Match Grade Accuracy, Velocity and the Bullet

  • 1.6K Views
  • Last Post 03 April 2017
frnkeore posted this 29 November 2016

I would like to ask those that shoot in the target rifle classes (HVY, UNR & UNP) of CBA matches, what do you think is the thing that effects the accuracy, at the target the most, at 200 yards? And the same question of those that shoot in the lower velocity classes like Production, Hunter and Milsurp. Frank

Attached Files

Order By: Standard | Newest | Votes
45 2.1 posted this 29 November 2016

I don't shoot in any CBA competition anymore, but when I did, the environment (sun, varying shadows, mirage, wind and it's direction, temperature etc.) caused the most problems.

Attached Files

RicinYakima posted this 29 November 2016

I can only speak for the Military classes I shoot: firstly environmental factors of light intensity, cloud cover, wind speed and direction; second is ability to see the iron sights, especially issue sights. Then it is shooting technique, as our bullet velocity is low with long barrel times.

Attached Files

Larry Gibson posted this 29 November 2016

<user=50>RicinYakima wrote: I can only speak for the Military classes I shoot: firstly environmental factors of light intensity, cloud cover, wind speed and direction; second is ability to see the iron sights, especially issue sights. Then it is shooting technique, as our bullet velocity is low with long barrel times. I shoot military (scoped) and Heavy Rifle. 

 

With the Military rifle (I shoot a Sako built Finn M39 7.62x54R with a Weaver T6 scope).  In Heavy Rifle I have used 2 rifles; a M70 .308W target (factory rifle with a Leupold 6.5x20 scope) and a 30x60 XCB built on a VZ24 Mauser with a 31” Broughton barrel.  It has a B&L 6x24 target scope with 1/8 moa adjustments on it.   As to accuracy at 200 yards the environmental factors Ric mentions are the primary concerns especially the wind conditions.  Consistent bench position is the next concern in both classes, particularly in Heavy Rifle class.  Since you move from target to target after as few as just one shot I find repositioning the rifle on the front rest and rear bag to be a concern.  Small changes in positioning the rifle, especially if just the rear bag is used to make the adjustment, can cause small shifts in the center of the group/zero on target.  May not seem like much but the CBA target is a very tough target and subtle shifts can move you right out of the 10 ring or worse.  It's not that much of a concern with the military rifle as the target used for that is the NRA 600/200 with the 10 ring being 2 moa with 30 caliber bullets and 10 shots are shot on the same target consecutively without a change of position.    As to the precision on target at 200 yards the cast quality of the bullet and consistent internal ballistics are the major concern.  Using a correct alloy, correct casting, culling for any visual defect and weight sorting prove beneficial to me.  Proper loading technique, case prep and bullet prep are very important also.    Whichever either class I shoot in, good precision (group size) can be had with a very poor score (accuracy).  The trick is to have excellent precision (group) over the center of either target (accuracy).  Much easier said than done.    LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • Maven
OU812 posted this 30 November 2016

Earths rotation. I think all ranges should face east to west or west to east. Just kidding.

If me, my rifle and load was capable of shooting 1/2 groups consistently in perfect weather. I would say the weather has the greatest effect.

Edit: I have never shot in competition, but I bet you can learn lots from those guys. What is your secret Frank?

BTW I have shot my best groups on calm misty overcast days? Far from nice pretty sunny weather.

...

Attached Files

R. Dupraz posted this 30 November 2016

Without a doubt,

 Marksmanship skill and consistant bench technique!

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • David R.
muley posted this 30 November 2016

I agree with R. Dupraz, with the addition of a rifle and bullet combination that has the capability to shoot small groups. some rifles will not shoot, no matter how u caress them.

Attached Files

frnkeore posted this 30 November 2016

I must applozie for my tardiness of not getting back to this before now. My wife has had (not resent) a stroke and I spend most of my time at the rehab and I'm not very good at typing with my “smart” phone. What I'm trying to bring to light here, is the bullets roll in producing accuracy.

All things being equal at the bench, after leaving the muzzle, it's the bullets roll to do it's best to make only one hole. It's the shooters judgement and responsibility to aim the shot to compensate for what ever conditions may lie between the muzzle and target and this is where the wheat is separated from the chaff on the scoreboard in most cases.

I'm sure that all of us shooters have either over or under compensated for conditions for a shot and here is where I want to make my point. The ballistic coefficient of a bullet (wind bucking ability) can help minimize compensation, and there for minimize over or under compensation. In many cases by quite a lot. Also, it will minimize outliners if, your not seeing a condition, to hold off for.

For about 100 years, in single shot competition, it was said that only flat nosed bullet could produce accuracy but, starting in the 1980's, spitizers arrived and in the hands of the better shooters, they started winning matches and now, almost all match winners use a spitzer bullet. It's my contention, that the dramatic increase in scores since about 2000, is, in part a refection of the increased use of spitzer bullets. Better barrels and faster twist rates, to stabilize the longer bullets, have also played thier part. I know us CB shooters are resistant to change and, let's face it, we're cheap, too, or we would be shooting jacketed bullets into one small hole. We can, in some cases, buy a bullet mold for the price of 250 jacketed bullets. So, whats not to love about that? What I'm going to show you, is the calulated BC of different bullets and how that you can get less wind drift at slower velocity if you use a higher BC bullet. Calulated and real BC's can be different but, the trend will alway be the same. i. e. A bullet design with a higher calulated BC design will in the real world produce a higher BC at the target than design with a lower calulated BC. If that makes since. ALL bullets are made up of dimensions that produce thier shape. BC is real and it will do want it says it will in getting to the target, that being reduced wind drift. BC is a product of the differential of the vel at the muzzle and at the traget.

