Gas check shank shortened to .045 so that gas check fits flush with first drive band. Tip of bullet has been squared to reduce pesky finning...easier casting. Bore ride diameter increased to .221. This loooong .224 caliber bullet shoots very well in a 1/12 twist barrel.
NOE 227 80 SP (IMPROVED)
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- Last Post 13 September 2016
joeb33050
posted this
06 May 2016
I keep adding total bullet length to .82". Greenhill says a bullet .82” long needs a 9” twist.
I'd like to try some of these, at least 25, in one of my 22-250 barrels with 12” twist.
Joe Brennan 605 Water Oak Blvd. Lady Lake FL 32159
Thanks; joe b.
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OU812
posted this
06 May 2016
Greenhill and all others were wrong .
My mold has been sent off to be milled .035 shorter. I will send you a few when it returns. Softer 10 bhn alloys work verygood at sub 1800 velocities using Titegroup and other quick burning powders.
....
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Paul Pollard
posted this
08 May 2016
Finally. The Greenhill formula has been discarded. "Conventional Wisdom” with the Greenhill formula is hard to shake.
Thank you for doing some real world testing as opposed to what is carved in stone.
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frnkeore
posted this
08 May 2016
OU812, Have you or, could you measure the twist in that barrel?
The bullet/twist combo is so far off that it would be helpful to make sure the twist is accurate.
I've shot bullets that have a stability factor of 1.2 - 1.3 (Miller) and while they reach the target, they show obvious to sever tipping @ 200.
I get a stability factor of under 1.1 @ 1400 fps and just over 1.1 @ 1800 fps for your bullet/twist on two different calulators, neither are the Greenhill.
Frank
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joeb33050
posted this
08 May 2016
Finally. The Greenhill formula has been discarded. "Conventional Wisdom” with the Greenhill formula is hard to shake.
Thank you for doing some real world testing as opposed to what is carved in stone. I didn't discard the Greenhill formula, and I ain't alone. At ranges up to at least 500 yards, I've never known of or seen a bullet fail to stabilize when greenhill says it will, and I've never known or seen a bullet fail to at least tip markedly when Greenhill says it won't stabilize. The NOE 277-80 bullet won't stay on the paper at 100 yards in my 3 rifle barrels, all 12” twist and a 12” twist pistol. All 22-250. That's real world testing. (John Kenneth Galbraith coined the phrase “Conventional Wisdom", and he never discarded Greenhill or his formula.) The rumors of Greenhill's discarding are greatly exaggerated.
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OU812
posted this
09 May 2016
I double checked twist rate by pushing cleaning rod down barrel and it is a 1-12 twist barrel. By looking at bullet holes there was some slight tipping of 75 gr bullet , but grouping was good @ 100 yards...maybe grouping will be lots worse @ 200 yards?
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joeb33050
posted this
09 May 2016
The target shows unstable bullets, going through the paper, when they did, sideways. I spent half an hour with the Striker when I got home, checking twist with tight patches and brushes. It's around a 12” twist. It's not LESS than 12", could be 1/2” more. Close enough for me and Greenhill. This is real world testing of conventional wisdom, supporting Greenhill. And it ain't hard. Greenhill isn't discarded.
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OU812
posted this
10 May 2016
All of my groups were shot at @100 yards without filing off the pointed nose. You should file or cut the gas check shank down “square” so that “Hornaday” Copper gas check fits nearly flush with first band, seat the gas check “square” and use “LBT soft lube” in grease groove. 1-20 alloy groups best for me so far, but harder 13 bhn alloy shows improvement with with more velocity or pressure.
With good loading practices and concentric rounds most people like you can shoot this bullet accurately Joe.
BTW ...seat the bullet long in case (grease groove exposed) so that front band jams against rifling when chambered.
.....
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OU812
posted this
10 May 2016
While waiting for my shorter mold to arrive I cut a few more bullets.
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OU812
posted this
16 May 2016
Joe, Your bullets are in the mail. These are cast using 1-20 alloy and trimmed by hand. I am not familier with a 22-250, but about 7 grains of Tite Group should work.
BTW ...Wipe bases dry to remove excess lube, seat the bullet long in case (grease groove exposed) so that front band jams against rifling when chambered. Bullets are sized to .225 using LBT lube and Hornaday gas check.
