TFS #244 & The Unified Cast Bullet Theory

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  • Last Post 01 December 2016
mtngun posted this 27 November 2016

I enjoyed John Alexander's attempt to yield a Unified Cast Bullet Theory from the results of the 2016 Nationals and would like to add to that.

I jotted down every performance where the 10 shot agg at 100 yards was 1.100” or better, and I'll arbitrarily call those folks “serious competitors."   The others may be serious competitors, too, but for now I just want to look at this year's better aggs.    From this I observe three things:

1) Serious competitors use a 30 BR.   Exception being Paul Pollard's 6PPC, which does great at 100 yards but gets blown around at 200 yards.  

2) Remember when the standard twist for 30 caliber was 10"?     Now the twist of serious competitors averages 12.3".  :cool:   

3) Serious competitors spin their bullets an average of 118,000 rpm.   Other than Nicewanner's plain base load, all serious competitors operate within a narrow range of 111,000 - 137,000 rpm.

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mtngun posted this 27 November 2016

Here's some speculative armchair theory from someone who hasn't competed for decades, so take it for what it's worth:

Let's assume that serious competitors must operate at 118,000 rpm because accuracy degrades above that point.   Whether or not you buy the RPM threshold theory, the fact is that serious competitors do operate at 118,000 rpm. 

Let's also assume that serious competitors shoot a 30BR and use linotype alloy, because in fact almost all serious competitors shoot a 30BR and use linotype alloy. :D

Let's also assume that serious competitors operate with a Miller stability factor of 1.3.   That's not necessarily the case in the CBA, but it's a widely accepted rule of thumb in short range jacketed benchrest.

Let's then look at the twist, bullet weight, and velocity combinations that will fulfill the 118,000 rpm / 30BR / lino / SF=1.3 criteria.

To generate the stability factor results, I had to assume a certain type of spitzer nose and a certain type of bullet design -- in reality different noses and different bullet designs would have different lengths and thus different stability results.

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onondaga posted this 27 November 2016

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=608>mtngun

Nice number crunching and good theory. I still don't like linotype!!!! But, it shoots well if you give it what it needs like the match winners do.

I believe part of your theories support my old one that the best accuracy comes at or very near the highest ballistic efficiency.

Comparing the ballistic efficiency of the 1MOA match loads to casual match shooters, hunters and hobbyists and newbies shows a very stark difference in efficiency.

Gary

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mtngun posted this 27 November 2016

Thanks, Gary. :)

I may have to put my money where my mouth is by building a CBA rifle and driving up to Spokane to compete, but like all of my projects that will take me quite a while.

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OU812 posted this 28 November 2016

mtngun wrote: Thanks, Gary. :)

 , but like all of my projects that will take me quite a while.

You could start off your project by first building a good sturdy concrete shooting bench. I think you once said you do most shooting on a flimsy wood table from your shop. 

http://www.rifleshootermag.com/how-to/build-ultimate-shooting-range-bench/>http://www.rifleshootermag.com/how-to/build-ultimate-shooting-range-bench/

My range has good tables and not so good tables. All appear sturdy, but the 3/4 sheet of ply wood that covers the tops needs more screws so that it will not bow and flex.

...

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frnkeore posted this 28 November 2016

Here is some food for thought:

10 of 15, ten shot, CBA target class (Hvy,UNR & UNP) records are held by Oregonian shooters. The majority of thoughs shooters use the Egan MX4 30 ARD bullet. It's a 1.25 long, 215 gr bullet. Most all of them use either a 11 or 12 twist barrel. The stability factors run ~2.0 at ~2000 fps. There RPM runs ~131,000 and all use Lino.

If you can make it to VC, WA, Springfield or Roseburg, OR, you'll find the most competitive shooters on this side of the country.

This seems to be the bullet to beat! Frank

mtngun posted this 30 November 2016

You could start off your project by first building a good sturdy concrete shooting bench. I think you once said you do most shooting on a flimsy wood table from your shop.

Indeed!   I hope to make improvements to my existing 100 yard bench (the wooden bench itself is sturdy enough but the shooting shack it sits in is the weak link, having only 2x4 pine floor joists :shock: ) and I plan to build a 200 yard range.  The 200 yard range will definitely have a sturdy bench though I have not decided whether to build with concrete or wood.  Depends on the exact location and whether I decide to make it portable (on a trailer).   Anyway I had hoped to get those things done this year but it didn't happen.   I'll try again next year.