If a bullet leaves the muzzle at 2000 fps and arrives at the target at 1500 fps, it will have a lower BC that that same bullet leaving the muzzle at 2000 and arriving at the target at 1600 fps. BC can be increased by adding weight to the bullet or changing the nose shape to a longer ogive or both, together. We will start with the accurate and popular MX4 30 ARD. it has a calulated BC of .270, drift is 10 mph wind @ 90 deg to the bullet travel for both bullets. Started at 2000 fps it arrives at 100 @ 1725 fps, with 2.43 of drift and @ 200 it's going 1485 fps with 8.82 of drift.  Next is a popular Paul Jones mold of 32 caliber with a BC of .42 Started a 1500 fps, it arrives at 100 @ 1363 fps with 2.14 of drift and @ 200 it's going 1247 with 7.29 of drift. A drawing of the MX4 30 ARD:

frnkeore posted this 30 November 2016

The PJ mold of larger caliber but, almost the same weight SD is less with it. .319 30 cal, .302 for the 32 cal. Regarding the calulated Vs the real BC, I've done testing with Barry Darr's M43, that measures the BC of bullets. What I have found in that testing is the the real BC's are very, very close to the calculate BC and that the real BC can be about 10% higher that calulated on some bullets. I'm NOT advocating that people slow thier bullets down, what I am advocating is that they try higher BC bullets at the velocity they are now using.  Yes, I know that you can't just go out there and buy anything you like in the way of bullet designs > but, it is something to consider when looking for a mold. And just because it has a pointy nose, dosen't mean it will have a high BC.</p>

<p>Frank</p>

<p> </p>
</p>

            </div>

                <div class=

  • Liked by
  • mrbill2
OU812 posted this 30 November 2016

I like the nose radius of this bullet. Scaled up versions would be nice.

http://s69.photobucket.com/user/swedenelson/media%20PICTURES/NOE_Bullet_Moulds_227_80Gr_SP__78_gr_Sketch.jpg.html>

Attached Files

Scearcy posted this 09 December 2016

I think it can be very difficult  to determine whether ones accuracy issues are due to the rifle/load or technique.  I am speaking here of Hunter and Production rifles as I have no direct experience with 3” fore ends and 2 oz triggers.  At times I took a pet 223 to the range to see if I could still shoot or had my technique deteriorated.  Only later did it occur to me that shooting an eleven pound rifle with little recoil and muzzle velocity approaching 3500 fps well did not indicate much about my technique with a 9# 308 at 1700 fps.

I don't own a Lead Sled or anything similar so at this point I haven't devised a way to reliably separate my technique (or lack thereof) from the accuracy of the rifle/load.  FWIW after 20+ years shooting production, military and hunter rifles, I believe that many more 2” groups have been spoiled by poor technique than by an inaccurate rifle.  I also believe our better shooters who are shooting well (likely beating the rest of us) but not  great  are limited by their load or rifle - in the 3 classes where I have experience. No science here, only my opinion.

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • RicinYakima
Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 10 December 2016

i think that most shooters are better than their cast bullet loads ...

if

we are talking about the 90 per cent of cast loads that give 2 to 4 moa groups ... ...

i suspect that no shooter that posts here can not shoot 1.0 moa with a bolt rifle bedded correctly and decent mj bullets with minimum load development ..... over a couple of simple sandbags .

...now for those miracle workers who are shooting cast below 3/4 moa .... yep, they have superior technique... but also a killer load and equipment .

IMHO the biggest obstacle to a higher level  understanding of cast accuracy is simply lack of adequate funding combined with finding the obsessive researchers people ... ...  this isn't NASA with gov't. grants .... and i doubt that there is sufficient reward for the suppliers of cast bullet equipment to have much of a sponsorship budget ... i think we are very very lucky to get the support we do have .... we don't attract much of a spectator crowd ... 

**********

if i were shooting 30 cal., and wanted to check my technique, i would buy a box of sierra 165 gr matchkings and load to about the same velocity as my cast bullet .... probably take me 8 shots to determine my level of bench technique ... .

ken

 

 

 

 

Attached Files

mtngun posted this 10 December 2016

Frnkeore, you make some excellent points and give us something to think about.

To my eye the unsupported nose of the Paul Jones bullet is too long.    It might suffice at low velocities but will be prone to tipping and yawing if you push it too hard.   There is a reason cast bullets do not have long ogives like jacketed bullets.

The bullet below has a calculated G1 BC of 0.34 despite a conservative ogive length.    10 mph wind drift at typical CBA velocities:

2000 fps, 100 yards = 1.6", 200 yards = 6.7"
2100 fps, 100 yards = 1.5", 200 yards = 6.2"
2200 fps, 100 yards = 1.4", 200 yards = 5.8"
2300 fps, 100 yards = 1.3", 200 yards = 5.5"

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • Maven
mtngun posted this 10 December 2016

IMHO the biggest obstacle to a higher level  understanding of cast accuracy is simply lack of adequate funding combined with finding the obsessive researchers people ... ...  this isn't NASA with gov't. grants ....ken

 

Agree, Ken.   The jacketed benchrest crowd does not receive NASA funding, either, but they seem to be mostly affluent -- they don't bat an eyelash at the price of Nightforce & March scopes -- whereas casting has always been a working class hobby.    The working class has not done well in recent decades, and what budget they do have for shooting seems to be going into the semi-auto fad, not into traditional target shooting. 

(I don't know how to turn off the italics when replying to a quote in this new forum?)

Attached Files

Larry Gibson posted this 10 December 2016

Certainly agree Mtngun about cast bullets with long noses at higher velocities.  They just do not have the bearing length to support the bullets long tapered nose during acceleration, especially with the faster twists needed to stabilize the longer bullet.

 

What looks good on paper in design does not always pan out in reality with cast bullets.  I measure the actual BC of bullets in flight with an Oehler M43.  What I've found is bullets with BCs calculated to be .290 - .30o in reality have BCs in the .240 - .250s at 2200 to 3000+ fps.  Thus with cast bullet design for HV use I've found a short somewhat pointed ogive with 65%+ bearing surface to perform best at accuracy with higher velocity.  This is why your 7mm bullet is doing well and why the 311465, 311466 and the NOE 30 XCB in .30 caliber do so well.

 

Larry Gibson (LMG) 

Concealment is not cover.........

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • mtngun
OU812 posted this 10 December 2016

Match Grade Accuracy, Velocity, Bullet and Owning and Operating a Lathe.

Man I wish I owned a good lathe.

 

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • mtngun
John Alexander posted this 11 December 2016

"if i were shooting 30 cal., and wanted to check my technique, i would buy a box of sierra 165 gr matchkings and load to about the same velocity as my cast bullet .... probably take me 8 shots to determine my level of bench technique ... ."

ken

============

I agree Ken for those odd folks that shoot 30 caliber. Often when you do that you can relax about all the ways you could be screwing up -- not that we can't all screw it up with shooting technique. Your suggestion is also one advocated by the late Ed Doonan for checking out whether the rifle/scope is worth working with to shoot cast bullets.  If it won't shoot match grade MJs well at CB velocities it isn't likely to shoot CBs well.

