Going to take delivery in a coupla days on the above in the Short Rifle model (Miroku version). I looked all thru this section of the forum and couldn't find anything specific of this rifle & cal. So thought I'd start a thread on it and see what comes up. Have been doing quite a bit of looking around the Net but most of the info I could find dealt with other brands with very little specifically on the Win. I was really surprised at the variations in the twist rates on the various makes. That's the thing that confuses me the most. Not sure of the why on that. I've got the Lyman 429241 which I use in a Ruger .44 Spec. & a S&W M29 .44 Mag. It'll run .4305 cast out of Lino and weighs a little over 235 grs. Hopefully that will work in the Win. 92. So if anyone has any experience on this rifle and caliber I'd like to hear from you on your experiences. Pete
Winchester 1892 .44 Mag.
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- Last Post 25 December 2023
It is a modern lever rifle in 44 Mag, it will easily handle factory ammo and hand-loads at that level.
The bigger question from me is, what will you be shooting it at? You mention Linotype, I'm not a fan of Linotype bullets, they fragment on game. There is plenty of good reasons to use softer bullets for hunting and a gas checked cast bullet in .44 mag can be shot well at near factory load levels.
If your mold is the plain base version Lyman 429241 , you can still use 44 Cal. aluminum plain base gas checks available from member here on the forum, Sagesoutdoors:
If you had selected Linotype for higher load level, the gas checked bullet in #2 Alloy, for example, will handle equal load pressure to Linotype and #2 will expand excellently on game while allowing obduration of the bullet to complete fit on firing and Linotype won't obdurate at all while it is more critical to fit because of that.
The plain base aluminum checks work well with Lee Lube and Size Kit push through dies right on your press.
Consider my recommendation. The first thing I'd try is #2 alloy, Size/checked .430” with Aluminum plain based checks, White's Deluxe 45:45:10 lube and H Lilgun just under MAX. From Hodgdon:
Case: Winchester Twist: 1:20” Primer: Remington 2 1/2, Large Pistol Barrel Length: 8.275” Trim Length: 1.280” Bullet Weight240 GR. NOS JHP Starting Loads Maximum Loads Manufacturer Powder Bullet Diam. C.O.L. Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure Hodgdon Lil'Gun .429” 1.600” 22.5 gr START 1,465 fps 30,100 CUP 24.5 gr MAXIMUM 1,582 fps 38,100 CUP
A gas checked #2 Alloy bullet will handle this load pressure well and be a little faster than this data but with lower pressure due to your slightly lighter cast bullet and your barrel length likely ~1,620 fps @ 24 gr Lilgun....A Deer smacking load.
Gary
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Gary,
Not sure why you've posted to my OP. Unless I missed something your message has little info I'm looking for.
I plan on using the gun for plinking and Hog hunting.
The reason for Lino is as you will note in the OP the cast diam. will barely meet the size required. If that bullet gives decent accuracy then I'll order the same thing from MBC out of 12 or 18 Bhn.
It appears you are not familiar with the Lyman 429241. It is the bullet Elmer Keith developed for the .44 mag. which he was instrumental in developing.
The load you recommend probably won't work all that well in the twist rate (rifle slower) and barrel length (rifle longer). So... If you don't mind I'd really like to talk with those who have actual experience with .44 Mag. lever guns. I just used the rifle I'm getting to put in the subject line. Anyone with one of the modern makes is more than welcome to chime in. Might even be able to work up something for TFS.
Pete
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I have no experience with the Japanese Winchesters, but I understand from others that they are well made and shoot well.
I load for an 1894S Marlin in .44 Magnum which has a 38” twist Microgroove barrel. I also have a similar 1894S in .44-40 which also has the slow twist and Microgroove rifling.
I use mostly 1:30 tin/lead alloy from Roto Metals for both recreational shooting and hunting. I use a charge of 7.2 grains of Bullseye in both .44-40 and .44 Magnum as a plinking load, which approximates .44-40 energy. For a heavier hunting load I use 24.5 grains of Alliant RL7, with the Accurate 43-230G bullet, which is a compressed powder charge giving about 1350 fps.