In the meantime, my flimsy shooting shack is annoying, but I don't feel it is limiting my accuracy with free recoil style shooting.  It's just that I have to sit still and not touch the bench while shooting.   It sounds lame, but one adapts. :D

The majority of thoughs shooters use the Egan MX4 30 ARD bullet. It's a 1.25 long, 215 gr bullet. Most all of them use either a 11 or 12 twist barrel. The stability factors run ~2.0 at ~2000 fps. There RPM runs ~131,000 and all use Lino. The prevailing philosophy in CBA competition seems to be that the key is bucking the wind at 200 yards and certainly the long heavy 30 caliber bullets are good at that.   A 50 BMG would buck wind better still but recoil would impair the shooter.   I'm guessing 30 caliber prevails due to a combination of tradition and human recoil limitations?  

Even if you accept the long heavy wind bucking school of thought, a 14” twist will stabilize the Eagan bullet with a stability factor of 1.3 and should deliver better accuracy at a given velocity, or alternatively allow more velocity (and less wind drift) at a given accuracy, all other things being equal, though as with my lube shootout the differences in accuracy may be measured in hundredths.   Yet improvement by hundredths is a necessary part of any benchrest game.

Has any CBA member done a side by side comparison test of different twists, using barrels from the same maker chambered with the same reamer and shot with the same load from the same rifle?     If not, how do they arrive at the 11” and 12” twists?   Greenhill?    Following the crowd?

I notice that the prevailing philosophy in jacketed benchrest (out to 300 yards) is that aggs and low recoil are more important than wind drift, that you can compensate for wind (if you are Tony Boyer), but you can't compensate for agg, so they shoot slow twists (requiring light bullets) to optimize aggs.  

Who is right?  Or are they both right, given the peculiar limitations of cast bullets?

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mtngun posted this 30 November 2016

Update:   it was pointed out to me that Larry Rickersten shoots a setup nearly identical to the one I suggested might be “most likely to succeed, with a 187 gr. bullet from a 14” twist at 2250 fps.   This year he missed my arbitrary 1.100” cut-off by 0.059” but I'm told he has done better in previous years?   

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frnkeore posted this 30 November 2016

"how do they arrive at the 11” and 12” twists? Greenhill? Following the crowd?”

A 12 twist has been more or less the standard twist for CB target shooting for more than 30 years. CB, competitive shooters have strayed, mostly from 14 to 10 twist. The HV, slower twist, have had some success but, that trend, doesn't seem to last very long. There are no standing records for the slower twists. The records that have more resently set, are with the median twist rates.

Literally thousands of bullets have been tried in this sport, could there be a possibility that the length of the bullet or the design (or both), has maximized around that median twist rate?

It's been my experiance that most CB shooters, gravitate their equipment towards what is winning matches, especially barrel makers and twist rates and not trying unknown perimeters. Progress is slow that way but, sure or at least more sure with less failure.

I'm not that type and rarely shoot what anyone else does.

Frank

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OU812 posted this 30 November 2016

Lilja barrels wrote: The more a bullet is out of balance, the more a slower twist helps...up until it (cast bullet) becomes unstable.

http://riflebarrels.com/a-look-at-bullet-imbalance-and-twist/>http://riflebarrels.com/a-look-at-bullet-imbalance-and-twist/

...

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mtngun posted this 30 November 2016

"A 12 twist has been more or less the standard twist for CB target shooting for more than 30 years. CB, competitive shooters have strayed, mostly from 14 to 10 twist. The HV, slower twist, have had some success but, that trend, doesn't seem to last very long. There are no standing records for the slower twists. The records that have more resently set, are with the median twist rates." OK, but suppose I'm an alien from another planet visiting earth and my spaceship happens to land at a shooting range.   One shooter is shooting 200 gr. cast in a 12” twist and he tells me that is because it bucks the wind better.  The earthling at the next bench is shooting http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2010/07/triumph-in-texas-jackie-schmidt-shoots-0-1118-5-target-agg-at-100-yards-with-30-br-best-in-history/>112 gr. jacketed in an 18” twist and he tells me that is because the slow twist is more accurate and the light recoil reduces human error.   I am confused, why isn't the jacketed earthling using 200 grainers in a 12” twist so he can buck the wind better?    Why isn't the cast earthling using 112 gr. in an 18” twist so he can enjoy better accuracy and less recoil?  

Agree that competition does serve to cut through the B.S. and determine what really works but only if there is enough competition.   At the 2016 Nationals only 11 shooters agged better than 1.100".     That is not a lot of competition.  :(  

OU812, that is an excellent article that I had not seen before, thank you for sharing!    It is interesting that Colonel Harrison was aware of the affect of twist on accuracy yet as far as I know the Colonel never published experiments with different twist and cast bullets?   Perhaps he felt it was a small factor compared to all the other problems cast bullets face?

