Hi all,
With no disrespect to all of the great lubes available, I have in my possesion the best ever bullet/bore lube. It is not my formula, I have never made any lube. How can one find out what is in a lube and how to duplicate the recipe? The inventor took the formula to his grave. Any and all help is appreciated.
Roy
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Well Roy What lube is it, the formula may be floating around here in cyberspace. As for finding out what is in it. A mass spectrometer might be able to tell you this. It is reverse engineering. However it could be very costly.
I have experimented for about 2 years with making lubes, looking for the coup de gras of bullet lube.
Most bullet lube has a base wax, such as paraffin or bees wax.
Then there is some type of lubricant oil or grease.
Some add caranuba, some add stp or some other type of ingredients to achive a desired effect.
Then you need a binding agent. In days of old and even still used today is Ivory soap. The ingredient in the ivory that is needed as the binder is sodium stearate.
The real trick is to figure out how much of each to use. Then you have to figure out in what order to add the ingredients, how hot to cook it, how long to cook it, etc...
For instance, contrary to how some folks do it, if I were to put caranuba wax in my lube, I would melt that first because it is a hard wax and it would leave small globs of unmelted wax in your mix if you add it last.
One thing to be very mindful of is this, when you make lube, you have to usually heat it to the ragged edge of combustion. This means it is gonna smoke. You have to do this in order to get all of the ingredient to blend together so they do not separate when it cools down. The sodium stearate helps with this.
Some recipes call for you to allow the lube to cool in the cook pot to check if it separates.
One other thing to mention... This is not an activity you want to try in the house, especially if you are married! Trust me here.
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Here is a link to an old discussion on Felix's Lube that may help you.
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I made my own lube for many years, used a lot of different recipes, and finally settled on 50/50 Alox/beeswax. I was running low, and after researching the cost and hassle of buying Alox and beeswax, I decided it was easier to buy it premade from Lars45 of the castboolits forum. For $30, I received 18 sticks of his BAC (beeswax, Alox, and Carnuba) lube. I haven't used any of it yet, but it gets rave reviews from those that have.
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The name of the product is BEST LUBE. It was made by George Forest in Shandaken, New York until the mid sixties. On many occasions I have seen him bite, chew and swallow his lube, a testament to its non toxic nature. Mr Forest lived 99 years. The base ingredient is vegtable oil. The lube will remove lead deposits from a fouled bore simply by firing rounds with this lube on them. My intention is to save the formula from disappearence, I have many hundred sticks still and am a senior citizen. There may be plenty to last my lifetime. BEST LUBE is what I have used for over forty years exclusevly. Some of the sticks are over sixty years old and good as new, except for the paper wrappers. Rather than having to disclose his recipe, he chose to have no part of the patent process. To my knowledge, no one has been able to duplicate this lube. I would welcome expertise in examining and testing of this product, pm me. Thanks for your interest.
Roy
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Roy,
I was thinking of Olive Oil as a part of the formula. Any thoughts of using olive oil?
Thanks,
Jerry
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Hey Jerry; I don't know, I myself have never made lube. The price of the lube was always very inexpensive. When I first began buying it, the cost was 35 cents a stick. The last sticks I bought were in the late eighties for 65 cents a stick. After smelling both the oil and the lube, I don't think so. Good thought, thanks. Roy
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Umm. Never tried it for bullet lube, but I'd recommend you be careful with it. Not only could it weep out of your lube on hot days, but it's the stuff I put on iron skillets to season them with a hard coating. You just might get the worst case of adherent fouling you ever saw. Mebby not, but be on the lookout for problems. Good luck.
Molly
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Molly,
Thanks, I have been thinking of Safflower oil and use steric acide or ivory soap as a thickener or hardener.
Jerry
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I have been thinking of Safflower oil and use steric acide or ivory soap as a thickener or hardener.
Jerry Jerry,
I have the same concerns about Safflower oil, as well as canola, etc: Most natural vegetable oils will form a hard varnish with sufficient heat - and it takes far less heat than is developed in firing a gun! Granted, the time in shooting a round is very brief, but still ... Not in MY guns.
