts of speed vs accuracy of casting. Thank you Pentz

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 01 June 2016

if you super-sort and only keep 1/3 of your bullets you might go 2 times slower and come out ahead .

but then when i get in the right groove i get great bullets casting as fast as the sprue doesn't take too long to freeze ... the sprue feeze is my speedometer ...

ken

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Pentz posted this 01 June 2016

I dip pour and watch for the “right shade” of sprue frosting before palming the sprue plate. it has a long ear and palms easily; forcing the plate down while tuning eliminates “teats” (hey I grew up on a ranch” ;-)

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Scearcy posted this 02 June 2016

Yesterday was very windy.  The wind was approx 10 mph gusting regularly to over 20 mph.  I should have stayed home but I wanted to go to the range.  It seemed like a good day to practice in the wind.  The picture below shows the 3 bullets I used.  what is not apparent from the photo is that I put all of the test bullets through the taper/bump die.  The impact on the Saeco 315 was minimal.  The 311299 was tapered significantly. Hopefully the outcome was a more uniform batch of bullets.  The 200G bullets were actually bumped up slightly as the mold drops them a bit undersize.  I took 1 wind flag with me.

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Scearcy posted this 02 June 2016

Here are the targets in the order I shot them.  The first target I used the wind flag exclusively.  By the end of the third target I was watching the wind flag, watching the leaves behind the target butt, and conscious of the wind on my cheek.  Each of these 3 “breezes” was coming from a different direction.  The groups aren't great but shooting in that wind was fun and also good practice.  My first mentor told me practicing w/o wind flags was a waste of time.  He was much better than I will ever be.

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Scearcy posted this 02 June 2016

Here are the second and third groups:

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Scearcy posted this 02 June 2016

Number 3:

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OU812 posted this 02 June 2016

Why are you taper bumping bullets? Did you recut throat to a certain taper? Have you ever did a chamber cast to measure throat and see what it looks like?

I believe a minimally sized RCBS 165 Sil bullet would work good with factory throat...if fitted to throat properly and seated long so that front band is jammed into rifling (looser neck tension)

"Soft seating of bullets is a technique used by many top competitors to overcome variables such as inconsistent seating depth and seating depth changes due to throat erosion. Soft seating of bolt action rifle ammunition is accomplished by leaving the bullet seated out far enough so it is pushed back into the case as the rifle bolt is closed. Thus, each bullet is started true to the rifling.”

...

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 02 June 2016

ha... wind shooting is a great game in itself..... wind not only blows bullets left and right but also up and down ....1 20 mph wind can blow your slugs an inch at 100 yards ... even two !! in 50 yard 22 rimfire bench rest, we used mostly 3 flags ....that would be 6 flags at 100 yards ....

one way to practice wind shooting is to just aim at the bullseye and see how different flags try to tell you something .... and remember :: they like to lie !! ( i always thought ) ...

i preferred a light but steady wind ...the trickiest is when the wind suddenly stops ... seems safe to fire, but maybe it is just switching just as you tickle the trigger...

btw your groups in the wind look pretty good to me ...

ken

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Pentz posted this 02 June 2016

If you have not already done a pound cast and bore slug I'd recommend doing it. Throat fit is king, bullet length and weight to rate of twist is queen. Those groups should be tickling 1 MOA.

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Scearcy posted this 02 June 2016

The taper die is the exact same taper as the 200 G bullets. It was useful to bump them up slightly. The 311299s were a bit fat . You can see where the taper die took them down about .001 just behind the ogive.  Now they are soft seated (which I have used for years - it doesnt cure everything.) and their fit is consistent enough so that OAL is predictable from bullet to bullet without a heavy crimp.

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Scearcy posted this 02 June 2016

POUND CAST SPECS: BORE: .301GROOVES: .309THROAT: .311LENGTH OF THROAT: .180 THE SPECS LOOK A LITTLE GENEROUS TO ME.  WHAT DO YOU GUYS THINK?

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Pentz posted this 03 June 2016

Well, it IS a factory chamber and throat! A bore-riding 311299 design with a nose at .301, and a front band at least .20 long dropping at .311 would be a nice fit. Turn your necks, fire form to your rifle, index the cases and mold, and size the necks to .3105 ID or so. Of course, specify the alloy you will use as that has a bearing on size when dropped.

