ACCURACY RECIPES

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joeb33050 posted this 05 September 2016

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joeb33050 posted this 05 September 2016

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45 2.1 posted this 05 September 2016

"WILL NOT Indexing the bullet in the chamber. Precisely controlling alloy casting temperature or anything else Changing bullet alloy Changing bullet hardness Matching chamber pressure and bullet hardness Changing the lube Reaming the chamber throat. Making a die to match the reamed chamber throat and swaging/tapering the bullets. Re-crowning the barrel Lapping the barrel “

Items listed above will sometimes change dramatically how a rifle shoots..... in some rifles, not all.Groups can be cut in half when they do make a difference. These ARE NOT the crucial ones either. Without knowing what and how to do so, you probably won't find them.

There are more items in the can list also! Case capacity (all the same capacity) Ensuring the bullet goes into the throat concentric with the bore Proper alloy Non viscous lube etc.

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OU812 posted this 05 September 2016

Agood fitting and  round bullet is important. I like a bullet that seats longer into throat.

A gas check that is installed flat and square is important. Raised sprue cuts can hurt. The Lee sizers do well “IF" punch is faced off flat or slightly concave. NOE makes a precise push rod that has less burrs. Sizing nose first in the RCBS style sizers do well also if you use a good matching nose punch.

Most RCBS style lube machines that size and install gas check base first will size bullets “off center” causing non concentric rounds.

Lube base first using a RCBS sizer that is .001-.002 larger than sized bullet. The Over size die only lubes the bullet and does not size.

Check concentricity of loaded rounds and correct...especially bore riding rounds.

Good shooting technique

Fouled barrel is bad...OK.

Bases of these bullets were sanded square in drill press before seating gas check. Sanding removes flaws...I have shot my best groups with these.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 05 September 2016

barrel quality ..

the most successful mj bench shooter in history buys ( shilen ... buys? ) ... barrels by the dozen ...

when i wuz racing toy cars for a big race we would dyno several engines ...some were just better ... we were almost overcome with guilt ... ( g ) ...


as joeb sez, once the groups get down to the magic 1.5 moa the mountain gets steeper real quick .... i have talked with a few of the 1/2 moa club and their secrets are different .... shouldn't the secrets all be the same secrets ??

such fun...

and yes, some of joeb's ” wont ” list might be useful if it would fix a shortcoming ...if you buy a hand-lapped lilja barrel you don't need to relap the whole barrel ....but if you take 10 factory ruger/ barrels you would improve 8 of them by lapping ... maybe down to 1.5 moa groups !!

btw, once you get below 1.5 moa you really need a barrel vibration adjustable tuner ... eeeeek !!!

ken

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joeb33050 posted this 05 September 2016

45 2.1 wrote: "WILL NOT Indexing the bullet in the chamber. Precisely controlling alloy casting temperature or anything else Changing bullet alloy Changing bullet hardness Matching chamber pressure and bullet hardness Changing the lube Reaming the chamber throat. Making a die to match the reamed chamber throat and swaging/tapering the bullets. Re-crowning the barrel Lapping the barrel “

Items listed above will sometimes change dramatically how a rifle shoots..... in some rifles, not all.Groups can be cut in half when they do make a difference. These ARE NOT the crucial ones either. Without knowing what and how to do so, you probably won't find them.

There are more items in the can list also! Case capacity (all the same capacity) Ensuring the bullet goes into the throat concentric with the bore Proper alloy Non viscous lube etc.

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joeb33050 posted this 05 September 2016

OU812 wrote: Agood fitting and  round bullet is important. I like a bullet that seats longer into throat.

A gas check that is installed flat and square is important. Raised sprue cuts can hurt. The Lee sizers do well “IF" punch is faced off flat or slightly concave. NOE makes a precise push rod that has less burrs. Sizing nose first in the RCBS style sizers do well also if you use a good matching nose punch.

Most RCBS style lube machines that size and install gas check base first will size bullets “off center” causing non concentric rounds.

Lube base first using a RCBS sizer that is .001-.002 larger than sized bullet. The Over size die only lubes the bullet and does not size.

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/reply.php?topic_id=12981&post_id=97159&quote=1>Quote Check concentricity of loaded rounds and correct...especially bore riding rounds.

Good shooting technique

Fouled barrel is bad...OK.

Bases of these bullets were sanded square in drill press before seating gas check. Sanding removes flaws...I have shot my best groups with these.

