I have been reading alot of old stuff on the muzzlestuffer guns of the past.I am thinking about buying one to play with and wonder what to buy.caliber,make etc.. I really like the Whitworth copies,but not the $1000 price!!I am looking for the bargain gun that shoots well.The “Savage 12 of muzzleloaders".No modern inlines, I prefer traditional types.Rounball or conicals considered. George
"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!
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:cba:George; Id look at the t/c or lylman traditional rifles. The people I have met talk about pretty good accuracy. Brodie
B.E.Brickey
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George,
Get a hold of smokyjoe on the forum and pm him and then call him to see what he has to say. I think it'd be worth the phone call. Smokyjoe is an old champion muzzleloader shooter. He builds his own rifles yet. There'd be too much to talk about it on the forum, but if you do this, you could give us an outline of the info?...................Dan
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Thanks for the contact info.I have been readingn about the old Billinghurst,Lowe,etc. rifles and the such and have gotten the “bug".
George
"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!
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I do not know if there is such as thing as a bargain rifle that shoots well anymore as the prices have gone up considerably. An excellent source for purchasing a traditional rifle is through Dixie Gunworks or Track of the Wolf, both on the web. Tradition arms makes a few inexpensive rifles that may get you started. Both the TC “Hawken" and the Lyman Great Plains or the Trade rfle are good choices. The Whitworth and Billinghursts and that type of rifle were specially made to shoot elongated bullets and are very expensive. This type of rifle appeared in the mid 1800's and lasted up to the late 1800's into the early cartridge era. Another rifle of this type is advertised in Cabela's at about $1500. The typical traditional rifle was used with patched round ball and works very well out to about 100 yards or a little better depending on the wind and your ability to shoot iron sights. With round ball you get more range with larger bores such as the 50's or 54's. Another type of rifle you may be able to pick up is the military rifled mucket in 58 that shoots minnie's, another slug. these are not inexpensive, but I believe I saw a Zouave in Dixie at a reasonable price. Round balls will outshoot a minnie but either is accurate enough for hunting. Most of the clubs that sponsor matches are still traditional. I have built several rifles for myself and others through the years and have also found that an enjoyable past-time.
Mnshooter
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the Lyman Great Plains or the Trade rfle are good choices.
Alot of people seem to lke the Lyman rifles.I will take a close look at them.
The Whitworth and Billinghursts and that type of rifle were specially made to shoot elongated bullets and are very expensive. This type of rifle appeared in the mid 1800's and lasted up to the late 1800's into the early cartridge era. Another rifle of this type is advertised in Cabela's at about $1500.
I read lot about the old target guns,but really cant afford what i really want.I cant imagine what a Gove,Billinghurst,etc would sell for.I looked at the Whitworth replicas and cant stomach the $ for an Italian gun.I had a Pedersoli 58 side by side that was a real piece of (well you know)It never regulated,springs broke and at the time (10 years ago) i had trouble getting parts for it from the distributor.I am afraid of the Italian stuff till this day.
Another type of rifle you may be able to pick up is the military rifled mucket in 58 that shoots minnie's, another slug. these are not inexpensive, but I believe I saw a Zouave in Dixie at a reasonable price.
I had an Italian Zouave and really it was a good rifle.It just didnt shoot that well at lower end of things and at the high end beat me up a bit.I wont say recoil scares me,i just dont shoot as well for long strings with heavy recoil guns.My 35 Whelen kicks,but I only shoot it to hunt. My “toy” guns get shot alot and I dont want to get beat up playing arround.
A buddy has a mule ear type lock 40# roundball “chunk gun” i think he calls it.I believe it shoots near 1” at 100 but dont quote me on that.This is scoped of course.
George
"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!