Stearic acid is another matter entirely. Despite the concerns of some because of its name, it is NOT significantly corrosive to barrel metals. When not melted, it is a dry, hard solid that could contribute to proper consistency. When melted, it makes a good wetting agent and dispersant, so it COULD be effective in holding other ingredients in solution. It is inexpensive, and it is used industrially as a good lubricant. Ivory Soap is reportedly 'mostly' stearic acid, so it may work well also. However, I'd be concerned about what's in Ivory besides stearic acid, and Ivory is MUCH more expensive than commercial Stearic acid.
That said, let me toss in another caveat: Because bullet 'lubricants' have traditionally used the same types of ingredients as machinery lubricants, it is traditional to think of them as performing the same function (ie, lubrication). Nothing could be further from the truth. Lead will not wear off on steel, and needs no lubrication. Period. In fact, lead alloys (babbit) are used as lubricants for steel. If you doubt this, I invite you to try to get lead to adhere to steel by any method that doesn't involve melting the lead and soldering it to the steel. Think about how many times air rifles are fired at velocities between 700 and 1000 fps without lubricants - and without leading too!
So-called 'lubricants' are really contaminants for the surface of the steel, that prevent lead from adhering. That's why plumbers sand the ends of copper plumbing that they are joining: To remove any surface contamination, and allow the solder to wet the copper... or steel. Most soldering fluxes either etch the metal to provide a fresh surface, or they dissolve any traces of oils and keep oxygen from the surface while it is being wet by the solder. Lubricants melt from the gunpowder flames and spread out on the surface of the bore, making it difficult for the lead to stick. That's all they do. Better lubes spread (wet) better, and don't harden up from the heat. the best lubes do this while being soft enought to apply easily, without melting in the summer sun. But they are NOT lubricants.
HTH, Molly
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Molly,
I do accept your points. I have seen where lead has been soldered to steel, but that is when you are trying to do that. I am starting lean in to synthetic lubes. I own a small farm and grease the tractor and implements with Vavoline SynPower all the time have seen longer life out of many joints and bearings.
I get a really good prices on greases and fluids for the farm, so maybe they may work for bullet lubes mixed with ALOX or Beeswax or both.
The Safflower oil and the Olive Oil is around the house because I like to cook.
Any thoughts on the synthetics?
Jerry
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Molly,
I do accept your points. I have seen where lead has been soldered to steel, but that is when you are trying to do that. I am starting lean in to synthetic lubes. I own a small farm and grease the tractor and implements with Vavoline SynPower all the time have seen longer life out of many joints and bearings.
I get a really good prices on greases and fluids for the farm, so maybe they may work for bullet lubes mixed with ALOX or Beeswax or both.
The Safflower oil and the Olive Oil is around the house because I like to cook.
Any thoughts on the synthetics?
Jerry
Frankly, I suspect that the 'ultimate' bullet lube may take the form of - or at least contain - a synthetic oil, grease or low MW polyester: As a class, they are far less subject to thermal or oxidative degradation, and are - in all probability - far better choices for mixing with hardners like stearic acid than vegetable oils. I have not revisited bullet lubes in something like 20 years or so, and a lot of advances have taken place since then. If I were to get back into it, I think I would start with some commonly available solid synthetic surfactants- and there are enough of them to keep your grandchildren busy!
One little trick I developed to sidestep any slow deposit formation in the bore was to simply see if a surfactant or polyester would leave a hard deposit when it was heated enough. You'd be amazed how many products are just a solution of something hard in a slow evaporating solvent or light oil. I just took a hotplate and covered it with foil. When it was hotter than blazes, I'd drop a pinch of material on the surface and watch it. Almost everything would bubble up and boil to one extent or another. Most would end up leaving a hard brown char to one extent or another. A few would evaporate away entirely, but not many. Those - and the ones which left almost no char, I kept for further development. And a VERY few would remain liquid, even at the highest temperature the hotplate could reach, which was well above the melting point of lead. The most stable materials were then judged by how well they spread out on the aluminum. The best of these were then tested by polishing a bit of steel to bright white metal, and placing a bit beside a lead chip. If the lube material could prevent the lead from soldering to the steel, then I'd try it out in my rifles. No magic, nothing fancy, no expensive lab equipment, just pragmatic common sense.
(FYI: Most of the various Alox compounds are what you might call 'pre-oxidized' (ie, pre-burnt) greases and oils. They are made by oxidizing selected compounds under highly controlled conditions.)