I have not seen any need for heavier loads as these perform well for deer and varmints. I've written several articles in the Fouling Shot on my experiences with the .44-40 and cast bullets, and all of that can also be applied to assembling “medium velocity” loads for the .44 Magnum for either rifle or revolver.
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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Pete,
YOu will probably find that the 429421 lyman Keith bullet will have too long a nose to feed thru the mag of your M92. I found that to be the case when loading for my Orig M92 Win 44WCF (44-40).
A good shooting bullet is the 429215 GC, 215 gr SWC. , particularly in the slower twist rifles like mine and yours.
Secondly, I believe NOE sells a clone of LYman 429434-- 206 gr RFN GC bullet deisgned for the 44-40. My Orig Lyman 429434 HP bullet, 9+1 WW/Lino .430 GC bullet driven in my M92 44-40 rifle by 22 gr 4227. Shoots “cloverleaves” at 75 yds .
This is a modest load in 44-40, but did a good job on my second last Whitetail- one shot at 60yds thru heart and out the other side- deer went about 75 yds and dropped dead. ANd it feeds perfectly thru magazine of the '92.
Have fun with the '92. Will be intersted to hear how it shoots
beltfed/arnie
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Pete: Can't offer anything regarding your 44 mag, however I have had one of those 92 Winchesters in the SR carbine version for a few years. Mine is the .357 mag. It is a dandy as far as fit, finish and workmanship. And with the lyman 358156, it functions well and is amazingly accurate for a short little lever gun. Have fun with that 44.
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Ed,
I've heard nothing but good things about the Miroku made guns too. It's why I decided on the Winchester gun. Seems like on other forums all the other makes seem to have problems of one sort or another. More money but apparently less trouble.
Am wondering what the wgt. of that Accurate 43-230G is. Not being up on the Accurate way of listing their bullets, I'm assuming it's a nominal 230 grs.
I've got a Colt SAA, 3rd gen., 44/40 so will keep your loads in mind. Was thinking that if 230 gr., is correct for the wgt. of the Accurate that that would be a little on the heavy side for the 44/40. Thoughts?
Pete
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Arnie.
Your comments on the Lyman 429421 are interesting. I'd have thought that it would have been ideal in a rifle. I haven't run into any problems with it in the Smith .44 Mag. revolver. Of course a revolver doesn't have feeding problems. If you can stuff it into the cylinder your good to go. Will be sure and make up a dummy round before getting carried away with loading up a bunch while waiting. You might have saved me a bunch of trouble by mentioning that. Thanks!!
Will also keep your NOE bullet in mind. I was thinking on seeing if I have a mould in my inventory about that wgt. to use as a plinking load. Guess I've been brainwashed by all the forums with the guys saying they can't get the big heavy bullets to stabilize on their slow twist guns. Seems like they all think they need the heaviest bullet possible to kill deer with.
Good hearing from you. Born and raised in La Crosse.
Pete
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RD,
You don't know how close I came to just having my FFL dealer get me the 92 in .38/357. Don't own a .357 anymore so held out for the .44 Mag. The way my FFL guy talks he had to call all the dealers he's in touch with to finally come up with a wholesaler that had one left in stock. Seems like the Winchesters are kinda scarce.
Thought about the SRC too. But thought the Short Rifle would be a little easier to “tune” up. Talking to guys who tune these guns up the barrel bands of the SRC are the hard part. Did your SRC shoot good out of the box or did you “tune” it up? Thinking about shooting the “Deer” Postal match but will have to see what you can do as far as “tuning” it up.
Thinking about getting a tang sight . Know anything about those you can get to cover/replace the safety? Another option is to talk to my gunsmith and see if he will drill and tap the receiver side for that type sight.
Maybe when I get tired of the Mag. I'll get the .357. For upwards of 60+ yrs. my main hobby is to get a gun, wring it out, and then trade it off for another.
Pete
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Pete,
Re the Tang sight. That is what I have on my Wn 1892. YOu may be able to simply remove the safety and then use a small steel block “under” the safety slot which has been D&T for an 8-32 screw to anchor the front of a Marbles or Lyman tang sight. The rear of the tang sight base is anchored by a slightly longer tang stock screw.