John

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • mtngun
John Alexander posted this 11 December 2016

Ken sez,

"IMHO the biggest obstacle to a higher level  understanding of cast accuracy is simply lack of adequate funding combined with finding the obsessive researchers people ... ...  this isn't NASA with gov't. grants .... and i doubt that there is sufficient reward for the suppliers of cast bullet equipment to have much of a sponsorship budget ... i think we are very very lucky to get the support we do have .... we don't attract much of a spectator crowd ... “

=====

I think an even more potent obstacle to understanding cast bullet accuracy is that most people attracted to CB shooting have little inclination to pay attention to the results from the small amount good experimentation that is done.  We don't so much need funding as more open minds and a willingness to let go of the old rules passed down to us.

Dr. Mann destroyed many of the rules, assumption, and beliefs shooters held sacred in 1900.  Others have repeated his experiments since.  Yet, 2016 CB shooters believe many of things disproved over a hundred years ago.

Most CB shooters seem to approach shooting more as an exercise in a fundamental religion with a strict, inconvenient, rigid, far-fetched, and never changing set of truths rather than a body of knowledge that can be added to by the scientific method. More funding is not going to cure this problem.

John

 

 

 

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • mtngun
mtngun posted this 11 December 2016

 

Dr. Mann destroyed many of the rules, assumption, and beliefs shooters held sacred in 1900. 

Most CB shooters seem to approach shooting more as an exercise in a fundamental religion with a strict, inconvenient, rigid, far-fetched, and never changing set of truths rather than a body of knowledge that can be added to by the scientific method. More funding is not going to cure this problem.
....
Yes, John, but Dr. Mann was able to do what he did because he was independently wealthy.   I'm guessing that Colonel Harrison had a military pension while he was doing his CB experiments, because the NRA didn't pay its editors that much?   Harold Vaughn was comfortably retired when he did his experiments.   Most CBA competitors seem to be retired folks?   I'm not sure how Veral found time to do experiments in his early days?

The jacketed benchrest community seems to be mostly well off and, unlike the CB community, they run out and buy the latest technology no matter how ridiculous the price.     $2500 scopes, $600 rests,  $3000 carbide swaging dies, $1300 actions, etc..  

But I agree that the CB community has a conservative slant.   It's my observation that casting has always been a predominately working class hobby.   Most of us started casting because we wanted to save money.   Eventually we became fascinated with casting & cast bullets as a hobby in and of itself.

 

 

 

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • John Carlson
45 2.1 posted this 11 December 2016

John said,


I think an even more potent obstacle to understanding cast bullet accuracy is that most people attracted to CB shooting have little inclination to pay attention to the results from the small amount good experimentation that is done.  We don't so much need funding as more open minds and a willingness to let go of the old rules passed down to us.

Dr. Mann destroyed many of the rules, assumption, and beliefs shooters held sacred in 1900.  Others have repeated his experiments since.  Yet, 2016 CB shooters believe many of things disproved over a hundred years ago.

Most CB shooters seem to approach shooting more as an exercise in a fundamental religion with a strict, inconvenient, rigid, far-fetched, and never changing set of truths rather than a body of knowledge that can be added to by the scientific method. More funding is not going to cure this problem.

John

 

A lot of people ignore what is done because they don't want to shoot a bench rest rifle. Most of these folks buy top of the line commercial that can be carried and used in the field for hunting, varminting etc. To negate any other form of non bench rest rifle experimentation is a crime, because some of those folks can make you set down and examine what you, as a bench rest shooter, are doing wrong.

We are far ahead of Dr. Mann in terms of knowledge of cast now. The problem is very few use it. One MOA cast results doesn't mean you know what you're doing.

The scientific method allows infinite choices. Why don't you use it? Match results allow people to copy the accuracy level, not make a break thru in dramatically improving that level.

 

 

 

 

Attached Files

David Reiss posted this 11 December 2016

Just moving the thread back to the latest.

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys, Good Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .

Attached Files

OU812 posted this 12 December 2016

IMHO the biggest obstacle to a higher level  understanding of cast accuracy is simply lack of area to test. I wish I could shoot from my bedroom window wearing my boxers.

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • mtngun
  • Ken Campbell Iowa
John Carlson posted this 14 December 2016

Identifying the accuracy potential of the shooter and rifle combination by shooting match grade jacketed bullets is an interesting concept.  Since I don't venture outside the loads that either I find in a loading manual or I know others have used safely I hadn't considered shooting jacketed bullets at cast velocities, particularly shooting 200gr bullets around 1500fps as is common in 30 cal military rifles.  Is this a practice that could apply to the military rifle discipline or would it only apply where cast bullet velocities are closer to normal velocities for jacketed bullets?

 

John Carlson. CBA Director of Military Competition.

Attached Files

RicinYakima posted this 14 December 2016

John, with jacketed bullets you are on your own. However, I find that Townsend Whelen's and Phil Sharp's loads from 1937 through 1955 still work just fine. The one cravat is that you can't use ball powders nor surplus powders; IMR or double based Hercules stuff only. FWIW, Ric

Attached Files

John Alexander posted this 14 December 2016

John Carlson wrote: “ Is this a practice that could apply to the military rifle discipline or would it only apply where cast bullet velocities are closer to normal velocities for jacketed bullets?"

====

John,

Ken's and Ed's idea is to shoot both the CBs and JBs at the same velocity.

If your concern is safety I don't know why it wouldn't be safe to substitute a jacketed bullet of the same weight in a published 1,500 fps load for a cast bullet . The pressure rise shouldn't be much. After all we sometimes use the same factory power loads in some pistol and big bore (think 45-70) for both cast and jacketed.  However, subsonic loads might possibly cause a stuck bullet.

Whether Ed Doonan was right. or not, is another question.  I once had a rifle that would shoot CBs slightly better than any JB load I found -- but I think it was a rare bird and I probably didn't using match grade JBs.

John

Attached Files

John Carlson posted this 16 December 2016

Another interesting project to work on.  Too bad it will have to wait while I spend the next 2/3 months testing new ways to keep warm.

John Carlson. CBA Director of Military Competition.

Attached Files

MarkinEllensburg posted this 31 March 2017

Ok so what have we learned? With the same technique and 4x scope I tested a hands full of .22 LR out of my Win model 52 target rifle. Most groups were under an inch at 50 yards. With my Ruger #1 jacketed bullets have historically averaged under an inch at 100 yards from a bench or prone. My cast bullets out of the same gun have yet to group better than 3” at 100 yards.

Why are cast bullets so hard to get to group? I think my technique is better than my results. I wonder if it is my casting. My most recent casting session seems to have gone better than some. I seemed to make nice shinny bullets. Tonight I took the time to weigh those out of one mould. RCBS ..25 120 gr I culled 4. the extreme spread was 121.6 to 122.5. I came up with two weights that had a much larger piles than the rest. 121.9 and 122.2 I'm guessing that is the difference between the cavities. I'll inspect further to see if that is proven by marks on the bullets. I had 20 and 24 bullets at those weights respectfully. 16 bullets between those weights and 22 over the higher weight.

