Hunter rifle class question

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  • Last Post 25 February 2017
Premod70 posted this 03 October 2016

There was supposed to be some discussion about changing the rules on scope power restrictions for the hunter class rules at this years directors meeting. Anybody know if the discussion led to any changes?

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John Alexander posted this 03 October 2016

The proposal to limit the scope power to 9x was discussed by the Board but the vote rejected the proposal. One factor in the consideration against the proposal was that limiting scope power would require competitors to buy and manage a spotting scope in order to see bullet holes. Another  was the argument that if a shooter wanted to use a low power scope he would be at little or no disadvantage since Score JB bench resters routinely shoot high, and even perfect, scores on a much smaller target with 6X scopes.   Supporting that argument is the fact that Dan Hudson used a 6X scope in the CBA nationals last month to come in second in Hunting Rifle class against a tough field using high power scopes. And, on average, HR shooters fired 10% smaller group aggregates than the shooters in Production Class who used 12 pound varmint rifles as well as high power target scopes.  Dan claims that the low power scope gave him an advantage by being able to watch his wind flags through the wider field of the 6X scope while the shooters with high power scopes had to look outside the scope to see wind flags. Dan's performance should cast doubt on the argument that a shooter can't compete in HR class with the 9x scope already on his deer rifle. Dan's rifle is a low end light weight Savage in 7-08. He won the CBA national championship in HR class with the same rifle in 2015. The national championship in HR has also recently been won twice with a modest priced rifle weighing 6 pounds. The actual equipment used to often win all the marbles in HR class shows that you don't need special equipment to be competitive. I would urge any shooter with a good shooting CB load in his deer/bear rifle who would like to try competition to give it a try. John

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RicinYakima posted this 03 October 2016

And with all of the military rifles made into sporters with 3X9 scopes, I am surprised more shooters aren't using them. IMHO, Ric

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Premod70 posted this 03 October 2016

Thanks for the info fellows, I'm OK with the rules whichever way they may go, i didn't want to start next year with the wrong setup. I tell friends with low power scopes that wish to give it a try they can borrow my spotting scope until they start turning in better scores than me then the rental fees go up.

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RicinYakima posted this 04 October 2016

LOL Premod70! Spotting scopes for most ranges with back light is only about 24 to 26 power. There are lots of inexpensive spotting scopes that will work with solid support and practice. I bought a $1500 scope to shoot at Puyallup, WA, Paul Bunyan Range because the light is so bad at 200 yards. You don't need that most places! Ric

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Premod70 posted this 04 October 2016

Sorry for the confusion Ric, I was referring to those that show up with a low powered rifle scope and no spotting scope. As for expensive spotting scopes I have always erred on the side of the best you can buy is the best way in the long run. As I age I find the money was well spent when I can find bullets the others are having a hard time seeing and with my tired old eyes that is a amazing feat. It must be a curse in my neighborhood as every range that I shoot at has a southern exposure and the resultant shadows. Sometimes I think half of the fun is finding the bullet strike! If I had to choose between the two types of rifle scope usage I would go with the low powered thinking only to help bring in more new shooters. My reasoning is a novice will consider himself more equal and hopefully keep their interest to return for more shooting. One look at 36 power scope and most will throw their hands up and leave. Another plus is most new shooters will need a spotter which will help in establishing a bond with a more experienced shooter. As you know it is very intimidating sport and the trick is to be involved with the novice from the get-go. Just a thought.

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RicinYakima posted this 04 October 2016

My perception is that we are going through a period of few new benchrest shooters. Most shooters my age started in the early '90's because they were too old (and in my case fat) for NRA HI-Power, so we started shooting 50 yard 22LR. When that became a $10 a box and $1000 rifle game, we started shooting CBA in Military or Production. I don't see many hunters very concerned about precision shooting, more long range deer sniping. FWIW, Ric

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John Alexander posted this 05 October 2016

I think Ric is right that most hunters are not going to be attracted into competition no matter how little it costs to get started. Nothing wrong with that. Different strokes for different folks.  That is not to say that none will or that no other shooters will come our way.  Surprisingly the ones that show up are sometimes carrying a $3,000 rifle with a Hart barrel.  We get fugitives from JB bencherest as well as some hard core gun loonies of other stripes.   That said it would be nice if we could attract more hunters (there are so many of them to draw from) so we ought to offer them something for the rifles they have -- thus Hunting Rifle. We might get more varmint hunters if we didn't tell them they have to have a 30 caliber to play. Only half of the HR class nationals have been won by 30s or larger.

