ACCURACY SEARCH PROTOCOL

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  • Last Post 12 November 2007
CB posted this 09 October 2007

As I've proven here to the satisfaction of the most erudite observer, the following don't matter in the cast bullet world:

Powder charge weights that have any digit to the right of the decimal point other than a 5 or zero

Lubricant choice

Alloy composition, within broad ranges 

Primer choice, within reasonable ranges

Bullet sized diameter, S.T. the throat-fit requirement

Bullet design, bore ride, Loverin, Pope, Lyman old stand bys

Brass make or weight or primer pocket uniformed or flash hole deburred or neck turned precisely

in the world of five shot five group 100 yard averages between 2” and 1.5".

Since my world-rocking experience with IMR4198, I'm wondering just what the accuracy search protocol should be for a gun that is going to remain stock. This means before re-throating, bedding, bore-lapping, muzzle crowning or sending the stock out for the cryo treatment.

For, for instance, a military rifle or M700 Rem/M77 Ruger/Savage 1X/ other non-target rifle, new or used. Or a Competitor pistol.

You ended up with this rifle, you want to get it shooting cast bullets, you're a reasonably experienced reloader/caster, what do you do and in what order?

(Pat; don't help them. Can you see the article?)

Huh?

joe b.

  

 

 

 

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shooter93 posted this 09 October 2007

Well...if you're talking about a box stock out of the box factory rifle then I'll agree with some of the above and I'd focus first on different powders. I've had a number of rifles that all of a sudden preformed great when the correct powder was found. However...when it comes to the ultimate accuracy with a cast bullet then several of the things above can and do often make a measurable difference. The problem with a lot of accuracy questions or debates is the desired accuracy goal isn't out forth at the start. If you want hunting accuracy like your 1.5 to 2 inches at 100 yds then I'd work powder first then if I wanted to know I'd do primers...then brass prep...all assuming ofcourse you have the right size bullet. if you want to break a world record...then you better sweat every detail because you can see differences at times from small changes...atleast in my experience. Bullet style means the least I think as long as the velocity is right for the particular style. Alloys I don't think matter as much either given the velocity restrictions but for maximum accuracy I think consistent temper or hardness does. A bit off track maybe for a question about factory rifles but my thoughts on it anyway.

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billwnr posted this 09 October 2007

Joe Brennan wrote: As I've proven here to the satisfaction of the most erudite observer, the following don't matter in the cast bullet world:

Powder charge weights that have any digit to the right of the decimal point other than a 5 or zero

Lubricant choice

Alloy composition, within broad ranges 

Primer choice, within reasonable ranges

Bullet sized diameter, S.T. the throat-fit requirement

Bullet design, bore ride, Loverin, Pope, Lyman old stand bys

Brass make or weight or primer pocket uniformed or flash hole deburred or neck turned precisely

in the world of five shot five group 100 yard averages between 2” and 1.5".

Since my world-rocking experience with IMR4198, I'm wondering just what the accuracy search protocol should be for a gun that is going to remain stock. This means before re-throating, bedding, bore-lapping, muzzle crowning or sending the stock out for the cryo treatment.

For, for instance, a military rifle or M700 Rem/M77 Ruger/Savage 1X/ other non-target rifle, new or used. Or a Competitor pistol.

You ended up with this rifle, you want to get it shooting cast bullets, you're a reasonably experienced reloader/caster, what do you do and in what order?

(Pat; don't help them. Can you see the article?)

Huh?

joe b.

  

 

 

  Is this meant to be funny.... or thought provoking?

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RicinYakima posted this 09 October 2007

Joe, here is my take on this broad subject:

  1. Powder charge - 0.25 grains is close enough, as long as it isn't leading

  2. Alloy - by itself, doesn't mean much

  3. Primer - if it fits in the hole, and they are all the same, use them

  4. Sized diameter - bullet has to fit the throat

  5. Style - see #4 above

  6. Brass prep - not till you are looking for 0.01” improvements

  7. Powder choice - depends on #'s 2,3,4 above

  8. Lube - I have never found any difference in accuracy, but have in how long it will shoot without cleaning before accuracy gets worse

Five 5 shot groups? Doesn't mean anything to me! Too much luck involved in 5 shot groups. Talk to me about 10 shot groups.

