Bee's wax

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  • Last Post 27 August 2016
Notlwonk posted this 18 August 2016

Any body tried using Bee's wax foundation between the powder and bullet? This is what bee keepers use in their hives, comes in thin sheets.  

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358156hp posted this 18 August 2016

Somewhere around here I have a box of CF Ventures Soft Gas Check sheets. IIRC, they were thin sheets of dental wax that you pressed over the mouth of a powder charged straight handgun case before seating the bullet. It did work, but I never really developed any real enthusiasm for the process. I would be concerned about beeswax melting and fouling the powder charge, but I've never really thought about it before.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 19 August 2016

since i * almost * refuse to use copper gas checks i have wondered about trying wax plugs of different materials and lengths behind the bullet base ... maybe a wax plug 3/8 inch long ?? isn't that what gas checks do::::: check gas ?? or not entirely ?? or would the light plug tilt the bullet at muzzle exit ??

seems like it would be an interesting project for some energetic young cb shooter ... oh i forgot there doesn't seem to be ANY young cb shooters ...sigh .,..

anyway a long necked case ( 30-30 ? ) would seem good for such an experiment ... hey i think 30-30 is available in those accurate remmy 788 ... darn it i traded off my handi-rifle in 30-30 ... knew better too ...

anybody wanna trade me a 788 in 30-30 for a nice rem 721 in 30-06 ??

ken

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Duane Mellenbruch posted this 19 August 2016

Beeswax melts at about 145 degrees so should not have to worry too much about that. The CFVentures SGC material is about .030 or so thick. That wax plug might not be a great idea given the pressure applied by the ignition of powder. I would be thinking it might bulge the barrel from the sudden pressure. So you ask, why would not a cast bullet do the same, and I would answer yield strength?

The wax sheet is supposed to be sacrificed to cool the hot gases and stop gas cutting along the sides of the bullet.

http://www.caversham16.freeserve.co.uk>http://www.caversham16.freeserve.co.uk

I have not visited that site for a while so it might not be good. Well, apparently the link is broken.  Maybe I can find it tomorrow.

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stevebarrett posted this 19 August 2016

I once spent a long time using dental wax “gas checks” in a Luger P08 and a broomhandle Mauser in a Ransom Rest. In both cases I got significantly worse groups with the gas checks than without.

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RicinYakima posted this 19 August 2016

I too chased this rabbit. If you have to shoot commercial too hard and too small bullets in revolvers, they decrease barrel leading, but that is about all they were good for my shooting.

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358156hp posted this 19 August 2016

I can verify that you'll need to do your load development all over again. I tried the soft gas checks in a moderate 41 mag load and was instantly rewarded with excessive pressures. I really didn't believe it would cause such a big change. I also recall a lot of talk a few years ago about plastic checks. PV or something along those lines. They were cut from things like milk jugs.

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Eutectic posted this 20 August 2016

Seating a 9mm Luger bullet 1/16 inch deeper raises a normal pressure load to proof levels. A 1/16 inch thick wad has the same effect on pressure. A 1/32 inch thick wad greatly increases pressure and this can destroy cast bullet accuracy. Wad composition makes no difference, polyethylene acts the same. I have not worked with wads in the 40 S&W but I expect this still holds true. Be very careful with wads in small cases. Always reduce the charge and work up slowly.

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onondaga posted this 21 August 2016

Ken Campbell Iowa wrote: since i * almost * refuse to use copper gas checks..... BPI Original is a maker recommended ballistic filler with claims that it forms a quasi gas check seal and protects the bullet base from direct flame. The stuff works for me well with plain base flat nose 350 gr cast tumble lubed bullets in .500 S&W rifle with my 1700 fps Bear load easily grouping under 1” @50 yds. There are some reports that the BPI also cleans the bore, I haven't needed or noted that. They shoot clean. My bullets cast heavy from the RCBS 50-340. I have stayed with the BPI load and a couple of powders that do 1700 with the filler for 10 years. I don't believe the rifle will do better with anything else: http://www.ballisticproducts.com/BPI-Original-Design-Buffer-500cc/productinfo/BUFFER/>http://www.ballisticproducts.com/BPI-Original-Design-Buffer-500cc/productinfo/BUFFER/

MidwayUSA sells it too.