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45 2.1 posted this 05 September 2016

joeb33050 wrote: Got data? Unfortunately, everybody does things to suit his own preference. Most of those things do little to get you accuracy. I have a lifetime of data, just not what you want laid out in targets and information. It takes a few wrong things to defeat your efforts and people all do different things wrong.... each is an individual case. Like Einsteins definition of insanity (doing the same thing over and over while expecting different results), what you do determines what results you get.

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joeb33050 posted this 06 September 2016

45 2.1 wrote: joeb33050 wrote: Got data? Unfortunately, everybody does things to suit his own preference. Most of those things do little to get you accuracy. I have a lifetime of data, just not what you want laid out in targets and information. It takes a few wrong things to defeat your efforts and people all do different things wrong.... each is an individual case. Like Einsteins definition of insanity (doing the same thing over and over while expecting different results), what you do determines what results you get.

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joeb33050 posted this 06 September 2016

OU812 wrote: Agood fitting and  round bullet is important. I like a bullet that seats longer into throat.

A gas check that is installed flat and square is important. Raised sprue cuts can hurt. The Lee sizers do well “IF" punch is faced off flat or slightly concave. NOE makes a precise push rod that has less burrs. Sizing nose first in the RCBS style sizers do well also if you use a good matching nose punch.

Most RCBS style lube machines that size and install gas check base first will size bullets “off center” causing non concentric rounds.

Lube base first using a RCBS sizer that is .001-.002 larger than sized bullet. The Over size die only lubes the bullet and does not size.

Check concentricity of loaded rounds and correct...especially bore riding rounds.

Good shooting technique

Fouled barrel is bad...OK.

Bases of these bullets were sanded square in drill press before seating gas check. Sanding removes flaws...I have shot my best groups with these.

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Scearcy posted this 06 September 2016

I have also started nose sizing in the past month.  I have an NOE set up that I like better and better as I use it more.  I am sizing the noses on 311299s.  .301 for the bolt actions and .300 for the single shot.  This allows me to seat the bullets out so that the first lube groove is just showing (3006).  No data yet Joe but there will be.

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joeb33050 posted this 06 September 2016

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 06 September 2016

good stuff joeb...

once again it just shows those dumb bullets can't read good ....

ken

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billwnr posted this 06 September 2016

maybe you need to flip the “will” and “will not” data around. You are pretty much guaranteeing mediocre results. How does that get a new person to want to shoot in the CBA matches and do better?

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45 2.1 posted this 07 September 2016

joeb33050 wrote It appears that Albert E. didn't say or write that.............. Doesn't matter who wrote it Joe.......... it's a truth worth repeating, although most people who do such things don't realize what's going on.

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joeb33050 posted this 07 September 2016

45 2.1 wrote: joeb33050 wrote It appears that Albert E. didn't say or write that.............. Doesn't matter who wrote it Joe.......... it's a truth worth repeating, although most people who do such things don't realize what's going on.

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Mike H posted this 07 September 2016

joeb33050 wrote: 45 2.1 wrote: joeb33050 wrote It appears that Albert E. didn't say or write that.............. Doesn't matter who wrote it Joe.......... it's a truth worth repeating, although most people who do such things don't realize what's going on. We're in the shooting world, where people believe that one group proves something, or one set of five groups proves something. A world where repeatedly shooting the same load starts to tell us something after many groups. Somewhere around 30 groups we can start to make statements with some semblence of truth. Repeating the same tests and examining the results is the only way to see the picture. It ain't a truth, it ain't worth repeating, it's a stupid, meaningless statement. Kind of like “Where there's smoke, there's fire.” There's lots of smoke without fire, much of it in the shooting world. I like that Joe,so true.

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45 2.1 posted this 07 September 2016

True???? Only an opinion from a few is more like it. You repeat those groups over a whole year or two, every week in the complete temperature range from very hot to very cold in all types of weather, THEN you'll see what goes on and it won't be what YOU think it is. I've done that with many calibers over a lot of years........

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John Alexander posted this 07 September 2016

.billwnr wrote: maybe you need to flip the “will” and “will not” data around. You are pretty much guaranteeing mediocre results. How does that get a new person to want to shoot in the CBA matches and do better?Bill, Could you elaborate a little on your second and third sentences.  I don't understand. John

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billwnr posted this 07 September 2016

John,   Let's just take one on the “will not” list.  Will not use wind flags.  Tell me how many at the upcoming weekend shoot do not use wind flags.   I'll make a guess and say everybody will be using windflags. Most will be weight segregating cases, uniforming and cleaning cases.  Almost all in the Heavy and Unlimited classes will shoot neck turned brass.