Enjoy :) Keith S.
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Ken Campbell Iowa
posted this
16 May 2016
great stuff, guys ... this should be interesting ...
most likely a ” hmmmm ... ” moment...
or as some might say::
” what the ... ”
ken
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OU812
posted this
16 May 2016
These bullets WILL SHOOT accurately in a 1-12 twist barrel...bulge or no bulge
Watch and see!
...
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OU812
posted this
16 May 2016
Joe,
I want you to shoot these in your 1/12 twist barrel, but try saving and shooting a few in your 1-14 twist rifle also.
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joeb33050
posted this
17 May 2016
Joe,
I want you to shoot these in your 1/12 twist barrel, but try saving and shooting a few in your 1-14 twist rifle also.I have 2, 22-250 rifle barrels and a Striker pistol, all 12” twist as I measure them. I don't have a 14” twist barrel. The Savage catalog shows all 22-250 rifle barrels are 12” twist. I'm a little concerned about measuring twist with a tight patch on a cleaning rod. I think that if there's an error in measuring, it's toward INCREASING the inches per turn. A 12” twist barrel might measure 13” if the patched end slips, but it will never measure 11” because it can't make the revolution in fewer inches. That said, I'm getting between 12” and 12.5” per turn in these barrels. That and the Savage data pretty well convince me that the twist is 12". I wonder what the tolerance in inches is in twist rate. Thanks; joe b.
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Paul Pollard
posted this
18 May 2016
This was test from about one year ago with 2 new powders (for me), LT30 and LT32. LT30 is very close to H4198 in metered grains and velocity, but I started lower. The rifle is a 6ppc with a 1:14 twist. Bullet is the MX2 Eagan at .810” long. Greenhill formula says it's too long. As can be seen on the target, it did start out unstable with tipping. With increases in the powder charge, the velocity increased and the tipping went away. I'm sure that the BC is not the optimum if the bullet were completely stable, but the accuracy satisfies me.
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Paul Pollard
posted this
18 May 2016
Here's the LT32 targets. Same pattern evolved with increased powder charge.
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OU812
posted this
18 May 2016
A softer alloy (10 bhn) will stabilize at lower velocity. Harder alloys need to be pushed faster to find the sweet spot.
I am curious why the John Alaxander bullet starts shooting lots better when I cut .035 off gas check shank. Is the bullet better balanced now?
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OU812
posted this
18 May 2016
I had local machine shop mill off .035” to shorten gas check shank. I finish sanded it down .005” more shorter (.040 total) which is now perfect length so that gas check nearly butts up to first band. This is my first brass mold and so far I like it better than aluminum. Aluminum is lighter, but galls much easier.
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mtngun
posted this
18 May 2016
Dang, some of your LT30 groups look pretty good, Paul ! :cool:
Miller says SF=1.03 (0.82” long, 32F, sea level). Right on the ragged edge.
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Ken Campbell Iowa
posted this
18 May 2016
ou812
re: cutting base
back before i sunk to ” just plinking ” ...i lathe turned off the bases of a bunch of 224438 ... already short...
and they shot better.
maybe it is the cutting ... and base improvement ... that made the difference .
just a thought .
also, in greehill, with the same length, isn't the shape of the bullet important; spitzer or round nose ... ?
also, spinning the bullet increases it's resistance to an upsetting force ... the more perfect the bullet ( at muzzle exit ) the less spin it needs ....and of course the near-perfect bullet sees less upsetting force of the little sideways kick at muzzle exit .... thus a marginal greenhill bullet might do ok if it leaves the muzzle in good form ..
ken
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Paul Pollard
posted this
29 May 2016
OU812,
Would it be possible for you to provide step-by-step instructions on how you process your bullets? Maybe I can attempt to make mine as nice-looking as yours. It may also help to explain why your bullets are stable when other's are not.
Thanks.
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OU812
posted this
30 May 2016
I have two of these three cavity molds and both cast differently:
Pre heat cold mold by dipping end of mold in melt for 30 seconds.