I have several different bullets cast from other moulds in the same session to individually weigh. I'm thinking it is worthwhile because it appears that is what my dad did. I discovered as I was cleaning his loading bench a series of trays in increments of tenth of a grain. @OU812 he had a lathe and knew how to use it as well.

My question is will an extreme spread of less than one grain going to make much difference at 100 yards? I'll be able to shoot two ten shot groups at 2 different weights and then two 10 shot groups where the difference is .2 grain. I'll report my results. I have so much to learn.

Attached Files

Scearcy posted this 31 March 2017

The most accurate rifle I have seen in 20 years of CB competition had the following:

Excellent custom barrel - 10” twist - 2 oz trigger

Weight in excess of 15#

36X scope 

30 BR 

Monotype bullets bumped very firmly in custom swaging dies - as nearly perfect as I have seen - spitzers -200+ grains

MV in excess of 2100  fps

I personally measured groups in the .2 range and aggs right at .4

In his later years the owner (in poor health) sold the rifle to another shooter who l fired a 200 - 9x and then never came to another match.

Jim

 

 

Attached Files

John Alexander posted this 01 April 2017

MarkinEllensburg asks: “My question is will an extreme spread of less than one grain going to make much difference at 100 yards?"

Short answer -- NO nor at 200 years either.  

Longer answer -- I have never heard of a well designed test that showed that weight differences of less than one percent make any difference. Sorting bullets into lots of .2 grain  or less is done by a lot of shooters. They say it gives them confidence which is important.  If you run tests to see if it make any difference, shoot enough groups so your answers are real instead of just the variation of two single groups, and find that sorting to .2 grain improves accuracy I hope you will report it. 

There are other things way more important than bullet weight variation especially bullet fit to the throat and bore.

Good luck with your cast bullets.

John

Attached Files

45 2.1 posted this 01 April 2017

MarkinEllensburg asks: “My question is will an extreme spread of less than one grain going to make much difference at 100 yards?"

Short answer -- NO nor at 200 years either.  

John
I believe you would get a very spirited argument from the ASSRA and the Scheutzen guys about that.

Attached Files

John Carlson posted this 01 April 2017

ASSRA, Scheutzen, IBS and others are somewhat different disciplines than ours.  I'm not sure similar variations will produce similar effects when applied to one rifle that shoots 1” groups on a good day and another rifle that shoots 1/4” groups on a bad day.

John Carlson. CBA Director of Military Competition.

Attached Files

joeb33050 posted this 01 April 2017

ASSRA, Scheutzen, IBS and others are somewhat different disciplines than ours.  I'm not sure similar variations will produce similar effects when applied to one rifle that shoots 1” groups on a good day and another rifle that shoots 1/4” groups on a bad day.

????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

One of two things seems to be true with cast bullets.

No rifle shoots 1/4” groups on a bad day. The CBA NM records show 1/4” group averages never.

or

The 1/4” group rifles/shooters are hiding.

 

Cast bullet accuracy averaging ~ 1” 100 yards 5 shot groups is very good.

Cast bullet accuracy averaging ~ 1/2” is virtually unheard of. Match results show this.

ASSRA match results report only the BEST target, following the monkeys/typewriters/hamlet principle.

Attached Files

frnkeore posted this 01 April 2017

"ASSRA match results report only the BEST target, following the monkeys/typewriters/hamlet principle." 

Joe, could you explain your quote, in more detail?

Regarding ASSRA accuracy and 5 shot groups or 5 - 5 shot groups @ 100 yards. Those matches are hardly ever shot in ASSRA competition. If they where, the average would be very close or even under 1/2", for the 5 - 5 groups @ 100, for the better shooters. You can not include all shooters in ASSRA, we only have one class and everyone shoots in it, regardless of their skill or equipment level.

I'm a active shooter and I've only shot that match one time in about 20 years, my average was .525 and I was 3rd place. My small group was .336. I had one bad group of .82 but the other 4 averaged .466. Our current 5 shot, 200 yard record was shot last Aug and is .275 and 100 yard is .141. Lucky groups, sure! But they were shot at a outdoor match, open to all.

ASSRA is mostly a 200 yard sport and shoot 100, rarely. At a 500+ fps disadvantage, the better shooters can hold their own against any cast bullet rifle, even in the time constraints of a CBA match.

Frank

Attached Files

45 2.1 posted this 01 April 2017

Cast bullet accuracy averaging ~ 1” 100 yards 5 shot groups is very good.

Cast bullet accuracy averaging ~ 1/2” is virtually unheard of. Match results show this.

 

Both of these statements seem to be the rule here......... but elsewhere they are not (as aptly put buy frnkeore). Seems to me you should try to learn what they are doing because of the above. It is not that hard to do...........................

Attached Files

John Alexander posted this 01 April 2017

45 2.1 wrote: “I believe you would get a very spirited argument from the ASSRA and the Scheutzen guys about that."

 

You are right but I don't have to go that far, most CBA competitors also weigh sort bullets.  Some sort 200 grain bullets to .1 grain (1/20 of one percent). 

Yet I have never seen reported an apparently honest and well designed test where bullets varying in weigh by 1% were shot in alternating groups with bullets sorted to .1 grain that showed any advantage to the sorted bullets.  It would probably take at least 5 five shot groups with each type of bullet and probably more to be valid.  Sure people sometimes report on comparing two groups which we all know means nothing. If sorting is worth expending the vast amounts of time that CB shooters obviously do, why hasn't somebody done the work to prove it? My guess it that some  shooters have tried to prove the value of weight sorting and failed to show a difference.  I know that I have.

As far as the scheutzen shooters still sorting by weigh, it hasn't been too long since they claimed that you had to shoot bullets in the order they were cast, also with no experimental evidence to support that old fallacy.  I understand that most of the good shooters have abandoned that practice and scores keep climbing.

John 

Attached Files

frnkeore posted this 01 April 2017

” I understand that most of the good shooters have abandoned that practice and scores keep climbing.

John “

Some of the best ASSRA shooters, still do that, including the 5 shot group record holder.

I personally do not shot bullets in the order cast, nor do many others and I do not promote it.

I think what we get into with these bullet things, is that people that strive to do their best, like to KNOW that they have produce the best that they can, to shoot in a match. Even if it MAY NOT improve their shooting, they want to know that they have done their best. Not just bullets but, in everything they shoot.