And my Lyman #55 throws BPI original just fine. I believe that using BPI for the gas check effect takes at least quantity that is a bullet caliber thick in the case over the powder and slightly compressed is needed for the gas check effect.

Gary

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stevebarrett posted this 21 August 2016

RicinYakima wrote: I too chased this rabbit. If you have to shoot commercial too hard and too small bullets in revolvers, they decrease barrel leading, but that is about all they were good for my shooting. I didn't try revolvers, but I did find that if the bullets had been overly reduced in size, or excessively squashed by taper crimping, dental wax gas checks did improve their poor performance. But shooting undersized bullets obviously wasn't an ambition.

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Notlwonk posted this 21 August 2016

OK, I left out an important bit of info. The intent was to use this with black powder loads, I've heard of using grease plugs over the powder to soften the fouling. Thought this would be an easy alternative, the foundation was free from a neighbor bee keeper.

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delmarskid1 posted this 21 August 2016

My thought is if you have it give it a try and let US know. I bet it will work. I might try it between the bullet and my card wad. My friend uses grease cookies in his 45-90 and Swiss 1.5X black. Shoots like crazy and never wipes between shots. Just the blow tube.

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Notlwonk posted this 22 August 2016

Well, tried the wax in a 38-40 Hiwall. 35 grains of FFFG and a Lyman 20:1 bullet with 2 and 3 layers of the wax. The accuracy went after about 5-6 shots. Guess I'll stick with the 4759/FFFG load. 

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delmarskid1 posted this 23 August 2016

I'm a duplex believer myself.

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Westhoff posted this 25 August 2016

First, I don't think Beeswax is something beekeepers buy to put in their hives; beeswax is something the bees make and form into honeycomb, in which the Queen lays her eggs.

To get back to beeswax as a bullet lubricant, E. H. Harrison, in his article “Bullet Lubricants” in NRA's publication “Cast Bullets” gives a history of the association's extensive investigation toward lubricants “to improve the accuracy of cast bullets and raise their velocity limit."

As most of us know, they finally settled on a 50-50 mix of Alox 2138F and beeswax. in regard to this mixture, Harrison states that “Success of this lubricant is due to the Alox; the beeswax is the best material found to give the desired consistency.” The article also includes a list of the composition of extensively used Bullet lubricants. Apparently beeswax was used by the U.S. Army as far back as 1855.

I've used Javelina Bullet lube (NRA'S 50-50 Beeswax-Alox 2138 mix) with complete satisfaction for both rifle and pistol for many years.

Wes

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Westhoff posted this 26 August 2016

Just re-scanned the steam cylinder oil discussion here. Anybody know what the polarity of beeswax is?

Wes

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RicinYakima posted this 26 August 2016

Positive and negative. At least on different sides of the majority of molecules (about 200)that make up “beeswax". :)

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Westhoff posted this 27 August 2016

Since I majored in Journalism and then spent my working life in Civil Engineering and Heavy and high rise construction, I'm a little short on my chemistry smarts. Does the positive cancel out the negative and leave beeswax in a kind of no-help/no-harm situation?

Wes

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 27 August 2016

i get a mental image of somebody hooking a battery charger to their barrel .... no doubt if they won, next shoot there would be a half-dozen hooked up ...

some city dude would probably have a diesel generator and color matching trailer ...

ken

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RicinYakima posted this 27 August 2016

Wes,

Imagine the molecules are dumbbells, with one end + and the other is -. So the molecules tend to line up + to - to + to -. To be a molecule it is electrically neutral, as a whole, but the ends are charged. So iron, that can be magnetized, allows the molecules to line up like good little soldiers. Lead that you can not magnetize, lets the molecules lay in any position they like.

HTH, Ric

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