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frnkeore posted this 30 November 2016

OK, but suppose I'm an alien from another planet visiting earth and my spaceship happens to land at a shooting range.   One shooter is shooting 200 gr. cast in a 12” twist and he tells me that is because it bucks the wind better.  The earthling at the next bench is shooting http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2010/07/triumph-in-texas-jackie-schmidt-shoots-0-1118-5-target-agg-at-100-yards-with-30-br-best-in-history/>112 gr. jacketed in an 18” twist and he tells me that is because the slow twist is more accurate and the light recoil reduces human error.   I am confused, why isn't the jacketed earthling using 200 grainers in a 12” twist so he can buck the wind better?    Why isn't the cast earthling using 112 gr. in an 18” twist so he can enjoy better accuracy and less recoil?  Bucking the wind the wind is called BC and it comes in many ways but, is much harder to get with light for caliber bullets. Accuracy in a vaccum would equalize most combinations and here is where those space guy's would have the upper hand against any of us. Recoil can also be reduced by lowering velocity and you also get a big advantage in lowering the rpm of the bullet at lower velocity with slower twists. Frank

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45 2.1 posted this 30 November 2016

Do any of you think what you're doing is holding back further progress? Examine the concept that you are shooting bench rest rifles and only getting 1.10” groups or greater at 100 yards. Does that make sense to you? I've read the “Fouling Shot” for over 30 years and have seen some excellent experimentation. I would really like to see it again, but some things need to change.

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mtngun posted this 01 December 2016

Sorry to pick on you Frnkeore, I was just using your comments as an excuse to think out loud about what sort of things limit the performance of cast bullets.

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Larry Gibson posted this 01 December 2016

Here's the results of four 10 shot practice strings I shot yesterday.  The rifle falls in the Hvy R class but is not really a bench rest rifle, I'm just making do with it.  It is a 30x60 XCB with a 16” twist Broughton barrel 31” long.  The action is a VZ24 M98 Mauser.  The barreling and chambering were done by MBT  (goodsteel). Trigger is a Timney set at 18 ounces.  It has a sporter stock with a MBT BR adapter.  The scope is an older B&L Elite 4000 6.5x24.    Bullet used is cast from a 4 cavity aluminum NOE mould of #2 alloy.  Bullets are WQ'd out of the mould.  BHN runs 20 - 22.  Hornady GCs are seated with the Lyman GC seater on a Lyman 450 in a .311 H&!.  The .315 as dropped bullets are then lubed in the 450 with the .311 H&I and then sized .310 in a Lee honed push through sizer. Lube is White Label 2500+.  I visually cull and weight sort the bullets. The keepers of this cast lot weighed 158.4 - 158.7.  I will use the 158.6 and 158.7s in matches and am using the 158.4 and 158.5s for practice.  I used 158.4s yesterday.  The bullets fully dressed run 163.6 - 164 gr.   Cases are formed from new W-W 30-06 and are fully match prepped.  Match loads with the XCB bullet are concentric from .000 to not larger than .002.  The fire formed cases are neck sized with either a Redding bushing die or most recently with a modified Lee 30-06 Target Loader.  A .31 Lyman M die is use to expand and bell the case mouths.  Necks give .002 neck tension.    Powder is H4831SC with thrown Charges (Lyman 55).  Primers are WLRs.  The XCB are seated in a Bonanza Forster seating die.  Press use is a Forster COAX.  Velocity runs 2370 fps.   Was 45 degrees when I arrived at the range.  No wind initially but a 4-6 mph wind starts during the 3rd string.  It was coming over the berm and down out of 7 - 8 o'clock.  I did not make any sight adjustment or hold off as I wanted to see the winds effect.  The target was on the left side of the range not far from the berm and the wind (as seen on target 3 and 4) pushed the bullets slightly right and down.    Here are the targets.   Agg score for 1 & 2 is 191 Agg score for 3 & 4 is 188 Average MOA for all 4 groups is .904 Average group size for all 4 groups is 1.809 Judging by the 2015 National HvyR scores it was not a bad day. LMG      

Concealment is not cover.........

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mtngun posted this 01 December 2016

Thanks for the target and the load data, LMG. :)

You didn't specify the range but I'm guessing 200 yards?

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 01 December 2016

daaaaannngg

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Larry Gibson posted this 01 December 2016

mtngun wrote: Thanks for the target and the load data, LMG. :)

You didn't specify the range but I'm guessing 200 yards? Yes it was 200 yards, my bad for the omission.   I like to practice at 200 because  if I'm doing well there I'll most often do well at 100.   I've found out the hard way doing well at 100 many times does not equate to doing well at 200 yards. LMG 

Concealment is not cover.........

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RicinYakima posted this 01 December 2016

LMG, Good shooting. Ric

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