The earlier first production aluminum mold requires pressure casting at 850-900 degrees because mold's vent lines are cut more shallow (less venting). Turn pressure or flow rate down to reduce finning at bullets tip. I leave sprue plate slightly loose so that it swings freely. After pouring into cavity I apply downward pressure using gloved hand to cut sprue flush. I remove fins at bullet's tip with thumbnail.
The brass mold does not require pressure casting (deeper vent lines), but melt must be hot (850-900 degrees) for best fillout and less rejects. Turn down flow rate so puddle does not back up on sprue plate and poors directly into hole. I leave sprue plate slightly loose so that it swings freely. After pouring into cavity I apply downward pressure using gloved hand to cut sprue flush. I use only the front and rear cavity of when casting, avoiding the center cavity for better venting.
Aluminum mold galds easier so lube is important. Brass does not gald, but dings easier.
The brass mold was cut down .040 and the aluminum was cut down .035 (about a 30 day wait for Erik Ohlan's service)
The bore ride diameter of all bullets cast measure .2194-.2198. I believe bullets would shoot better if bore ride section was a tad larger .221
Gas checks sanded flush ,seated and sized nose first thru RCBS Lube A Matic
All casting done with RCBS Pro Melt furnace.
...
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OU812
posted this
30 May 2016
Bore ride section can be increased slightly using Linotype alloy. I may cast some tomorrow to see how well these shoot.
My new Leupold 45 power scope with Burris Rings. These 30mm rings have -10 degree or 0 degree plastic inserts to help center scope while installing and bore sighting.
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OU812
posted this
03 June 2016
Today I learned this bullet likes soft 20/1 alloy and more pressure. 7.5 grains of Titegroup powder did best. The faster I push this bullet the more accurate it is. Conditions were hot 91 degrees and humid.
Loads using hard linotype alloy were all over the target (poor accuracy). Bullet does not like hard alloys. Throw the Lyman Cast Bullet manual in trash can.
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mtngun
posted this
03 June 2016
Good shooting, OU812. :)
How do you like your new Leupold?
Dave Scovill is a fan of soft alloys (just the opposite of me). One of his articles demonstrated that a certain soft bore riding bullet was more accurate in a 30/30 than the same bullet cast hard. Recovered bullets showed that the soft alloy allowed the undersize nose to obturate and grab some rifling, whereas nose of the hard version did not obturate and did not grab the rifling. (As I read his article I wondered “why not make the nose the correct diameter in the first place?")
Other than that sort of thing, it's not obvious why a GC linotype bullet should fail, assuming it is already big enough to form a gas seal and assuming the nose is already big enough to grab some rifling.
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OU812
posted this
03 June 2016
I like the Leupold more than the Weaver. It is easier to find retical, knobs turn much easier and side focus is very nice. Lots better looking too. You get what you pay for. Currently Midway is offering a $100.00 rebate when you buy this scope...list price $1099.99.
obturate... that's it...the word I did not know how to spell or pronounce. I bet a lot of long bore riding bullets would shoot better using softer 20-1 alloy.
The bore ride section measures .2194 with the soft 20-1 alloy ... loose fit in rifle...no rifling marks after chambering...accurate
The bore ride section measures .2201 with harder linotype alloy...slip fit...rifling marks on bullet after chambering... bad accuracy.
Bullets were loaded long in case so that concentricity could be corrected within .003 using NECO gauge. Bullet is pushed back into case (looser neck tension) when chambered.
...
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OU812
posted this
16 June 2016
Groups got larger as velocity increased. Here are velocities using Titegroup powder. Next time out I will use just one powder charge of 7.4grs and fire two groups of ten to see if group starts to open and if barrel fowling is a problem. I will try different lubing methods and lubes. I tumbled some bullets in sand and will hand lube (full synthetic two stroke oil) after bullet is seated in case.
7.4 gr 1784fps 7.8 gr 1826fps 8.4 gr 1900fps 8.6 gr 2100fps
Case heads expanded only .001 with 8.6gr charge.
My chronograph was peppered with gas check hits when velocity was increased and harder birdshot alloy (about 12bhn) was used.
....
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OU812
posted this
18 June 2016
Reinventing the wheel?
Bullets tumbled in 80 grit garnet sand. I washed bullets afterwards in acetone to remove any remaining sand. Lube clings lots better now. Hopefully I can shoot longer strings without fouling.