 

Frank

Attached Files

joeb33050 posted this 01 April 2017

Seems to me you should try to learn what they are doing because of the above. It is not that hard to do...........................

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I was in the ASSRA for over 25 years; shot matches at Etna Green, Alabama Hunt Club, (WNYSS), Bridgeport, Pembroke, Long Island, Florida, others.

Had rifles/barrels by Bud Welsh and Ken Bresein, saw the Stevens copy making setup-broach etc, at Ken's. Had original WHW, Ruger, NEFA/H&R, ,  Savage 44 & 44 1/2, Hepburn, RRB, Martini, Werndl, Navy Arms RB, Navy Arms Martini, C. Sharps M1875, Trapdoor and Maynard rifles.

Here's what they, ASSRA, do. You've got 2 days to shoot. You can buy as many targets for a match as you want. It was not uncommon to see four or more targets on a frame-same match. A guy who shot a 245 Saturday at 10 AM could buy targets and shoot them Saturday and Sunday, and eventually turn in his best target, which might have crept up to, say, 249.

Now, before Frank gets all hot, there are some 1 target matches, mostly cf matches are at 200 yards, and what I have writ ain't a complaint. I don't care HOW the ASSRA does it, they've been doing it since 1946. But, there's a difference between a CBA match where the shooter sits down, shoots 4 5-shot groups, and those are scored; and the ASSRA match I've described.

Frank, if you set enough monkeys  down with enough typewriters for long enough, one will type Hamlet. 

I think I know what they're doing. And, BTFW, the first $1000 profit  from the book went to Rudi Prusok at the ASSRA for their extensive library.

Attached Files

frnkeore posted this 01 April 2017

Joe,

I've never shot at EG but, you are talking about single target re-entry matches. I can't speak for EG but, in ALL the multi target matches, that I've shot on the West Coast, they are shot in the same day, similar to CBA's group and score target matches or more restrictive. The five, 5 shot match that I shot in was shot in one relay, not mulitple relays like CBA does. 

Not all ASSRA matches are shot as re-enrty and many single entry targets can only be shot once a year, some can be shot as many as 3 times a year and not every match, during the year. The foregoing has to be abided by to set a record. I can shoot 5 shot agg's at Roseburg about 5 times (or more if scheduled) a year to qualify for a CBA record. ASSRA, it's only once a year per club.

For a better understanding of ASSRA matches, these are the records and when they can be shot:

http://www.assra.com/assra_record_scores.htm

The 5 shot record hasn't been updated (reset by the same person to .275) and one of the 10 group records, also.

I was away from CBA for a long time, things change and you need to make sure of what you say, before telling the CBA what ASSRA does w/o checking first.

Frank

Attached Files

joeb33050 posted this 01 April 2017

Joe,

I've never shot at EG but, you are talking about single target re-entry matches. I can't speak for EG but, in ALL the multi target matches, that I've shot on the West Coast, they are shot in the same day, similar to CBA's group and score target matches or more restrictive. The five, 5 shot match that I shot in was shot in one relay, not mulitple relays like CBA does. 

Not all ASSRA matches are shot as re-enrty and many single entry targets can only be shot once a year, ome can be shot as many as 3 times a year and not every match, during the year.

For a better understanding of ASSRA matches, these are the records and when they can be shot:

http://www.assra.com/assra_record_scores.htm

The 5 shot record hasn't been updated (reset by the same person to .275) and one of the 10 group records, also.

I was away from CBA for a long time, things change and you need to make sure of what you say, before telling the CBA what ASSRA does w/o checking first.

Frank

 

Frank, many ASSRA matches are shot multiple entry. Not all, Frank, and we ain't in the 3rd grade.

There are lotsa PBB entries in CBA matches, and they ain't shooting <.5 avg at 100 as a matter of course.

I can't compare ASSRA and CBA match results, and neither can you. But ASSRA guys are very happy to shoot 10 in 1.5” at 200, and that's about.75 min.

From 2000 to 2016, 17 CBA NM's, 6 of 17 years saw no = zero 100 yd 5 shot 4 group avgs. In the other 11 years, there were 23 avgs < .5, 23/17 = 1.35 < .5 avgs per year.

Shooting 100 yard 5 shot 5 group averages is RARE.

Anyone wanting the CBA NM results from 1996 to 2016 has but to ask, EXCEL.

Facts just beat the dicklens out of opinions! A. Lincoln

Attached Files

joeb33050 posted this 01 April 2017

From Frank's link:

        200 Yards, Benchrest

Kelly Match: Benchrest, 5 shots for group, reentry

Schoyen Match: Benchrest, 10 shots for score, reentry

 

Reentry means you can buy and shoot as many targets as you want, and turn in only the best.

Attached Files

Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 01 April 2017

here is the assra site with activated link.

http://www.assra.com/assra_record_scores.htm

Attached Files

frnkeore posted this 01 April 2017

From Frank's link:

        200 Yards, Benchrest

Kelly Match: Benchrest, 5 shots for group, reentry

Schoyen Match: Benchrest, 10 shots for score, reentry

 

Reentry means you can buy and shoot as many targets as you want, and turn in only the best.

 

OK Joe, now go back and tell us how many matches are marked “Single Entry Only".

Frank

Attached Files

45 2.1 posted this 01 April 2017


 

John Alexander wrote: Yet I have never seen reported an apparently honest and well designed test where bullets varying in weigh by 1% were shot in alternating groups with bullets sorted to .1 grain that showed any advantage to the sorted bullets.  It would probably take at least 5 five shot groups with each type of bullet and probably more to be valid.  Sure people sometimes report on comparing two groups which we all know means nothing. If sorting is worth expending the vast amounts of time that CB shooters obviously do, why hasn't somebody done the work to prove it? My guess it that some  shooters have tried to prove the value of weight sorting and failed to show a difference.  I know that I have.

John, a lot goes on that is never reported. I did the above tests somewhat different than you outlined. I shot them in the same group at long range (over a period of a year with many such groups). A really good spotting scope will allow you to do that with 45 caliber bullets or you can walk down and measure it yourself. It showed that the like weight bullets grouped together and the lighter / heavier ones were out of the group. The like ones occupied a clock position of 8 on the edge of the group with the others completing a round group. That rifle shot extremely well once it had the bullet it liked along with alloy and load. One has to have a rifle capable of the task as well as the ability to use it. Not every rifle will show that. It also showed that it made no difference in that rifle whether it was oriented or not. Another high quality rifle in the same caliber showed opposite results. Rifles aren't created equal, like most other things in the world.
What does matter is a persons choice of alloy, temper of same, fit of bullet and cartridge. The old-timers admonition was to match alloy to load. That isn't happening in much I see here and it is quite important.