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Since you are a bit recoil sensitive I would suggest that you take care concerning the Lyman Great Plains Hunter. It is rifled for elongated bullets but has a narrow curved butt-plate that may get your attention with that type of load. The 54 is a reasonable gun to shoot and is accurate with a variety of charges, will not kick as much as your 35 Whelen with hunting loads and is quite popular around my neck of the woods for a round ball deer gun. Those that use them like them. There is nothing wrong with a 50 RB as it will work well on targets and deer sized game also. I broke a frizzen spring on my 54 flintlock and ended up shooting a deer with my 50 percussion with no problem. Patched round balls are very accurate depending upon the combination and I believe that a well made chunk gun could shoot a 1 inch group. The Friendship buffalo target had to have two bulls at 50 yards so that all five shots could be counted as the groups were very small. For targets I liked a thinner patch and a larger round ball, for hunting a little smaller round ball and a thicker patch for eace of loading out of the loading blocks. For a 50 that would be 495 for targets, 490 for hunting. I now shoot swaged balls as I ran out of pure lead. Good luck have fun.
Mnshooter
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would suggest that you take care concerning the Lyman Great Plains Hunter. It is rifled for elongated bullets but has a narrow curved butt-plate that may get your attention with that type of load. The 54 is a reasonable gun to shoot and is accurate with a variety of charges, will not kick as much as your 35 Whelen with hunting loads and is quite popular around my neck of the woods for a round ball deer gun. Those that use them like them. There is nothing wrong with a 50 RB as it will work well on targets and deer sized game also. I broke a frizzen spring on my 54 flintlock and ended up shooting a deer with my 50 percussion with no problem. Patched round balls are very accurate depending upon the combination and I believe that a well made chunk gun could shoot a 1 inch group. The Friendship buffalo target had to have two bulls at 50 yards so that all five shots could be counted as the groups were very small. For targets I liked a thinner patch and a larger round ball, for hunting a little smaller round ball and a thicker patch for eace of loading out of the loading blocks. For a 50 that would be 495 for targets, 490 for hunting. I now shoot swaged balls as I ran out of pure lead. Good luck have fun.
Mnshooter Since you are a bit recoil sensitive . No,just honest.
I am not afraid of recoil,I just only tolerate it in hunting rifles.I can shoot 458's and 416 Rigbys all day,just not near a well as a 22 Hornet!!
I am kind of leaning toward a Lyman GP(not hunter) 54 roundball gun.I found a new one locally for $369.00.I have a buddy that says 2” groups with adjusted loads at 100 are not all that uncommon.My neighboor shot alot of feral hogs with an Ithica 54 flint and it always impressed me as being as effective as my 7mm-08 up to 100 yds.He let his kids shoot a Tingle? .45 capper in camp that was a blast to knock the steel gongs with at 100.
I now shoot swaged balls as I ran out of pure lead. Good luck have fun.
I probably will buy swaged roundballs.I have some pure lead but as many rounds as i would shoot it wouldnt be woth buying a mold.I can see no advantage to casting what I can already buy and probably with better uniformity.The whole patch thickness things sounds like all cast shooting,its in the small details!!
Thanks for the input.
George
"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!
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George,
For a factory rifle, I've always liked the looks of the Lyman's, but never did buy one. Without getting into a custom ML, I think that would be a good choice. I think Lyman makes a 57 Receiver sight for it and a front globe, which would be great for a target rifle. Screw out the rear aperture and then go hunting with it if you like.
If you wanted a more traditional kind of rear sight, I think you could find a short ladder sight to adapt for the rear maybe from Dixie, but would probably have to have a taller front globe? I have a H&A .45 with a front globe soldered to a dovetail base (adapted) with a rear buckhorn that lines up real well with a front blade insert. It shoots 2” groups at 100yds and I think most modern factory repros ought to. If'in you'd bed the tang real good I'm sure that'd help, but I don't know about bedding a ML barrel to the forend? The accurate powder for the BPCR shooters is Swiss from what I hear. That ought to make a good powder for the ML, too?..............Dan
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If'in you'd bed the tang real good I'm sure that'd help, but I don't know about bedding a ML barrel to the forend?