Here is what I do for “new to me” guns:

  1. Get all the bullet moulds for that caliber I have and make 12 or so of the best bullets, weight sorted.

  2. Size each bullet to fit the throat the best I can.

  3. Pick a “standard” cast bullet target load for that caliber.

  4. Shoot 10 shot groups to find the best two bullets.

  5. Make more of those and try 10 shot groups with at least 4 suitable powders.

  6. Using the “best” bullet, work up and down 0.5 and 1.0 grains with the two best powders.

  7. Match prep 20 cases and load best bullet and two powders and work up and down 0.1 grains for 1/2 grain.

  8. Try a couple types of primers to see in any is significantly better.

  9. Start shooting.

  10. A note on lubes: I normally avoid all discussion on bullet lubes. For everything other than match guns, I use NRA formula and clean at the end of the day. For match guns, I use Grey #24. At the end of the match I use a dry patch, and at the beginning of the next match I use one more. Then I start shooting. At the end of the year, I clean with Ed's Red and store for the winter. Next spring, I shoot 10 in the back stop and start shooting matches. 

  11. Benchrest skills: For years I helped my range and rifle club during “sight in day” for hunters, no range fees. This is everyone from tyro to Hi-Power and competitive pistol shooters. Almost none have the ability to shoot 2” groups from the bench. So it doesn't matter if the rifle will shoot into 0.1", they can't do that good. I had a Martini International Mk III that would shoot 0.1 inch groups at 50 yards. No one, who wasn't an experience benchrest shooter, ever shot better than 1"! They just didn't have the ability to do it.

Ric

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linoww posted this 10 October 2007

"For, for instance, a military rifle or M700 Rem/M77 Ruger/Savage 1X/ other non-target rifle, new or used. Or a Competitor pistol.

You ended up with this rifle, you want to get it shooting cast bullets, you're a reasonably experienced reloader/caster, what do you do and in what order?"

Use any rifle primer.

Use 13-20g of medium(ish) powders from 2400-4198.(30-30 to std mag capacity)

Pick a two diameter bullet if available (heavy for the caliber) that is as close to bore riding nose as possible without being overly large.

Lube with any commercial lube( velocities over 2000 are special deal though)

Bullets sized carefully(I like Lee push through dies) and as big as throat/neck diameter will allow.

Seat the bullet in the throat as much as possible.

Alloy can be important. Rick Bowmans buddy Joe Gifford took a 25-20 rifle and got linotype bullets to shoot well, where the same in W/W tumbled onto the target. I have gotten plain base 30 cals to shoot better in lino rather that softer lead.

Here is the most important thing-

Go shoot the load, and more that one or two groups. Shooting one or two groups and switching around is a waste of time.Dont discount the “bad day” thing and shoot the load again if it showed promise. Learn the gun peculiarities on the bags, they all are different. Run an experiment to the end. Don't switch bullets,lubes,etc..too fast you will never be able to understand what really worked. Don't be too “Horney” to clean the gun if using the same lube. See what it does first. Base theory's on range results, not the other way around.

What I am saying is shoot,shoot shoot......

 

George

(all of this works for me, but I bet everyone has as good or better theory's)

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giorgio de galleani posted this 11 October 2007

Wise advice ,that is why I like gang moulds,I get lots of good and reasonably omogeneous bullets.

So shoot a lot and get to know your rifle's quirks,

regards,Giorgio.

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joeb33050 posted this 11 October 2007

You're getting ahead of yourselves.

I think the first thing to do is to find the twist, the bore/groove sizes if possible at muzzle and breech end, and slug or cast the chamber end to know what the throat looks like.