I did this on a couple of Ruger No 1's that I mounted Soule type target sights on for BPCR. It worked nicely. In the case of the Ruger No 1, since there is no tang stock screw, I had to inlet a threaded half coupling into the wood immediately behind the end of the tang in addition to the little 1/4x1/4 block under the safety slot.
beltfed/arnie
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Pete,
"The reason for Lino is as you will note in the OP the cast diam. will barely meet the size required."
The load pressure I recommended will easily obdurate and bump up your bullet if cast in #2 Alloy to a perfect fit. #2 alloy when cast for maximum diameter will fill your mold as well as Linotype when your bullets have an overall velvety appearance from a calculated high temperature cast.
It appeared you wanted to try this bullet in your rifle. I believe it will work fine if you cast for maximum diameter and size/check with Aluminum plain base checks at .430".
Accurate molds service includes cutting to cast a specific diameter in the alloy you specify. You can also specify flat nose diameter/length and ring sizes to Accurate and duplicate your interpretation of Keith designs if you wish.
My experience with .44 Mag is with S&W pistols, I have used Keith molds and variants, but not currently. You will find that cast 44 Mag bullets in a rifle are not sensitive to twist rates and the generalization that heavier cast bullets shoot better is valid with the .44 Mag rifle. I honestly thought you wanted to do the best with the mold you have to work with and I gave you my best recommendations just as I would try for myself with that mold. I'd cast #2 big as I could, tumble lube, size/check, tumble lube again, load with Lilgun then go to the range.
2 Alloy will bump up before it gets 1” down the bore at the load pressure I recommended and .430” size/check will be good if that is as big as you can size/check.
If you didn't have any bullet mold at all, I would first recommend the Lee TL-430-240-SWC. That bullet in #2 Alloy, un-sized and tumble lubed only, shoots great from lever-guns right up to the load level I recommended. It's simplicity and performance in 44 Mag rifles is magnificent with zero feed problems and a decent flat nose for Boar. That mold at $21.99 from MidwayUSA is an easy good start while Lee's new mold guide pin design is now at par with anybody and the 6 cavity mold at $41.99 has had that for a while: https://www.midwayusa.com/s?userSearchQuery=Lee+TL-430-240-SWC
Gary
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PETE
I would be surprised it the Miroku M92 Winchester didn't handle the 429421 as well as the Rossi or earlier Browning B-92 versions do. At least the one I shot a while back handled my own Lyman 429421, 429244 and 429640HP loads with aplomb. However, there are many versions of the 429421 made by Lyman and others and they do vary in length. I use full magnum level loads and as usual with a rifle shooting magnum 44 loads the PB'd 429421 was not as accurate as the two GC'd bullets. I always recommend that with a PB'd cast bullet in a magnum handgun cartridge used in a rifle/handgun combo that the load be worked up for accuracy in the rifle using handgun load data. That load will also most often be very accurate in the handgun.
If you find your 429421 functions in your M92 (excellent choice BTW) then you might develop an accurate load for the rifle and then use it in your revolver for practice and plinking. I would highly recommend the Lyman 429640HP cast of 16-1 alloy for hunting over 23 gr of H110. You will find that to be an extremely accurate and deadly load, especially on deer, pigs and elk.
LMG
Concealment is not cover.........
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Ed,
I've heard nothing but good things about the Miroku made guns too. It's why I decided on the Winchester gun. Seems like on other forums all the other makes seem to have problems of one sort or another. More money but apparently less trouble.
Am wondering what the wgt. of that Accurate 43-230G is. Not being up on the Accurate way of listing their bullets, I'm assuming it's a nominal 230 grs.
I've got a Colt SAA, 3rd gen., 44/40 so will keep your loads in mind. Was thinking that if 230 gr., is correct for the wgt. of the Accurate that that would be a little on the heavy side for the 44/40. Thoughts?
Pete The Accurate 43-230G is nominally 230 grains from 1:30 alloy. It is a dual crimp groove design which provides proper overall length for the .44 Magnum or .44-40 when crimped into the front groove, and is correct in the .44 Special and Russian when seated out and crimped in the rear groove. It works well with smokeless loads in .44-40 rifles and revolvers. Lubricant capacity isn't adequate for rifle use with black powder, but if you want a heavy .44-40 bullet with adequate lube capacity for use with Goex powder in rifles the 43-230EB is a good choice, and performs with black powder even in Microgroove barrels using SPG lube!