Recently, I've been miking the noses of my score/group bullets and have picked up a few that were asymmetric. That might influence “fliers". It's all in the details.  I shot this 200-yd target at Wednesday's mod. military match; the wind “got” me on what would have otherwise been a record target.  I don't always shoot this well at 68 but miking noses have improved my scores.

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mtngun posted this 03 June 2016

JHS wrote: POUND CAST SPECS: BORE: .301GROOVES: .309THROAT: .311LENGTH OF THROAT: .180 THE SPECS LOOK A LITTLE GENEROUS TO ME.  WHAT DO YOU GUYS THINK? That's close to SAAMI specs, and perhaps snugger than some other brands.    

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Scearcy posted this 03 June 2016

Well the pound slug will help narrow the search.  for the time being I have one mold that is a pretty good fit. If I can find a  CBA match where the barrel's curvature is into the wind, this thing should shoot pretty well.  :^: Seriously I am still shooting January's bullets. Next week I am going to cast a new supply of the leading contender.  I may even separate the cavities and do  a little weighing.  It is a 4 cavity mold and with a little effort I may be able to identify two cavities that are superior to the other two.   I am beginning to remember how much work it can be to wring out that last half inch.  I reread my article for TFS from 2011.  It detailed the things I did to get my Hunter rifle ready for the nationals.  It could be this rifle will be just a fussy as that one was. 

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OU812 posted this 04 June 2016

JHS wrote: POUND CAST SPECS: BORE: .301GROOVES: .309THROAT: .311LENGTH OF THROAT: .180 THE SPECS LOOK A LITTLE GENEROUS TO ME.  WHAT DO YOU GUYS THINK?

It looks like you have the larger 308 NATO chamber...same as my Remington 700. The standard 308 Winchester has shorter freebore and .310 diameter.

The only thing to try now is softer 20-1 alloy...allow hardness makes a BIG difference...trust me.

20-1 (lead,tin) will not age harden over time

...

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Scearcy posted this 04 June 2016

Good thought!

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Scearcy posted this 10 June 2016

Attached are two groups which are before and after a significant change in bench technique.  For the record the bullet was  the RCBS 180 SP as cast with check.  15.5 gr 2400 and WLR primers.  Pistol primers have proven to be too fragile for this rifle.  I will report the bench technique change when and if it still looks good after another 100 rounds.  DRY FIRING WILL HELP DIAGNOSE ISSUES.

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Scearcy posted this 10 June 2016

Yes these groups are 9 rounds each.  I have started shooting a fouler before each group and ran short on ammo. :D

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Pentz posted this 10 June 2016

Marked improvement....keep progressing!

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 10 June 2016

hi jim... now for thge easy part ::

you gotta repeat ....over and over ... !!

hah

ken, pres. js fan club

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Scearcy posted this 11 June 2016

A friend of mine and I were doing “old guy” talk the other day ( his grandson's graduation party).  We were talking about how critical we were of our fathers when they wanted us to help do tasks which they had previously handled with ease.  Well here we are 40 years later - not as strong and not as steady as we once were.  Time will tell if a change in technique can help turn back the clock a bit.

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billglaze posted this 11 June 2016

JHS: Yep, you're absolutely right about aging.
I never ever thought I'd see the day when I couldn't take “Yes” for an answer.

Bill

In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. My fate is not entirely in Gods hands, if I have a weapon in mine.

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Scearcy posted this 12 June 2016

Here are the bullets for next weeks matches.  They are  the RCBS 180SP and the Lyman 311299.  Both are .311 with noses in the .301-.302 range.  The RCBS are “pit run” and the 311299s are about as good as I can make them.  Both are approx Lyman 2 for hardness.

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billglaze posted this 12 June 2016

JHS: About how tight are the bore-riding sections in the bore? Just a good guess on the fit will be a help:vis tight, loose, bare slip fit, just to get a “feel” for it. I got some hardware/dies for some .300 nose sections, but haven't yet had an opportunity to try any of my 299's yet.

Bill

In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. My fate is not entirely in Gods hands, if I have a weapon in mine.