How does just banging away in a match without regard to conditions or without fitting the cases to the chamber work for a new shooter.  Or would he use his first performance as a baseline and then work on adding things from the “will not” list.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 07 September 2016

FWIW::

analyzing results of cast bullet shooting is like watching the finale of the 4th of july fireworks ::

there are so many flashes and bangs and smoke that later you can't recall exactly what happened . or why.


we can take combination A which really is a bad load/ chambering/etc. and optimize every aspect and make it better ( less worse ) and then record that recipe for developing the best combination .

now we go to combination B and find that the magic recipe for A makes things worse . wot thu ???

can't make ice cream the same way you make a good omelet ...

so keep all those list tools; some make ice cream and some make omelets ...


from the above lists of do and don't .... pick the tool for the job :: fix what is broke and don't break what is working .

ken

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joeb33050 posted this 08 September 2016

billwnr wrote: John,   Let's just take one on the “will not” list.  Will not use wind flags.  Tell me how many at the upcoming weekend shoot do not use wind flags.   I'll make a guess and say everybody will be using windflags. Most will be weight segregating cases, uniforming and cleaning cases.  Almost all in the Heavy and Unlimited classes will shoot neck turned brass.

How does just banging away in a match without regard to conditions or without fitting the cases to the chamber work for a new shooter.  Or would he use his first performance as a baseline and then work on adding things from the “will not” list.

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joeb33050 posted this 08 September 2016

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 08 September 2016

joeb:: i am impressed with the repeatability of your results ....a decent indicator of validity .

i also am impressed with your ability to shoot cast at 200 meters ... under 4 inches ... WITHOUT WIND FLAGS !!... even on ” calm ” ( no such thing ) days, i would expect wind drift of 2 to 8 inches .

congrats ...

ken

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billwnr posted this 08 September 2016

joeb33050 wrote: billwnr wrote: John,   Let's just take one on the “will not” list.  Will not use wind flags.  Tell me how many at the upcoming weekend shoot do not use wind flags.   I'll make a guess and say everybody will be using windflags. Most will be weight segregating cases, uniforming and cleaning cases.  Almost all in the Heavy and Unlimited classes will shoot neck turned brass.

How does just banging away in a match without regard to conditions or without fitting the cases to the chamber work for a new shooter.  Or would he use his first performance as a baseline and then work on adding things from the “will not” list.What we have here is a failure to communicate. I thought I was clear, but I guess not. I've shown a recipe here to get a rifle to shoot below 2", say 1.5” to 2". Now, how to get the averages to get .5” = 1/2” smaller. Say the rifle shoots 1.75” averages, how do we get it t shoot 1.25", or better, averages? Some steps will get us there, some steps-or combinations of those steps-won't. Setting up wind flags and learning to vary aiming point with wind, won't. Changing the powder, or the charge, frequently will.

This is FOR the beginner, to show him where to concentrate on his accuracy search. So he doesn't waste time weighing powder charges or bullets or agonizing over alloy composition or hardness. If he want's to put up wind flags, God bless him.

  Yep.... it was a failure to communicate.  I see where you are headed with this.  I assumed wrong.

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joeb33050 posted this 09 September 2016

Ken Campbell Iowa wrote: joeb:: i am impressed with the repeatability of your results ....a decent indicator of validity .

i also am impressed with your ability to shoot cast at 200 meters ... under 4 inches ... WITHOUT WIND FLAGS !!... even on ” calm ” ( no such thing ) days, i would expect wind drift of 2 to 8 inches .

congrats ...

ken

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 09 September 2016

twist is not the only factor in bullet stabilization .

we are pretty sure that our soft lead castings are not as accurate as mj .... because we can't keep them perfect by the time they exit the muzzle . fit? shape? god's will ?

maybe a 14 twist outperforms its predictions because it expels a better ( less distorted ) bullet ...than a less friendly 9 twist ?

a 14 twist might stabilize an un-molested but too long bullet ... where a 9 twist can't stabilize the shorter but bent bullet .

as usual, it is the combination ...


and remember the slower more gentle 14 twist tends to deliver less distorted bullets .... many think ...

ken

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GWarden posted this 11 September 2016

Something we may fail to mention is the ability of the man/woman behind the rifle and set up at the bench. I have seen different shooters with different abilities take the same rifle and it is amazing the results in group size. Also set up is crucial. This might make a good separate thread. I watch the results of certain CBA matches that are posted in the journal. Those that are many times at the top of the list are using the same bullets, powder etc as the rest of the shooters. Too often we think they have a rifle with better accuracy than the rest= wrong. Shooters abilities vary, and set up can make a difference in the results.You all have a great day.Bob