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OU812
posted this
23 June 2016
Here is one descent 10 shot group using 7.5 grains of Titegroup powder. I am still tweaking this bullet and expect better results with different lubing methods. This group was shot using LBT Blue soft lube in single groove (not tumbled in sand).
A light coating of Stihl Synthetic 2 cycle oil applied to sand tumbled bullets may cut down on fouling. I also made some lube using 8 ozs beeswax to 1 oz Stihl synthetic 2 stroke oil. Maybe 8 ozs to 2 ozs will work better.
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Paul Pollard
posted this
25 June 2016
The bullets on the bottom were left to soak overnight in Krud Kutter, then washed in alcohol. They were etched slightly. Bullets on the top were washed in alcohol only, no etching. Then light tumble lube. Haven't tried them yet. It might be an alternative to sand.
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OU812
posted this
30 June 2016
I wonder if rethroating the barrel using the 5.56 NATO reamer would improve accuracy.
PTG 5.56 NATO reamer specs:
Leade length:.0566"
Leade diameter: .2265
Taper per side: 1-13-24
I can size bullets to a larger .226 for a tighter case neck to case wall fit.
....
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OU812
posted this
30 June 2016
Full length resizing reduces chamber pressure. Hornaday makes a full length bushing die with a .226 neck expander button option. Case necks will spring back to .224 for better fit. This will work perfect for my oversize .226 bullets.
Expander part number: 396277
Full Length Bushing Die: 544229
....
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OU812
posted this
05 July 2016
First group (top) was smallest and groups got worse as shooting continued and barrel got hotter. I waited 15 minutes between each group and without cleaning. Best group was first group (clean barrel) 20-1 alloy bullets sized .2245, 7.5 grins Titegroup powder. I will load more of these same loads and try different cleaning intervals and different amount of lube.
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OU812
posted this
06 July 2016
?v=5z56OsVGPx8
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OU812
posted this
06 July 2016
I Just got bored and posted something to get the heart pumping...Norwegian black metal.
I believe my gas checks are flying off as barrel gets dirtier. Next I will try Annealing gas checks. Should have tried this already.
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OU812
posted this
10 July 2016
I annealed and cleaned gas checks. Next I sanded gas check skirts evenly.
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OU812
posted this
11 July 2016
I will try gluing gas checks with epoxy before crimping. Then test 20 rounds each glued vs. non glued.
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mtngun
posted this
13 July 2016
I Just got bored and posted something to get the heart pumping...Norwegian black metal.
I believe my gas checks are flying off as barrel gets dirtier. Next I will try Annealing gas checks. Should have tried this already.Have you seen any evidence of flying gas checks, or are you just bored and looking for something new to try?
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OU812
posted this
13 July 2016
I have seen evidence of flying gas checks without shooting thru poster board, I will go to range within next couple of days to see if annealing and gluing helped...grouping should tell.
I pulled bullets from some loaded rounds and all gas checks (un annealed) separated from bullet and were lodged in case necks. I believe softer annealed checks would have prevented this. Still learning.
Shooting 20 rounds with same load is my new standard during testing...two groups of ten.
...
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mtngun
posted this
13 July 2016
I pulled bullets from some loaded rounds and all gas checks (un annealed) separated from bullet and were lodged in case necks. I believe softer annealed checks would have prevented this. Still learning.
9 times out of 10, pulled bullets will leave their gas check in the case. Yet gas checks rarely come off when fired. The difference is that fired bullets are pushed from behind, not pulled.
I haven't had time to shoot lately :( :( :( so no update on my 6BR's errant GC problem.
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OU812
posted this
13 July 2016
I just pulled a bullet (annealed check) from case and gas check stayed attached to bullet. Maybe annealed gas check will stay attached when fired.
The old Lyman checks were designed to fly off during flight...so they say.
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OU812
posted this
15 July 2016
Grouping did not improve after annealing and gluing on gas checks. I left the range feeling a little disappointed ...I hope groups improve with other changes such as enlarging bore ride diameter and powder charges.
Left top target: First 10 shots from clean barrel and no fouling shots fired (annealed gas checks).
Bottom left target: 2nd set of ten shots fired from hot dirty barrel (annealed gas checks).