One of the things that would help would be to do more of the things Premod70 has mentioned to make new shooters feel welcome.

We also shouldn't fall prey to the “oh my God we are dying off” lament.  I have been hearing that since 1979 but we are still here. We aren't exactly a growth industry, although our military rifle branch has been. But we are holding our own both in membership numbers and overall numbers of competitors.  Some geographical areas have dwindled and others are thriving.

John

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RicinYakima posted this 05 October 2016

I agree John. We need to work on techniques to make 6 MM's and 22's more competitive. You and a few others seem to have the “knack” to make them shoot well. There just doesn't seem to a standard process to make them shoot 1 1/4 MOA as a base.

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BudHyett posted this 05 October 2016

To introduce new shooters to competition, I often emphasize range estimation and gauging wind. These are the two factors new hunter are now relying on electronic gadgets to perform the duty and waste time that could be used for aiming and firing.   I emphasize:<>The wind judgment and range estimation becomes more automatic with competition, quicker estimating and giving more time in the field to aim. <>Familiarity with the rifle from repeated usage means a more automatic take-up and trigger squeeze. <*>When they talk of cost, I mention, handloading, cast bullets and CBA matches.Working with them at the range, I often bring cast bullet loads for trial. The recoil is strong enough to work on consistent shouldering technique and trigger control. Then I explain the added shooting cost is lower with cast bullets and allows more practice. 

this approach works about one in twenty-five times, often the new shooter will try some other form of competition, usually high-power.  

Farm boy from Western Illinois, living in the Magical Pacific Northwest

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John Alexander posted this 05 October 2016

Ric, The knack is the same as for the 30s.  Good bullet design with a high enough BC to compete at 200 yards.  A good fit to the throat so the bullet gets started straight.  There aren't many good bullet designs and the usual 14” twist in most 22 limit them to short blunt bullets with the BC of a brick. There is a disadvantage in wind drift even for a scale model of say a 311299 but that is somewhat offset by less movement of rifle and battering of shooter. Tradeoffs tradeoffs.  

John

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RicinYakima posted this 06 October 2016

I hear you John, but the varmint guys at my range don't want to shoot anything less than 3200 f/s. It seems they would rather watch “footsball” all fall and winter than shoot. There is better response from old guys that can't hunt anymore, they seem more responsive.

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John Alexander posted this 06 October 2016

You are right Ric. First you have to find someone that has the defective gene that causes they to want to pour shiny lead into little holes. It helps if they have had some success with CBs and are curious about how well they might do compared to others.  Then you have a good candidate. John

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 06 October 2016

competition ... in my other life, we offered a chance to compete with actual ( tho small ) racing cars .... compare nascar popularity with our minute group of ( toy car ) nascar class racers .

i always thought it was because we didn't allow beer at the track .

ok, really because most folks don't want their name on a top to bottom list of successful people . well, only at the top ... and that is one person, not a crowd .

our most attended races were ones that everybody won ... more of a picnic and family get-together .

maybe we need more bunny shoots ???

i think johna has something with that bent gene observation ...


in my location there are over 200 shooters ... we have a state range 6 miles from my house ...about 7 people are nra members ..there are.... 1 cba members ( me ) .... good news... some hope :: we have a high school trap club and a local area college trap club . but then that is boring iowa ...

ken

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Scearcy posted this 20 February 2017

John and Ric, et al

Its a rainy day here so I end up talking about shooting rather than actually shooting. I just wanted to observe that  we have fairly active threads regarding the 223 (OU812 bullet bumping), 22-250 (Joe B), and 243 (yours truly).  Others have helped keep these threads interesting and contributed much.  This is good. However, we need more shooters submitting more targets.

Where are the AR, 6 BR, 6X47 Lapua, any 6.5 cal, any 25cal (I think there is a 25-06 thread which might get legs), etc? I know we have at least one  7MM-08 doing well at the Nationals, anyone?

It seems very likely that we have members experimenting. Can we get them to share? More calibers = more interest IMO.

This isn't a rant but wouldn't it be interesting to have more calibers and more targets posted.

Jim

 

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John Alexander posted this 22 February 2017

Jim,

I agree completely.  I think you are absolutely right. If we could ever get up to that critical mass of people contributing I think things would take off and we would all benefit.  How to do it is the question.  Over the years I have repeatedly urged the board members to pose a question on the forum or answer one to get things rolling. At least ten of the 18 have never to my knowledge made one post.  For a couple or three years I wrote letters to the class winners at the nationals asking them to tell how they did it on the forum or in TFS.  You are the only one who produced an article and an excellent one.