Attached Files

John Alexander posted this 02 April 2017

Frank wrote: “I think what we get into with these bullet things, is that people that strive to do their best, like to KNOW that they have produce the best that they can, to shoot in a match. Even if it MAY NOT improve their shooting, they want to know that they have done their best. Not just bullets but, in everything they shoot."

I understand and respect that. Also a lot of shooters who do a lot of anal things that aren't proven to help tell me it makes them feel more confident. I am not trying to convert those folks.  Confidence helps and it that's the way you like to shoot have at it.

What I object to is established shooters telling younger or newer shooters they should do those things without having any evidence that they help.  I think we drive off a lot of potential CB shooters who AREN'T anal and might keep at it if we didn't make it sound so darned time consuming.

BYT -- not all people who strive to do their best fuss with details just to fuss. I strive to do my best as hard as the next bear but I don't do everything passed down from on high.  If repeated experiments show that it doesn't help I don't do it.  That seems way more logical to me than to do everything others are doing.  What is that definition of insanity people like to quote.

John

Attached Files

John Carlson posted this 02 April 2017

I was referencing the comparison of cast bullet matches versus jacket bullet matches.  Some of the standard practices in a discipline where 1/4” is a bad group are likely not applicable to a discipline where 1” is a good group.  Thus the lack of evidence supporting the  weighing of components down to the tenth of a grain in the cast bullet world.

John Carlson. CBA Director of Military Competition.

Attached Files

RicinYakima posted this 02 April 2017

I am one of the anal people. And I don't mind telling folks that; I want to make the “best” ammo possible. I weight all my bullets looking for the one in about 200 that is 2 grains light because of a void I can not see. Since I already weighted them, why drop them back into one box? I put 10 Dixie cups out and sort by 0.01 grain, just as easy as not doing it. I orient my cases and bullets. Why? Because it is just a easy for me to do that as not on my 85 year old Pacific press. Plus it is fun and I enjoy it.

However, after doing the tests for John Alexander and Joe B., I know it doesn't make any difference shooting five 5-shot groups. But I do it anyway, because I like to do it that way!

Best Wishes, Ric

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • John Carlson
OU812 posted this 02 April 2017


 

What does matter is a persons choice of alloy, temper of same, fit of bullet and cartridge. The old-timers admonition was to match alloy to load. That isn't happening in much I see here and it is quite important.

True. I urge all of you to think outside the box and try different things such as slower powders ...748 or 760 for example.  Just discovered my 223 (1/12 twist) likes 21grs. 748 powder, with 75gr Linotype bullet

Some of the best shooters do not compete

 

Attached Files

RicinYakima posted this 02 April 2017

Some of the best shooters do not compete. And when they die everything they knew will be forgotten; unless they wrote an article for “The Fouling Shot” if it wasn't in a match report!

Attached Files

OU812 posted this 02 April 2017

I miss Precision Shooting magazine...they had some fine articles about rifle accuracy...both cast and jacketed.

Attached Files

RicinYakima posted this 02 April 2017

Oh so do I miss them very much. Especially since I had 2 years and 10 months left on my subscription and no refunds, no communications and no magazine. They simple sucked all of us old time subscribers into sending them money and then closed the doors. Well, what can you expect from an outfit that ran out of a tavern.

Articles were good to the end, except for the ones that were made up and falsified.

 

Attached Files

MarkinEllensburg posted this 02 April 2017

Some of the best shooters do not compete. And when they die everything they knew will be forgotten; unless they wrote an article for “The Fouling Shot” if it wasn't in a match report!

Some that do compete do not document what it is that they did. My father Richard (Dick) Stripes was one such. I asked him before he lost most of his memory if he ever wrote down and documented what he did to Ruger Number 1's that made them shoot good. He said no and added it did not always work. At the end of his life he seemed from what I can discern, to have as many questions as answers.

There seems to be so many variables with cast bullets that the learning curve is quite steep. I've been casting for years, mostly pistol and also for a .30/30. I'm humbled since I started casting for my .25-06. A rifle that  is proven with jacketed bullets is so far lacking with cast @ 100 yards.

Thanks for adding to this conversation. Bullet fit, alloy choice and consistency in loading seems to be what you all are saying is the key to good results.It is probably a different discussion  but how should a bullet fit the throat? I would think that there is a difference between bore riding and non bore riding bullets and both must work some of the time.

Attached Files

joeb33050 posted this 02 April 2017

I would like to ask those that shoot in the target rifle classes (HVY, UNR & UNP) of CBA matches, what do you think is the thing that effects the accuracy, at the target the most, at 200 yards? And the same question of those that shoot in the lower velocity classes like Production, Hunter and Milsurp. Frank
*************************************************************************************************************
I'm in the middle of an experiment about “what things affect accuracy and how much". I'm shooting cast and (fewer) jacketed bullets with the same charges. I have 3 barrels , 22-250, for the Striker pistol, SS and Blue with 12” twist, 16 1/2” with 9” twist. The 16 1/2” and BLUE will reliably shoot 225646M into 5 shot 5 group 100 yard averages < 1.5". The SS barrel is close.
All barrels will shoot jacketed bullets averaging < 1", same everything including powder charge, 7.5 in 9 twist, 8.5 in 12 twist; Titegroup.
From this, I infer the following:
Accuracy is affected by the bullet, primarily.
Accuracy is not affected, at least in the 1-1.5 inch group area, by the shooter or his technique, the bench equipment, the reloading equipment or technique, the powder-given that the powder works with jacketed, the brass or the primers.
Means that weighing powder charges or brass or sorting brass within a lot or measuring/adjusting concentricity or such will NOT get those cast bullets down to 1". It's the bullet.
Now, I embarked on this, my second 22cf voyage, because I could shoot ~ 1” 308 groups to the point of boredom. I suspect that the .30 cast vs jacketed would show the same as the .22, but I don't know.
joe b.
 

Attached Files

GP Idaho posted this 02 April 2017

MarkinE; Two rifles in my accumulation can be counted on to shoot sub-moa. Both are 26” barreled Rem. 700s, one in 25-06 the other 223. The 25-06 was the last rifle that I own that I bought a mould for because of the case size to bullet ratio and “Everybody knows” this is a problem with cast bullets and well, it just shot 100gr Sierra flat bases so well. At last  , I chose a NOE mould (258-120-fn) This is a design by Frank (frnkeore) that Al at NOE modified the lube grooves on and it fits my 25-06 like it was made for my rifle. I believe it would be well worth a try in your 25. Gp

Attached Files

frnkeore posted this 02 April 2017

Joe,

You quote my question but you missed the important part of it. If you go back and re-read it, it says 200 yards, that was the point of the question.