As far as soldering only 'when you want to', if you're a successful farmer, you are far too realistic to think that things happen only when you want them to. A single broken axle on a bailer that has hit a groundhog hole will convince anyone of that. Things will happen when the conditions are right, whether we want them to or not! And I speak from sad and bitter experience! (VBG). Soldering (leading) will happen when the hot gas blow-by etches molten droplets off the edges and sides of a cast bullet and drives them hard against the bore. Or more precicely, it will happen when the load is hot enough to lower the surface tension of the lead droplets enough to overcome the wetting of the bullet lube.
BTW, I see you are located in Ohio. Anywhere remotely near Cincinnati?
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Molly,
I used to live in the Columbus area, Westerville to exact. Now I live in Somerton, nears Barnesville, in Eastern Ohio. I am 30 minutes away from Wheeling WV.
But I wil be gone all day with the kids I teach.
Have a great one,
Jerry
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Hi Molly; This lube I am chasing will leave deposits from use and it does take on a black color but it does not become as soot. The deposits are still similar in consistancy to the host source. The color appears mostly from burnt powder residue. Five firearms of mine are original new acquisitions of between eight and forty years old. Of these, none have ever had a metal brush through them. The forty year old flattop won back to back state in 2003 and 2004, a testament to Ruger and this lube. Sorry, I don't mean to sound like a salesman, I really am not trying to sell this stuff, just figure out how to avoid loosing it. Any and all help is appreciated. Thanks. Roy
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Hi Roy,
I replied yesterday, but somehow it didn't get through. I'll try to summarize.
I tried to google the data about your lube, but all I got was our current discussion.
I have only one suggestion for you. Get an appropriate phone book (maybe whitepages.com) and look up his name. It may stil be listed simply because his widow didn't want to go to the trouble of changing the entry, or because it would be the final curtain (emotionally) for her husband. (I've repeatedly seen both of these reactions among my family and friends.) At the very least, you may find children or other relatives.
Call and explain how much you liked his lube, and ask if he had the formula written down somewhere, and if it would be possible to get a copy of it.
If that doesn't work, I think you're outta luck.
HTH, Molly
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Hey Molly; The family line does have a trail, but I had let it lie for just a bit too long. George Forest was a friend of my family and we know the decendents but the disposal of his estate happened many years back. Another CBA member has pitched in with a spectrometer report, my hope is to unravel the formula in reverse. I'm going to give it a good effort. Wish me luck, I'll need it. Roy
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... Another CBA member has pitched in with a spectrometer report, my hope is to unravel the formula in reverse. I'm going to give it a good effort. Wish me luck, I'll need it.
Roy
Yes, you sure will. I have some experience at back-formulating from GC, IR and spectrometer data. They'll identify general classes of material pretty reliably, but ID of specific ingredients is shaky - at best. Then you have to come up with 'How Much' data. And the guy who tells you he can calculate it from analytical data may have been taught some theory, but he sure hasn't spent much time in the real world.
Nonetheless, if it CAN be done, that's the only approach that will get you there at all. Who knows, you may even come up with something even better! I've seen it happen. Good luck.
Molly
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Hey Molly; We got the report yesterday and have begun to piece together the elemental compounds. BEST-LUBE has some devoted users with a very diverse educational background. This thing is coming together nicely. Several of the compounds are easy to recgonize for our chemical engineer. That along with some clever history detective work, have already brought much of the formula to light. The more we learn, the easier it seems to get. My excitement at our progress is very high and I am semi paitently waiting for an opportunity to attempt to brew some. Empirical trials will be our only true method of reproducing the formula and we intend to do just that. When we are successful, the formula will be released to the public in George Forests behalf. Thanks for your interest. Roy
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Glad to hear it, Roy. I doubt if you will ever reproduce the formula EXACTLY, but you may come close enough for practical purposes. And who knows? Maybe any slight differences will be for the good, and make your version even better.
Good Luck!
Molly
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Let me know and I will donate to the Georgia Forests.
Jerry
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Hey Jerry; We will sure let you know if we can get this thing sorted out. Say, weren't you sposed to be out back making sure your barn cats didn't turn into somethings dinner? Roy
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