I would certainly welcome any suggestion for stirring up interest.  Or any suggestions about what we are doing wrong to turn off potential contributors.

John

 

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RicinYakima posted this 22 February 2017

Jim, I'm sorry but I have little interest in shooting other than military rifles for matches. While I did shot Hunter Rifle class the Nationals in Raton, NM, I was vacationing in the area and I could shoot one of my Springfield 03's that was sporterized. I have written an article back in 2007 of how I loaded ammo for the Military Nationals. Since I don't own any commercial bolt guns made within the last 80 years,  it will not be me.

I have no doubt that most any commercial cartridge can be made to shoot cast bullets, it is just that not that many want to lead the charge. They are followers, so you need a leader. If I had to pick a cartridge, it would be the .338 Federal in a Savage rifle with a second of .375 Ruger if you could fine a useable Ruger barrel on a factory rifle.

 

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David Reiss CBA Membership Director posted this 22 February 2017

Jim, et all

As the current membership director and webmaster, I am doing all I can to encourage participation on the forum and contributions to the FS. Every new user that joins the forum gets a PM from me encouraging them to join the CBA. Every new CBA member gets a welcome email encouraging them to register & use the forum. If I speak to new members by phone or email them, I tell them all about the FS and again, encourage them to write articles. We have just sent out an email to expired CBA members and in response, we have 27 that have re-joined over the past few weeks, many have also registered on the forum. There is an article in the upcoming FS about the new website & forum. Soon will be an email sent to all members promoting the website & forum. There are a couple promotions in the works to gain membership. Last other recent promotions, such as a membership listing on eBay in the “molds” category and posting on other cast bullet forums have garnered over 24 new members over the past few months. 

We lose and gain about 3% of the membership every two months, however at the current time, that % is coming down and we are gaining a few more members than we are losing each cycle. It is a constant battle though. As the membership grows, so will the participation on the forum & FS. 

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys, Good Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .

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RicinYakima posted this 22 February 2017

 But do you rent pigs? I have some used racing forms to trade.

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David Reiss CBA Membership Director posted this 23 February 2017

 But do you rent pigs? I have some used racing forms to trade.

Yes Ric, I have 19 fine specimens, all pro-gun & NRA members! I however to not accept rat-race forms.

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys, Good Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .

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shootcast posted this 25 February 2017

Getting new shooters is difficult. It has been said they just won't shoot regardless. I know there is a lot of truth in that statement. I have tried to interest many people in shooting with me. Offered them any rifle I own. Loaded ammo ready to shoot. Just pay the ten dollar match fee. Seldom do I get any takers. How ever I feel more people get interested in casting and shooting through basic hunting rifles. They already own these so there is no investment. This is were I believe the interest starts. Not many are willing to have a $3000 rig built to see if they going to like this. Yes they could buy a speacialty hunting or production rifle that has proven to be competitive. But again this means buying another rifle and scope. Not to mention a rest and rear bag. I admit you can do Ok with just sand bags. But if everyone thought you would be top gun that way then no one would buy a rest. The IBS boys do very well with 6 power scopes , that is true. But they don't shoot basic hunting rifles and they don't shoot basic hunting scopes. There is a BIG difference. I agree that we the CBA scare off more potential shooters before they even start. You have to really want to do this . But for those just starting we need to accommodate them and there budget. Our present hunting class doesn't reflect this.  How many shooters show up at a match with lever/pump/auto rifles. You know the kind of rifles that people carry into the woods to hunt with. Ever bump into anyone hunting with a 36 power scope? We intimidate new comers. They may come once or twice but they don't come back.  We need to look at our present classes and either add new ones or adjust the ones we have. The rifles a lot of people want to shoot are not competitive in the class they have to shoot. Few of these people ever come back. I think there are ways to get shooters but we need to make the playing field a little more fair.

 

 

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RicinYakima posted this 25 February 2017

I know we don't want to hear this but: Most “shooters” are so bad they will not shoot at paper that records their shots. They simply can't shoot and are embarrassed. I've have tried the “come out and we will teach you how to shoot off a rest". God and John Wayne blessed me and I know how to shoot. OK.

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muley posted this 25 February 2017

A person needs the “DESIRE",” INTEREST", to cast bullets, size, etc. . and as Ric sez, some people couldn"t hit a target with a shotgun. I believe the human trait that cannot accept failure chases some people away.

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