Top right target: Clean barrel and no fouling shots fired (annealed and epoxied gas checks)
Bottom right target: Hot dirty barrel (annealed and epoxied gas checks).
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Ken Campbell Iowa
posted this
16 July 2016
my impression is that the glued groups are better .... and a cold clean.... no foulers ... group might be suspect .
interesting how so many little things make groups worse but so few things make groups better .... no fair !!
ken
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OU812
posted this
21 July 2016
I enlarged the boreride section from .219 to .222 using 600 grit sandpaper. Counter clockwise rotation works best (reversible drill). After casting I resized boreride using NOE .221 nose sizer. Rifling marks are now more visible after chambering.
The annealed gas checks are glued on using slow JB Weld.
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OU812
posted this
21 July 2016
This method was easier, but requires careful taping to get right.
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John Alexander
posted this
21 July 2016
I have enlarged the nose on several of my NOE cavities using more a conventional lapping method and limiting the lapping to the nose by turning down the other portions of the lap except the tapered nose and last driving band left for bearings. I would like to hear more about the details of you sandpaper method. If it is successful it would make a good Fouling Shot article. John
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OU812
posted this
21 July 2016
A senior machinist once taught me how to enlarge holes using sandpaper rolled up on metal or wood rod.
Hopefully enlarging boreride will improve grouping?
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mtngun
posted this
21 July 2016
OU812, I admire your willingness to experiment and your attention to detail.
Hard to say how accuracy will be affected by a fatter nose. Cast bullets don't always do what we think they should do. :D
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OU812
posted this
03 August 2016
Accuracy was getting worse every trip out at the range.I found out that my barrel was extremely dirty and fouled. So today I did a “much better job of cleaning” using a new brass brush and Hoppes solvent. Patches are exiting barrel lots cleaner now. Hopefully accuracy returns.
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reggleston
posted this
04 August 2016
Interested in your NOE 80 grain bullet. Have any of shot this bullet in a 1-9 twist rifle? What kind of powder and charge are you using? What type of gas checks are you using? What is the MV of some of your good shooting loads?
R D Eggleston
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John Alexander
posted this
06 August 2016
I have shot a lot of the original NOE22780SP (unimproved) bullets in 8” twist and some in 9” twist both with good results. The 8” twist is a better rifle and I have been competitive in CBA competition with it. I'm sure that it would do as well in the 9” twist with an equal quality rifle.
My loads have been low velocity with light charges (5 -6 grains of TiteGroup) and Hornady Gas Checks.
The excellent groups OU812 has been getting have been with the modified bullet shortened a small amount which apparently amazingly makes them stable in a 12” twist. I would expect the shortened bullets to work as well in a 9” twist if everything else is equal.
John
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OU812
posted this
08 August 2016
Thanks John for answering his question.
Lately I have been constipating on gas check installation...annealed vs. standard, glued vs. standard, sizing with Lee vs. RCBS. Seems sizing nose first in the RCBS squares gas check to base better, especially if I use the 22 caliber hollow tip nose punch.
Shooting the larger diameter bore ride versions will be later...after I figure out which gas check method works best.
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OU812
posted this
08 August 2016
So far I have shot my best groups when gas checks were installed nose first thru the RCBS .225 sizer using RCBS #506 nose punch. Notice ring around annealed gas check base.
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OU812
posted this
09 August 2016
Cleaned between every 10 shot group. Sizing with the Lee and gluing on regular gas check shot best.
20/1 alloy, sized .2450, seated long to chamber more deep. 7.5 gr TiteGroup powder (1800fps) Winchester primer Lapua cases full length resized, LBT soft Blue lube.
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OU812
posted this
09 August 2016
Targets 4 and 5 (top right targets) were the last two groups fired and the largest groups. Maybe there was fouling left in the barrel after cleaning that caused groups to open more. A factory barrel can be harder to clean than I first thought.
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mtngun
posted this
10 August 2016
Great shooting, OU812. :dude: Thanks for sharing your results.
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OU812
posted this
21 August 2016
Here are the as cast bore ride section diameters after enlarging mold with sandpaper. I will size the bore ride section down for a more perfect snug fit. Then compare sized vs smaller unsized. Sizing the .2217 bullets down to .220 is harder than you would think (NOE tool used)
As far as gas check testing goes. I have decided to keep things more simple by installing a regular gas check using a .226 Lee sizer. Then lube and size base first using the RCBS lube machine with NOE matching nose punch.