"Accuracy is not affected, at least in the 1-1.5 inch group area, by the shooter or his technique, the bench equipment, the reloading equipment or technique, the powder-given that the powder works with jacketed, the brass or the primers."

I think you'll get opposition to match shooters on that statement or anyone that experiments with devoloping loads.

Two points come to mind (there are many others), did you test shooting off of the barrel against shooting off the forearm and did you do primer tests with your loads? There are 4 basic primers, SP, SR, SP mag and SR mag, plus many brands of them.

You also don't qualify a shooters experience level. I know many people that can't shoot well off the bench with a UnR.

And last, you didn't answer my quest about how many ASSRA matches are marke “Single Entry Only". I ask only because I don't want people mislead about ASSRA matches. That's important to me because it's where I stated and my roots in this sport.

Frank

Attached Files

45 2.1 posted this 02 April 2017

MarkinEllensburg wrote:
   It is probably a different discussion  but how should a bullet fit the throat? I would think that there is a difference between bore riding and non bore riding bullets and both must work some of the time.

 

Bullets wear the throat........ some, (depending on material, heat and alloy) wear it faster. It erodes into a irregular curvilinear tapered cone. There are specific points where the wear is fairly constant (this was determined from overlaying the results of 100's of impact throat slugs checking wear from different age rifles).... you fit those points. What you want is for the bullet to gradually (if anything that happens this fast can be called gradual) engage (instead of all at once as that limits the pressure/velocity/accuracy that you can achieve) and line up the bullet for a concentric fit in the barrel. Bore riding bullets do not fit this curve well and shoot reasonably at velocities less than 1800 fps in the match grade range. Non bore riding bullets contain many types and shouldn't be quantified unless described fully.

Attached Files

joeb33050 posted this 02 April 2017

Joe,

You quote my question but you missed the important part of it. If you go back and re-read it, it says 200 yards, that was the point of the question.

WHAT QUESTION?

 

"Accuracy is not affected, at least in the 1-1.5 inch group area, by the shooter or his technique, the bench equipment, the reloading equipment or technique, the powder-given that the powder works with jacketed, the brass or the primers."

I think you'll get opposition to match shooters on that statement or anyone that experiments with devoloping loads.

I HAVE DATA!  YOU CLAIM TO “THINK".

 

Two points come to mind (there are many others), did you test shooting off of the barrel against shooting off the forearm and did you do primer tests with your loads? There are 4 basic primers, SP, SR, SP mag and SR mag, plus many brands of them.

A. IT'S A PISTOL.

B. NO, HAVE YOU?

 

 

ou also don't qualify a shooters experience level. I know many people that can't shoot well off the bench with a UnR.

 

MY EXPERIENCE LEVEL. SUPURB.

And last, you didn't answer my quest about how many ASSRA matches are marke “Single Entry Only". I ask only because I don't want people mislead about ASSRA matches. That's important to me because it's where I stated and my roots in this sport.

COUNT THEM. I NEVER SAID THAT ALL ASSRA MATCHES ARE RE-ENTRY.

 

Frank

WE HAD A SNOWBIRD AT THE RANGE A YEAR AGO BRAGGING ABOUT HIS SS RIFLES UP NORTH, AND CLAIMING TO SHOOT <.5” 100 YARD 5 SHOT 5 GROUP AVGS.

I OFFERED HIM A BET: MY $1000 AGAINST HIS $1000 THAT HE COULDN'T COME TO THE RANGE AND SHOOT A <.5” 100 YARD 5 SHOT 5 GROUP AVERAGE. HE HASN'T BEEN SEEN SINCE.

HOW ABOUT YOU, FRANK? I'LL BET YOU $1000 THAT YOU CAN'T COME TO ANY RANGE AND SHOOT 5 5-SHOT GROUPS AVERAGING <.5. READY?

(It ain't like the 3rd grade now, is it?)

 

Attached Files

45 2.1 posted this 02 April 2017

Hmmmm, my take is Frank can take Joe's money............ as can quite a few other folks. Experience does not trump technical know-how.

Attached Files

joeb33050 posted this 02 April 2017

Hmmmm, my take is Frank can take Joe's money............ as can quite a few other folks. Experience does not trump technical know-how.

 

I've got another $1000 for you, ready?

joe b.

Attached Files

frnkeore posted this 02 April 2017

"ASSRA match results report only the BEST target, following the monkeys/typewriters/hamlet principle."

” I NEVER SAID THAT ALL ASSRA MATCHES ARE RE-ENTRY."  

The above iare YOUR quotes, Joe. They seem to contradict each other.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Two points come to mind (there are many others), did you test shooting off of the barrel against shooting off the forearm and did you do primer tests with your loads? There are 4 basic primers, SP, SR, SP mag and SR mag, plus many brands of them.

A. IT'S A PISTOL.

B. NO, HAVE YOU?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A. I believe your pistol has both a forarm and a barrel to shoot of of. I know my XP100 does.

B. Yes, I usually test primers. Two powders that I know that primers make a big difference on is 4759 & 300MP and of course BP, you should try that one It doesn't make any difference with IMR4227 in my tests.

Have you tested primers with TiteGroup? If so, what do the targets look like?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

HOW ABOUT YOU, FRANK? I'LL BET YOU $1000 THAT YOU CAN'T COME TO ANY RANGE AND SHOOT 5 5-SHOT GROUPS AVERAGING <.5. READY? 

I'll take you up on that, if we meet in Modesto, CA! Put up or shut up, I say

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You quote my question but you missed the important part of it. If you go back and re-read it, it says 200 yards, that was the point of the question.

WHAT QUESTION?

Go back and read the OP

---------------------------------------------------------------------

You state:

Accuracy is not affected, at least in the 1-1.5 inch group area, by the shooter or his technique 

And then you say:

MY EXPERIENCE LEVEL. SUPURB. 

So, is this about only you or is it for the masses? Help us understand.

And lastly, why do you alway use the ASSRA standard of five, 5 shot groups, rather than the CBA standard of four, 5 shot groups?

Frank

Attached Files

frnkeore posted this 02 April 2017

BTW, regarding the $1000 bet, we will need to use the CBA standard of four, 5 shot groups. After all this is the CBA forum and you generally talk about CBA match results. 

But, you seem to like mixing apples with oranges, if it's to your adavantage.