Next is to look over reloading manuals and other info for loads/bullets.

Then select bullets from one or some or all of your molds.

Then size / bump bullets to get toward throat size The key here is that the bullet in the chamber where it would be in the ctg. shows no light coming through from the muzzle. Lube the bullets.

Pick a primer, I like LP primers for CBs. Others LR.

Get some brass. If you have the tools, blow it out, trim to length, uniform primer pockets, deburr flash holes, anneal the necks?. 

This is the kind of thing I'm looking for.

How many to load? I don't have a lot of molds, I sell the ones that don't work for me. Heres what I have.

31141 DC, 314299 DC, 311299 DC, 311299 SC, PB Custom 185 gr., 311291 GC cut off, 311241 SC, 311 NGG, have to look, but counting the cavities here are 11 possible bullets.

I think at first it may make sense to load 10-12 each and look for the WILD shooters. But I don't know.

Ric, I like 5/5 shot groups-others, like you, differ.

That's where I want to go, to know what to do when. Here's an example. We load some, shoot them, load the best ?3, shoot, keep it up until we can reliably average 5/5 shot groups 1 1/2” at 100.

What to do next. Vary hardness or size of bullets, change lube, or primers or seating depth or powder charge in .01 grain steps, or powder. All the variables affect accuracy, some more than others. We should change the biggest-effect ones first, I'm thinking. I think we will agree that changing powder will have a bigger effect than changing the charge .01 grain.

Maybe we could rank order the variables.

joe b.

 

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linoww posted this 11 October 2007

giorgio de galleani wrote: Wise advice ,that is why I like gang moulds,I get lots of good and reasonably omogeneous bullets.

So shoot a lot and get to know your rifle's quirks,

regards,Giorgio.

I have a four cavity SAECO #630 plain base .30 I love.It may not be the most accurate,but I like you shoot  alot.It helps to get used to a rifle.In my 30-06 Springer' it shoots about 1.5-2.5"at 100 yds, but it is consistant.My good GC loads do about 1.25-2.0".I try to keep a few hundred arround for the new 30 caliber rifles that seem to show up.

I dont  shoot any fewer than 50 rounds out of each rifle when I go to the range.I get those rifles all warmed up.It is too hard to make an assesment of a rifle with a bunch of trips just shooting 10-15 rounds.I have fired my 22-250 lead gun almost 1000 rounds in the last month so far.I have a near empty can of GC's to prove it.

 

Geo.

 

 

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RicinYakima posted this 11 October 2007

Joe,

Like you I have a new gun to play with: Winchester 54A in 30/06.

Any I going to slug the bore? No. Measure twist rate? No. Make a slug of the throat? Yes. That will tell me what I have to do to make each bullet fit the throat and initial seating depth. For me, that is the first order of business.

If the throat is short, I'll start with 311679, 31141 and if long 308284.

Primer? Federal LR as that is what I have a lot of right now.

Powder charge? 15.5 grains of new A2400.

Ric

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linoww posted this 12 October 2007

RicinYakima wrote: If the throat is short, I'll start with 311679, 31141 and if long 308284.

 I dont own this bullet as of yet,because I didnt realize it worked for short throated rifles.Does the 311679 have a tapered band to nose section?

 

Geo.

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RicinYakima posted this 12 October 2007

I think this was made for 308 Win throats: gas check then a short driving band, one fairly wide lube groove, wider driving band, than a 1 1/2 degree taper to about 0.301. Nose size seems to vary between 0.300 and 0.302 depending upon mould. HTH, Ric

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CB posted this 13 October 2007

Geo.,

I like the 311679 because of the taper instead of a drive band, since I also like the MX4. Mine doesn't work in my old rifles because of the .300” nose.  I need .301” and .302", but I think it would work good with just about any new throat in 30 calibers.................Dan

see:  http://www.castbulletassoc.org/forum/view_topic.php?id=391&forum_id=10>http://www.castbulletassoc.org/forum/viewtopic.php?id=391&forumid=10

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PETE posted this 15 October 2007

 Joe,

  I see you're stirring the pot again. :)

  I'm working on a stock .30Govt06 Win. Mod. 70, pre 64 right now. It's getting down below 1” on a regular basis now, but it's been a chore getting there.