I discovered that the Birdshot alloy likes about 6.0 grains of Tite Group and shoots very well in the 1-12 twist barrel.
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OU812
posted this
21 August 2016
My wifes truck got totaled and I had to buy a new truck.
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OU812
posted this
22 August 2016
My rifle will not chamber a .221 diameter bullet...yet. So I sized down the .2212 diameter bullets to .220 diameter (two left rows).
Sizing down the larger .2217 diameter bullets to .220 was too difficult...so I did not size those.
The .2202 diameter bullets just touched the .220 sizer (two far right rows).
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mtngun
posted this
22 August 2016
Sizing the .2217 bullets down to .220 is harder than you would think (NOE tool used)
I suspect the sizing difficulty is due to the nature of the die. By comparison, only modest effort is required to nose size BHN 40 bullets in my homemade nose dies.
Nice truck. I'm still driving antiques. :D
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joeb33050
posted this
22 August 2016
OU812 BULLETS, SHOT TODAY, ALL WERE STABLE. joe b.
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OU812
posted this
22 August 2016
"KID ON CELL PHONE” hit my wifes 2003 truck in the rear causing it to spin around and flipping on its side. His insurance paid for everything (ambulance ride, emergency room, doctor, therapy, pain and suffering). Be sure to watch for traffic in your rear view mirror.
I did not want to buy a new truck, but I had to. This incident put me in debt.
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OU812
posted this
22 August 2016
OU812 BULLETS, SHOT TODAY, ALL WERE STABLE.
joe b.
Joe, Be sure to clean that .223 barrel well. Fouling will really throw those tiny bullets off target. I now scrub barrel after every 25 shots with Remington 40x Bore Cleaner. (follow directions on bottle carefully)
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joeb33050
posted this
22 August 2016
OU812 BULLETS, SHOT TODAY, ALL WERE STABLE.
joe b.
Joe, Be sure to clean that .223 barrel well. Fouling will really throw those tiny bullets off target. I now scrub barrel after every 25 shots with Remington 40x Bore Cleaner. (follow directions on bottle carefully)I clean barrels as little as possible, 3 oderless paint thinner patches, 2 synthetic oil patches. Today I shot ~125 shots without cleaning, and the gun shot about as well at the end as at the beginning. LLA seems to do the trick. Overcleaning, as dangerous as overbeering! joe b.
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OU812
posted this
27 August 2016
I have two of these three cavity molds.
The aluminum version was modified by enlarging bore ride section and trimming top of mold for a shorter gas check shank. Today I shot about 20 rounds to see if sizing the bore ride section to a more round .220 diameter would improve accuracy. Using 6.0 grains of Tite Group these bullets shot poorly...tilting was obvious. I think more velocity is needed to stabilize.
The brass mold was trimmed shorter for a more short gas check shank and bullet. Using Birdshot alloy these bullets fall from mold with a very round .220-.2202 bore ride diameter (no bore ride sizing done). Gas checks need to be sanded square so not to bottom out on first band. Using 6.0 grains of Tite Group these 20 bullets shot very well...under one inch easily. I will load more of these to verify.
The NOE sizing tool works very well at seating gas check square and sizing bands.
I am getting closer. Once I figure it out I will give all loading info.
...
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OU812
posted this
10 September 2016
The bullets that were dipped in Lee Alox did well.
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OU812
posted this
10 September 2016
I almost blew up my Remington. One case had a double charge of Tite Group (6.5 + 6.5 = 13 grains total). Gases were blown back into my face...good thing I was wearing glasses. Bolt would not lift and open. I had to remove barrel to remove bolt and dremel out the swollen brass case head from inside bolt face. Extractor is broken and ordered a new one. This same rifle with matching bolt will shoot again :P
I learned one thing. Bullets are leaving barrel at a slower 1700fps, so a good consistent hold on light rifle is most important.
...
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Ken Campbell Iowa
posted this
10 September 2016
good to have a reminder ::: take the time needed and concentrate .
thank you .
ken
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OU812
posted this
13 September 2016
?v=E9n33N6cq50
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