That bring up another math question........ what is the mathmatical difference in the difficulty of a four, 5 shot group Vs a five, 5 shot group? What is the probability that one of the five, 5 shot groups will be larger than one of the four, five shot groups?

Frank

Attached Files

45 2.1 posted this 02 April 2017

Hmmmm, my take is Frank can take Joe's money............ as can quite a few other folks. Experience does not trump technical know-how.

 

I've got another $1000 for you, ready?

joe b.

 

About the same reply as Frank..... I live in Illinois, come visit with your money, you won't leave with it though. CBA standards............................

Attached Files

RicinYakima posted this 02 April 2017

OK, you guys are getting personal and acting not in the interest of the group. End this bickering, or it all goes away. Ric Bowman, Moderator.

Attached Files

Larry Gibson posted this 03 April 2017

"Most CB shooters seem to approach shooting more as an exercise in a fundamental religion with a strict, inconvenient, rigid, far-fetched, and never changing set of truths rather than a body of knowledge that can be added to by the scientific method. More funding is not going to cure this problem."

 

That is exactly the problem and is why we progress little as a collective group if any. Many individuals are progressing. 

 

LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

Attached Files

frnkeore posted this 03 April 2017

OK, you guys are getting personal and acting not in the interest of the group. End this bickering, or it all goes away. Ric Bowman, Moderator.

-----------------------------------------------------

I'm a little confused Ric.

How is asking Joe to clearify misleading statements a personal attack?

This was a thread, posted by me, regarding 200 yards and what people think about a bullets accuracy at 200 yards, not 100 yards.

If your talking about the bet, it is OT but, Joe offered, I just accepted.

Frank

 

 

Attached Files

joeb33050 posted this 03 April 2017

BTW, regarding the $1000 bet, we will need to use the CBA standard of four, 5 shot groups.

FINE.

 

After all this is the CBA forum and you generally talk about CBA match results. 

But, you seem to like mixing apples with oranges, if it's to your adavantage.

That bring up another math question........ what is the mathmatical difference in the difficulty of a four, 5 shot group Vs a five, 5 shot group? What is the probability that one of the five, 5 shot groups will be larger than one of the four, five shot groups?

IT DEPENDS ON THE “TRUE” OR “LONG TERM” ACCURACY OF THE GUN/SHOOTER/ETC.

IF THE LTA < .5, FIVE GROUPS WILL AVG < .5 MORE OFTEN THAN 4 GROUPS. IF THE LTA > .5, 4 GROUPS WILL AVG  < .5 MORE OFTEN THAN 5 GROUPS. THIS BECAUSE OF THE CENTRAL LIMIT THEOREM, STD OF AVGS VS STD POP.

 

Frank

ANY RANGE, ALL SHOT ONE DAY IN THE NEXT 6 MONTHS, 100 YARDS, 5 SHOT GROUPS,  4 RECORD TARGETS, NONE DISCARDED, UNLIMITED SIGHTERS, 48 HR NOTICE TO ME HERE TO ALERT MY WITNESS.

PUT THE RESULTS HERE, I'LL TELL YOU WHERE TO SEND THE $1000

joe b.

Attached Files

joeb33050 posted this 03 April 2017

Hmmmm, my take is Frank can take Joe's money............ as can quite a few other folks. Experience does not trump technical know-how.

 

I've got another $1000 for you, ready?

joe b.

 

About the same reply as Frank..... I live in Illinois, come visit with your money, you won't leave with it though. CBA standards............................

*****************************************************************************************

YOU WROTE “Hmmmm, my take is Frank can take Joe's money". I'VE GOT $1000 THAT SAYS YOU'RE WRONG. MONEY TALKS,... ARE YOU IN?

I DON'T HAVE TO GO TO CA, AND WOULD NEVER INTENTIONALLY GO TO IL.

joe b.

 

Attached Files

frnkeore posted this 03 April 2017

IT DEPENDS ON THE “TRUE” OR “LONG TERM” ACCURACY OF THE GUN/SHOOTER/ETC.

IF THE LTA < .5, FIVE GROUPS WILL AVG < .5 MORE OFTEN THAN 4 GROUPS. IF THE LTA > .5, 4 GROUPS WILL AVG  < .5 MORE OFTEN THAN 5 GROUPS. THIS BECAUSE OF THE CENTRAL LIMIT THEOREM, STD OF AVGS VS STD POP.

Can you explain this in easy to understand english?

I'm just asking what the probabily is of the averages being the same for 4 and 5 target matches and which one would average larger and by how much. I would think that with your 16 year data base of 4 target results (and maybe a few 5 target) that there would be statistics to support the difficulty of the 5th target, in percentage of the size increase of the fifth target. Is there such a statistical program?

 

Frank

ANY RANGE, ALL SHOT ONE DAY IN THE NEXT 6 MONTHS, 100 YARDS, 5 SHOT GROUPS,  4 RECORD TARGETS, NONE DISCARDED, UNLIMITED SIGHTERS, 48 HR NOTICE TO ME HERE TO ALERT MY WITNESS.

PUT THE RESULTS HERE, I'LL TELL YOU WHERE TO SEND THE $1000

joe b.

 

To be fair and above board, the $1000 on each side will have to go into a escrow account, held by a bank, until the agreed results are presented to the bank.

 

Other wise, come to the range of my choice and we will have someone hold the money for us (or your rep).

 

Frank

Attached Files

R. Dupraz posted this 03 April 2017

joe b and frnkeore:

 

How about continuing your personal arrangements and conversation, a waste of forum space, by PM and get back to the point of the original question which I thought was an interesting one.

  

 

Attached Files

frnkeore posted this 03 April 2017

Egan MX4 30 ARD, Start Vel 2000 fps    

 

100 yd, Vel 1723, Wind drift 2.44 10 mph @ 90 deg

 

200 yd, Vel 1482, Wind drift 8.89    

 

Paul Jones .322 x 1.22 x 218 gr, Start Vel 1500 fps    

 

100 yd, Vel 1364, Wind drift 2.13

 

200 yd, Vel 1248, Wind drift 7.27    

 

These figures are slightly different from my first post, because I used exact BC's, rather than rounded BC's.    

 

Now, this is to the point of my thread, if we take that MX4 30 ARD and put a more aerodynamic nose on it, as pictured below, we get the following:  

 

MX4 30 ARD, Modified    

 

100 yd, Vel 1796, Wind Drift 1.87 10 mph @ 90 deg

 

200 yd, Vel 1610, Wind drift 6.37  

 

A 2.52” improvement in wind drift @ 200 yds bit only .57 @ 100.  

 

Frank

Attached Files

Close