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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Here is 43-230EB, which is intended for blackpowder use.
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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I have a Miroku/Winchester 92 in .44 Magnum. My Keith bullet is out of a LBT mold and will not feed from the magazine. It's .750” in length with .440” of it outside the case. I also have a LBT 280gr. LFN with .35” nose that does feed at a COAL of 1.650"
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Pete: Well, Ive got a few years on you. So when I finally decided that I was going after a .357 lever gun, my first choice was the Marlin CB. But by that time they were about as scarce as the “92". Did find one but Winchester had a promotion then where in they would reimbuse the sales tax so I went for the Win. Both rifles were about the same price any way. Pretty much the same story as you. I really wanted the short rifle but my dealer finally found the carbine so that is what I ended up with. In the end, not a real big deal anyway for my intended purpose. I haven't done anything to the rifle other than to get rid of that "idiotic” rebounding hammer feature and shoot it just as it came out of the box which was the intent at the outset. With basically the same load as I have used in my .357 revolvers for 50 years it will bust clays at 100 with regularity over the open sights as well as other stuff, and fills the bill for me as just a fun little rifle to shoot. Regarding tang sights. The only one that I am familiar with is the Marbles. I had one put on my Marlin CB 38-55 that is used for lever gun silhouette and the tolerances were so loose that it was useless and a waste of my money.
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R.Dupraz
The Marbles tang sight on my 336CB is tight and has worked well, tho I had to have Marbles install a taller stem on it. But, for serious lever gun Silhouette or gong matches, I will replace it with a Soule type tang sight. Probably a surplus Brg/AET tang sight I have on hand.
Meanwhile, the Orig Lyman 1A tang sight on my Orig M92 Win has served me well. Its tight and good enough for hunting. I have it zeroed for 100 yds. and the buckhorn barrel sight is still there for quick short range in the woods shots.
beltfed/arnie
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Arnie,
Thanks for the info on the tang sight for the Win. M92. Sounds like a viable option.
Pete
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Gary,
I'm not a great fan of bumping bullets up. Prefer to size bullets at the least .0005” over bore. More like .001” to .002". Undersize bullets can lead to all kinds of problems. The base band on that Keith bullet in the OP is not very thick. Actually seems to be to thin for the caliber. Might be a possibility of gas cutting. That's all supposition on my part , but don't want to find out either.
I will be trying the Keith bullet and hopefully can find a load that will work in both the .44 Spec. and rifle. So that will be the first order of business. Might be forced tho to go to another bullet if the note in another post say it won't chamber in his Win. 92.
Pete
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LMG,
Seems to be some thoughts that the Keith bullet won't work in the Win. 92. Guess the only way to find out is to wait for the rifle to show and make a couple of dummies and see.
Your idea of finding an acceptable load for rifle and pistol matches what I'm thinking.
Good point on using handgun data for working up PB bullet loads. Hadn't quite thought of it in that way. Personally I'm not a “magnum” load sort. Preferring something milder for “tin Can” shooting. Don't know what it is about the word “Magnum” that makes people think they ought to be trying for the hardest hitting load they can come up. That's about all you see mentioned in other forums. I chose the .44 Mag. because I can load ballistics for just about any .44 cal. cartridge.
Back in another life I had an OM Ruger Super BH and had jacketed loads for it that would penetrate the side of old cars and bust into the water jacket. Kicked pretty good too! :) When It comes to hunting pigs I'll work something a little stouter than “Tin Can” loads.
Pete
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Ed,
Thanks for the info and pictures of the accurate bullet. Looks like an interesting item. Will certainly keep it in mind.
You mention loading it in a .44-40. I guess I wasn't aware of that. Always thought on a 205 gr. + or - was about the maximum wgt. bullet you wanted to use for that caliber. About all I've seen is the 205 gr. bullet being used almost exclusively. Thinking on it a bit I suppose my 3rd gen. Colt .44-40 would be able to handle it. Do you think the same would apply to the old 1st gen. guns?
Pete
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