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Scearcy posted this 12 June 2016

Bill: The 180 RCBS is .302+.  I can close the bolt w/o white knuckles but they engrave quite a bit.  The 311299s are closer to 301.  I can feel them as I close the bolt.  Neither bullet can be pushed into the end of the barrel. Jim

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Scearcy posted this 15 June 2016

Upcoming match tomorrow so I went to the range to get the zero close.  I have 9 rounds left so I shot them as a group.  I am close on the zero although there is a 15 mph wind from 8 o'clock today so some adjustment will be necessary.  The load is the NOE 311299 with 18.5 gr of 4759.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 15 June 2016

dang wind ! here is my approach i finally wound up with ::

make only half the adjustment your math tells you is right ...


this doesn't get me a bull every time.... but does seem to improve my score average .

ken

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Larry Gibson posted this 15 June 2016

That's an old service rifle solution to adjusting for wind. Reason being any adjustment is moving the center of the cone of fire, not the strike of the bullet.

LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

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Scearcy posted this 22 June 2016

My rifle needed a little attention and so did my bench technique.  These have kept me busy for a while.  I have been getting input about trying a softer alloy.  The alloy I have been using is 92-6-2 which can be pretty hard.   OU812 supplied me with some softer RCBS 165 Sil.  I also cast  311299s, RCBS 180 SP and NOE 312160 FN out of a softer alloy.  The problem is that my CZ runs a little oversize and the softer bullets are about .001 smaller than when cast with the hard alloy.

the RCBS 165s are about .002 too small.  The 311299s are about .001 too small.  The other two bullets are large enough to fit correctly.  Here are the four groups: RCBS 165 Sil - These bullets were apparently too small to shoot well.  I am going to test this bullet again later.

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Scearcy posted this 22 June 2016

Next are the NOE 312160 FN.  I don't consider this an accuracy bullet but it fits the rifle well.

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Scearcy posted this 22 June 2016

Now the 311299.  This bullet is not stable.  I shot another group 2 hours later when it was 15 degrees warmer. That group was about 9".  This is a pretty good group although some of the bullet holes exhibit slight tipping.

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Scearcy posted this 22 June 2016

Finally the RCBS 180 SP.  This bullet fits my rifle.  Right now it would be my choice.  That might change when I get the 311299s stabilized.

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Scearcy posted this 22 June 2016

Early in this process I stated my goal as a 10 shot group agg of 1.25” or less.  It looks like I have one load and soon will have another which can meet that goal.  I am going to continue to tweek and test but in my opinion it is unlikely that I can attain an agg of 1” or less.

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muley posted this 23 June 2016

JHS, what powder are u using and what wgt? What is the diameter of the so-called to small bullets? Ed Krasney shoote a .3095 in his 30Br and gets very good accuracy.U may have to up your powder charge to keep the bullets from tipping. Keep up the good work

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Scearcy posted this 23 June 2016

Sorry Muley! I was a little cryptic yesterday.  I was using 15.7 gr of A2400.  Yesterday my cases were getting “smoked” even after being annealed last week.  I am going to move up to 17 gr I believe.  I reread all of my notes last night.  I had some early success with 20 gr of 5744.  I later drifted away from this load in the midst of what turned out to be rifle issues.  Of course I still like 18.5 gr of 4759 but so far A2400 has been a little better. My rifle (a CZ) has a large bore. Jim Kobe (my patient gunsmith buddy) was able to easily slip a .3005 stud into the muzzle when we were recrowning the other day.  When I slugged the bore, it measured .301/.309.  The 165 sil bullet was about .2995/.309. The 311299 was .300/.310. The 180 SP is .3015/.311 and of course the NOE bullet is not a bore ride.  I have shot .309 bullets in this rifle earlier.  They did not do well.  The reason I tried again was that the alloy for these bullets was softer. I like the fact that my groups are starting to look like groups.  That sounds obvious but in my experience even a small group which doesn't look “right” usually means something is still wrong somewhere.  this is a maddening game by the way. I am surprised that the 311299 has proven to be so unstable in this rifle.  When it flies nose first, it produces the smallest groups.  However, right now I don't think I can keep it stable to 200 yards without a dramatic increase in velocity and  recoil. I have soaked up too much recoil over the years to enjoy shooting a 200 gr bullet at 2,000 fps any more. I have been thinking that a custom mold which drops a slightly fat 311299 with a flat nose might be just the ticket at about 1650 fps. I should mention that this rifle has a 1-12 twist. I am still saving most of my stash of 30 xcb bullets supplied by Larry.  These are short enough and light enough so that they might be the answer here.  I have been waiting to have everything but the bullet fixed before I use the rest  of these up. OK I apologize for not being cryptic this morning.:coffee

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OU812 posted this 23 June 2016

The 30BR probably has a much tighter throat compaired to the larger 308 NATO chamber. So bullet fit is more snug before ignition.