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joeb33050 posted this 11 September 2016

GWarden wrote: Something we may fail to mention is the ability of the man/woman behind the rifle and set up at the bench. I have seen different shooters with different abilities take the same rifle and it is amazing the results in group size. Also set up is crucial. This might make a good separate thread. I watch the results of certain CBA matches that are posted in the journal. Those that are many times at the top of the list are using the same bullets, powder etc as the rest of the shooters. Too often we think they have a rifle with better accuracy than the rest= wrong. Shooters abilities vary, and set up can make a difference in the results.You all have a great day.Bob

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GWarden posted this 11 September 2016

JoeI don't think we realize how important bench skills come into our shooting. I will try and put something together and post on this issue. One know factor among bench rest shooters is that a rifle is proven to shoot better in bench rest when the front rest is position just ahead of the action. I tried it, and darn if it didn't improve things. A combination of small things can and will add up to tighten up groups. Again,ability of the shooter needs to be given more credit than what we do. Was it Dr. Hudson; famed schuetzen shooter, that shot 200yd groups with BP and breech seating that were not beaten for many many years. Have a good day.Bob

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joeb33050 posted this 13 September 2016

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Scearcy posted this 13 September 2016

I think it is very difficult to separate poor bench technique from an poor results because of the rifle. I have spent close to 4,000 rounds over the last three years searching for accuracy in 3 different rifles. Here are a couple of conclusions of mine and let me note they are likely worth exactly what you are paying for them.

First 5 shot groups make it almost impossible to separate poor shooting from a poor barrel. Ten shot groups are better. I have finally settled on 3 ten shot groups overlaid using Excel and graphics. Some surprising patterns can emerge with a detailed enough picture.

Second certain group shapes will give us a fairly good indication of the underlying problem. Two groups within a group is one of my maladies. Another is the dreaded oval shaped group tipped at a 30 degree angle from vertical. these are both shooting problems. If your group center consistently moves between the 3 10 shot groups, there is likely a shooter problem. And so forth.

On the other hand vertical stringing is usually a load problem. A “loose” 30 shot string (relative to the shooters ability) is a load or rifle problem. A horizontal oval is often a wind problem, etc. Poor bench technique almost never results in a large but uniformly distributed 30 shot group.

These are only my observations about my own abilities, nothing more.

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Eutectic posted this 13 September 2016

First YOU must be able to shoot a rifle with known accuracy off the bench to its potential. It must be a 30 caliber, no cheating with 22's. Borrow one! Second get good new cases fire with a normal jacketed load, neck size the cases. Buy quality match grade jacketed bullets. Seat the bullets 0.010” off the lands. Load with a recommended powder just below maximum. Shoot at 100 yards on a no-wind day, 10 shot groups. A good production rifle should do an 1 1/2 inch. Anything over 2” means something is wrong with the rifle. There is a lot of variation in production rifles, there is nothing wrong with this, a 2 inch rifle will kill game by the truckload. If your rifle shoots close to an inch you have a very good one, this is luck.   A custom barrel (really a custom chamber) should shoot under an inch. Now you know the rifles potential. Clean out the jacketed fouling and try cast bullets. They are lots more fun than jacketed.  Read the previous posts they are good advice. Steve

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OU812 posted this 13 September 2016

Have you noticed that the shooters that seem to have it figured out do not post. Ed Krasny comes to mind. I know he shoots a big heavy rifle with big Krieger barrel. Maybe one day I will be in their league and ignore this forum.

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45 2.1 posted this 13 September 2016

OU812 wrote: Have you noticed that the shooters that seem to have it figured out do not post. On this forum you here opinions where one guy says something and somebody else says the direct opposite. The new guys have to discern where the truth really is. It gets really old trying to tell people what matters!!!!... and they give up doing so, after all they found out and you can also. Playing follow the leader only gets you so far. What is needed is someone who does know gives you guys the information, then you can haggle it to death. The absolute best way to learn is with a production rifle.

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joeb33050 posted this 14 September 2016

Eutectic wrote: First YOU must be able to shoot a rifle with known accuracy off the bench to its potential.