 Lets go over your points in your first message. Of course you check the gun over for bore, & groove diam.  at tthe muzzle and in front of the throat, plus the throat diam. I see you mention these in your 2nd message but not the first so I thought I'd throw them in.

Powder charge - I try two or three known clean burning powders in that cal. Seems I always end up going to IMR 4227. .2 gr. does make a difference in accuracy.

  Lube - I KNOW you aren't that forgetful. The test I ran for you a while back shows lube can be a very decisive factor.

  Bullet alloy - It does make a difference. With the above gun I found that a 50/50 Lino/WW shoots a bit better than straight range scrap. In Schuetzen it can make a major difference.

 Primer choice - In the above gun I halved the groups just by going from Win LR to CCI 200 primers.

  Bullet size - For fixed ammo I go with the throat fit theory. For breech seated Schuetzen I go with approx. .0015-.002” over groove size.

  Bullet design - To some extent you're right. Most of the “oldies” do ok. But most guns will prefer one over another. The above gun likes the Lyman 311334 (aka 308334) and not the Lyman 311291.

  Brass - Personally I don't fool with that since factory chambers can't utilize all the things you can do to “even” it up .

  Average end result group size - I won't settle for anything less than a long term average of 1” for 5 shot groups. Around 1 1/2” for 10 shot groups.

PETE

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linoww posted this 15 October 2007

"Primer choice - In the above gun I halved the groups just by going from Win LR to CCI 200 primers"

I have been using the MAGTECH 9-1/2 Brazilian(?) primers recently.Cheaper and pretty uniform from what I have seen.Standard Dev's are fantastic.Shot them in the 30-30,30-06,22-250 and 45-70 with good results.

"Lube -The test I ran for you a while back shows lube can be a very decisive factor."

I agree on lube.I just switched lubes in my 22-250 and my grouping is better and the thing “settles down" much faster.

I think Joe,s search for the "Magic Formula" is experience and range time. You get one from the other.

 

Geo.

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linoww posted this 17 October 2007

I have an atricle by Frank Marshall form a 1982 Fouling Shot .that I think it is a good basic anwser to what you have asked.I can scan it and send it along if anybody wants to read it.Maybe the CBA has a copy that can be posted??

 

It is a real classic

 

George

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CB posted this 04 November 2007

Here's the 100 yard ladder test, yesterday, 100 yards, clear and windy.

joe b.

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CB posted this 05 November 2007

Here's a better picture of the ladder test, I'm no photographer.

Loring Hall advised me to let targets sit for a while, settle down, then examine them. It took me a couple of days to see the lesson here.

joe b.

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linoww posted this 05 November 2007

Joe Brennan wrote: Here's a better picture of the ladder test, I'm no photographer.

Loring Hall advised me to let targets sit for a while, settle down, then examine them. It took me a couple of days to see the lesson here.

joe b.

What is the lesson??

George

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CB posted this 05 November 2007

George;

Copy the picture, make it bigger if you wish, and look at it several times over the next day or so. My initial response was that it did not work, maybe me or the wind or most likely, 100 yards was too short. I was wrong.

See if you get the same answer that I did. PM me, I'm checking on me here.

joe b.

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linoww posted this 05 November 2007

I plotted them as seperate groups per powder charge.See attached picture.All I see is a bunch of three shot groups slowly “sort” of raising up as the charge is upped.I dont know how fast they were shot  or other data to take a guess at what has happened.

 

Geo.

 

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billwnr posted this 05 November 2007

I thought Audette did the ladder test at 300 yards to get better separation between the bullets.

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