Smoked cases is a sign of lower pressure...cases not sealing and bullet not swelling to bore. Upping the powder charge or quicker burning powder will help bump bullet to fit large 308 NATO throat. Accuracy may improve?

I measured those RCBS bullets using a calibrated micrometer. Measurements with 20-1 alloy were .301-.3015 and .309-.3095. Casting with linotype alloy increases size .001 larger.

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beltfed posted this 28 June 2016

JHS,You may not need a “custom” 311299.Lyman lists a 314299. Or look for an older lyman 311299.I have one that casts up in the 312 area.beltfed/arnie

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Scearcy posted this 28 June 2016

Hi Arnie The problem with the 311299 may also be the length.  I am having big trouble keeping them stable. I know I can drive them faster but it will need to be a fair amount faster to keep them stable at 200.  HAVING SAID THAT, I AM NOT SURE THAT IS TRUE!  Muzzle velocity sets the initial RPMs. Velocity slows with distance but I am not sure that RPMs do.  Can someone clear this up for me?  Does a bullet lose stability a velocity decreases? Jim

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joeb33050 posted this 28 June 2016

 Velocity slows with distance but I am not sure that RPMs do.  Can someone clear this up for me?  Does a bullet lose stability a velocity decreases? JimI've had no luck seeing stability decrease as velocity decreases. I've conducted tests reducing powder charges and seeing POI elevation change and haven't seen stability decrease yet. Here are examples:

VERY LOW VELOCITY LOADS             The Savage Striker pistol in 308 Winchester with Simmons 2-6 scope shoots averages of 5 5-shot groups at 100 yards of less than 2”.             The load is: 314299 bullet ~200 grains sized .312”, Lyman Super Moly lube, IMR4227, Rem. 2 1/2 LP primers, 2.790” OAL.               Here are the results of the testing: “Elevation” is the location of the group center with respect to the target center. “Group” “ is the average size of all groups shot. All group size measurements with a plastic 1/10” graduated plastic scale, readable in .025” increments.               Quickload MV data thanks to John Bischoff               Drop”               Group”             fps            Pressure 26                                                        1744            33697 25                                                        1691            30883 24                                                        1637            28236 23                                                        1582            25749 22                                                        1525            23415 21              +1.375”           1.95                 1468            21226 20        0                      2.35                 1410            19177 19        0                      2.45                 1350            17263 18                                2.176               1290            15479 17                                2.019               1229            13281 16        -1.4”                1.96                 1167            12284 15        -1.625              1.8                   1104            10866 14        -1.5                  2.3                   1041            9557 13        -.75                  2.03                 978            8330 12        -1.375”            1.825               914            7221                11        -.75”                2.6                   850            6219 10        -1.5”                2.7                   787            5318 9          -3.5”                2.1                   724            4516 8          -7”                   2.35                 662            3804 7          -11.75”             2.7                   602            3182 6          -16”                 4.3                   544            2646   3/24/10, M10 Savage 308 Win, 314299. ~200 gr., .3095”, WLP, IMR4227, 2.925”, Lyman Super Moly first groove lubed Grains  Drop”               Group”             fps            Pressure 20        0 19 18 17 16 15 14 13 12 11 10        -6.5                  2.05                             9          -9                     2.45     8          -12.5                1.6       7          -16                   3.25     6          -21                   2.3           M54 Winchester, 30-30, CCI L.P., 311299, .312”, Lyman Super Moly, one groove lubed, 2.830”, IMR4227   Grains  Drop”               Group”             fps            Pressure 10        zero                  2.9       9          -4.5                  2.0       8          -8                     2.25     7          -13                   3.0       6          off the paper                 grains       vel   psi 5             596   2582 6             678   3215 7             763   3972 8             848   4861 9             934   5889 10         1019   7068 11         1102   8404 12         1185   9917 13         1266 11612 14         1345 13506 15         1422 15586 16         1497 17871     Conclusions:             Reasonable group sizes result with velocities unreasonably low.             The 10” twist barrel provides sufficient rpm to stabilize 1.2” long bullets at unreasonably low velocities. No key holing or greatly elongated holes were found down to 544 fps. Velocity has little effect on stability in this region.             The Creighton Audette Ladder Testing effect was noted as velocities increased from 544 to 724 fps. Above 724 fps to 1468 fps groups stayed +/- 1.5” elevation.               I can't make the groups wild at 100 yards with any load or figure out what's happening between 100 and 200 yards with 16/IMR4227.

joe b.  