 

It must be a 30 caliber, no cheating with 22's. Borrow one! Second get good new cases fire with a normal jacketed load, neck size the cases. Buy quality match grade jacketed bullets. Seat the bullets 0.010” off the lands. Load with a recommended powder just below maximum. Shoot at 100 yards on a no-wind day, 10 shot groups. A good production rifle should do an 1 1/2 inch. Anything over 2” means something is wrong with the rifle. There is a lot of variation in production rifles, there is nothing wrong with this, a 2 inch rifle will kill game by the truckload. If your rifle shoots close to an inch you have a very good one, this is luck.   A custom barrel (really a custom chamber) should shoot under an inch. Now you know the rifles potential. Clean out the jacketed fouling and try cast bullets. They are lots more fun than jacketed.  Read the previous posts they are good advice. Steve

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45 2.1 posted this 14 September 2016

Temper, temper..........that won't get you anywhere, calm down and stop running in the same rut. You might have done testing, but it sure wasn't exhaustive or scientific. I'm sure several people here can make your rifle shoot a lot better than you've done. And it is rocket science when so many people can't do better than you've shown. It's not that hard to get under 1 MOA either using the right parameters (which have been in print for the last 100 years)!

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billwnr posted this 14 September 2016

This display of behavior is nothing new. Making a rifle shoot isn't hard as long as one listens to what the rifle wants and also knows how to shoot.

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John Alexander posted this 15 September 2016

45 2.1 wrote: I'm sure several people here can make your rifle shoot a lot better than you've done. And it is rocket science when so many people can't do better than you've shown. It's not that hard to get under 1 MOA either using the right parameters (which have been in print for the last 100 years)! With all due respect I would like to know where all these super shooters are hiding who find it easy to make a production rifle shoot averages under 1MOA with cast bullets. I have been at this for over fifty years in many parts of the country and have never run into even one of them.  I just came back from the CBA Nationals where 14 experienced shooters traveled up to 2,000 miles to do their best shooting in production rifle classes. None of them could keep their aggregates of four 5-shot groups under 1MOA and 12 of them were shooting 30 caliber rifles that are acknowledged to be easier to tame than 22s.  These are folks who have devoted years to reading all the advice available and working to perfect their loading and shooting abilities. Strange that none of them find it easy to get under 1MOA.  Of course they have all shot tiny groups from time to time but any honest shooter knows that these occasional small groups mean nothing if you shoot long enough with any rifle you will get one.

The internet is filled with keyboard shooters shooting cast bullets under 1MOA and sitting back and saying how easy it is if you just know how.  When challenged they even sometimes promise to show up at matches -- but never appear.  I have begun to think they are in the same category as Big Foot and Nessie, often heard about but never seen.

John

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OU812 posted this 15 September 2016

John Alexander wrote:  I just came back from the CBA Nationals where 14 experienced shooters traveled up to 2,000 miles to do their best shooting in production rifle classes. None of them could keep their aggregates of four 5-shot groups under 1MOA and 12 of them were shooting 30 caliber rifles that are acknowledged to be easier to tame than 22s.

Sounds like I have a good chance of winning with my 223 Remington

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45 2.1 posted this 15 September 2016

John Alexander wrote: The internet is filled with keyboard shooters shooting cast bullets under 1MOA and sitting back and saying how easy it is if you just know how.  When challenged they even sometimes promise to show up at matches -- but never appear.  I have begun to think they are in the same category as Big Foot and Nessie, often heard about but never seen.

John

This is what has turned off the people I talk and shoot with! After reading things like this; they, to a man, ask me why I try to deal with people who do such things. I've shown these folks what I've done and they show me. I know several people who have seen these things, from me and others, and still won't believe after seeing it done right in front of them. Talk about stubborn!!!!!!! I'm not going to travel to try to prove anything to you or anyone else. If you want to actually see things like this, you will probably have to travel in different circles.

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John Alexander posted this 15 September 2016

      OU812,

  Yes, I think you would be competitive with your 223.  It would be great to see another shooter competing with the 30 caliber shooters with a 22.  I think it would be good for the sport to have more variety.  A great bunch of shooters have regular matches at the Charlotte Rifle & Pistol Club. It is about 230 miles from you but I think you would enjoy the interaction with other shooters. If you are interested I could give you contact information.

Another possibility would be to compete in our postal matches.  It costs $4 or $5 for a set of targets to be shot on your home range on the honor system and if you win you get your money back.  Give it a try.   John

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RicinYakima posted this 16 September 2016

John, Thank you for a dose of reality. If you can shoot one MOA in shoulder to shoulder matches, you can be a winner. I don't see very many stepping up to the line. Best wishes, Ric

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GWarden posted this 19 November 2016

Get and read “Cast Bullets” by E.H.Harrison (NRA publication). Article on Orientation and Selection: Two keys to Accuracy p. 140-42 by Frank Marshall. I have kept records and orientation does help. Don't ever say “no” to things we hear from others. Lots of assumptions and bad info given that are taken as gospel.BobIowa

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