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beltfed posted this 28 June 2016

Joe BDid you see any bullet tipping indications on your tgts, particularly the very low velones? Twist rates on your 3 guns?Shooting was at 100yds, I presume. but what happens at 200yds or beyond? I do know from experience, for example, in BPCR, that my 16 twist 40-65, with a 1.375” long Snover bullet clocking 1250+, will be ok at 800yds, borderline at 900, then “spray and prayat 1K, with bullets showing tipping when/if they go thru the tgt.Bullet length is major factor. I can then shoot my 1.325” long Elliptical Minigroove same gun, and yes somewhat higher velocity, and it is now stable at 1K.JHS, noting your 12 twist , I suggest you try the Lyman 311291.  Shorter, and also famous for being one of the most accurate bulletsbeltfed/arnie  

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Scearcy posted this 01 July 2016

I went to the range today.  My purpose was to test 17.5 gr of A2400 rather than the 15.5 gr I have been using.  The lighter load was resulting in heavily smoked cases.  I also have been having trouble stabilizing the 311299 bullets with the light load.  My hope was that a couple more gr of powder would be sufficient to stabilize the 311299.  First let me say that the 17.5 gr load WAS NOT sufficient to stabilze the 311299s.  I had a tight cluster of six and then 4 strikes from 1 to 2 inches away from the main group.  Those 4 holes all exhibited so tipping. I also shot 2 - 10 shot groups using the RCBS 180 SP.  The pictures below each contain 9 holes as this rifle continues to send the first shot from a cool barrel 2” out at 9 O'clock.  The aggregate for these 2 - 9 shot groups is 1.18".  This gives me 3 groups in the past 7 days with the RCBS 180 SP all of which measure between 1 and 1 1/4 inch.  I will be trying a couple of spitzers in the near future as I doubt that this load is going to shoot much better than this.

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Pentz posted this 01 July 2016

I usually put the first three into the dirt or my sighter before a record shot. Keep upping that charge until the necks are just lightly smoked.

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Scearcy posted this 02 July 2016

Here is what the cases look like with 17.5 gr of A2400.  I am running low on A2400 so I am going to try 21 gr of 5744 this afternoon.

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Pentz posted this 02 July 2016

Those aren't all that sooty. I do not care for 5744, heats the barrel up too much. But some folks do pretty well with it.

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Scearcy posted this 03 July 2016

I didn't mention that I have switched to a softer alloy approx 60% 92-6-2 and 40% Pb.  That change coincided with a 1/4” Improvement in the 10 shot groups.  I never thought when I started this project 965 shots ago that I would be making soft RCBS 180 SP bullets for the next match.

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Scearcy posted this 04 July 2016

Different bullet and different powder - the same result.  While it is only by .030, this is the smallest group I have shot with this rifle.  HAPPY BIRTHDAY AMERICA.  WE ARE LUCKY TO BE HERE.

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mtngun posted this 04 July 2016

Excellent shooting, JHS !    You've made good progress over the course of this thread.

Re: stability.   In theory, your bullets should be plenty stable.    

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frnkeore posted this 04 July 2016

I can't help but notice the vertical stringing. Did you throw from a measure or weigh the powder charges?

4759 is hard to measure with even a accuracy of +/- .1 gr.

It's time consuming but, weighing is best.

Frank

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Scearcy posted this 04 July 2016

I am increasing the charge 1/2 gr for an upcoming match.  That may help.  I am pretty sure the highest shot was my fault due to faulty shoulder pressure.  The group size is the same on the diagonal as  it is vertically.  I didn't have this vertical stringing in the groups in post 168.  I trust A2400 more in this rifle but until I find some more I have to save my current stash for the upcoming regional match.  I need to rebuild my deck the next two weeks so further testing will need to wait.  I am just grateful to be trying to get under an inch rather than under 2 inches where I started in February. :)

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OU812 posted this 05 July 2016

Good shooting. I bet recoil is a little less brutal also (lighter bullet).

I will soon be rebuilding the deck on a 12' x 12' floating boat dock. One 12' decking board (1” x 5” round edge) cost $20.00 at Home Depot. Their are cheaper places to buy lumber.

....

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