A BR shooter at our range did the “lug” and some bedding on the forend of his Lyman Great Plains and there was an impovement.I dont believe he pressure pointed it,just put a a few pads here and there to dampen the wood from rattling.This is the gun that shoots 2” in calm weather with roundballs.
I friend has set of the Lyman 57 ML sight with a #17 front if i decide to go with the Lyman rifle.it is starting to point in that direction!
George
"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!
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Muzzleloaders generally use a softer steel in their barrels and do not seem to be as fussy (generally speaking some one will claim an exception) about bedding and that sort of thing. While I do not know if they are still doing it, one little trick I learned about production guns is that they use a short trigger adjusting screw so that you cannot over adjust the trigger (meaning that you cannot get a light trigger pull) if the one you pick up is like that you can likely buy one in a hardware store that is longer and will adjust. Many shooting matches do not permit the more complex Lyman sights in competition. I have always felt that not permitting peep sights of some sort was a test of eye-sight and not shooting ability. For just fun shooting go for it. A good rule of thumb for ML loads is to use about 1/2 the ball weight of powder for hunting loads and cut back for target. I use about 110 grains of 2-f in my 54 for hunting and lighter charges, such as 70-80 grains for close range targets. Some have had good luck with 90 of 3-f for hunting. The folks at the Longrifle forum mostly have used Swiss in ML's and gone back to GOEX. Swiss seems to dominate BPC competition. I have never used it as it is not readily available where I live but GOEX is. Swiss costs more. Have fun.
MNshooter
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George:
Like everything else, you pretty much get what you pay for and it all depends on what you want to do with the gun. I have been building Hawken pattern ML's and shooting them for 9-10yrs or so and thought I would pass on a few things. These are all round ball guns.
I would stay away from these “cheaper” Italian ML's. The barrels are only half of the problem. The other is the lock. While one may have a decent shooting tube, the locks that I have seen are usually junk. I bought a Cabelas Hawken several years ago and with some work on the barrel, it shoots pretty good. But the lock is not and not much can be done except to replace it with American made.
The Lyman's that I have seen have good quality locks and barrels, Several guys that I know shoot them regularly in matches and do well. The price that you mentioned for that new Lyman sounds pretty good given the exchange rate these days
My goal for the guns that I build is 1” five shot groups at fifty yds mainly because that's all the further I can see anymore with open sights. And the following has been successful so far given a good barrel, proper loading etc.
I fit or bed the barrel, breach and tang so that they have full even contact all around both at the breach end and the fore end. The rear of the breach plug (recoil lug) must have full and even contact with the abutment in the stock so that it will take the full recoil. The tang is fitted so that there is no contact with the wood at it's tip. And then relieve the bottom barrel flat from a couple of inches ahead of the breach end to within and inch or so of the fore end tip. This relief is only a few thousands. The result is that the stock holds the metal parts solidly with no chance of the barrel rocking on the bottom flat of the wood. The center of the barrel is then supported by the two oblique flats of the stock. The barrel keys will have just enough tension to secure the barrel in the stock firmly and keep themselves from working out.
In a ML rifle, I have found that even bedding of the tang is vital if any accuracy is to be expected. And a rifle that shoots fine groups can be turned into a scattergun fast if there is any abnormal downward tension put on the tang by the screw. So that's why it is necessary to make sure that the tang and barrel fit naturally, evenly and solidly in the wood without any uneven pressure anywhere. I have never been concerned with using pressure points any where because none have ever been needed to get the gun shooting good groups. In my experience, if the gun doesn't group, it's always been something else.
RD
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Thanks Mnshooter and R. Dupraz. I'm not big into MLs, but appreciate the info to tweak them right. I've got 3 basket cases to put together, repair stocks etc.
R. Dupraz. When bedding a solid breech-bolt tang, I understand to relieve the wood behind the top tang piece, but do you relieve underneath the tang behind the bolt area or is that bedded solid like behind a recoil lug like you mentioned? If you do not want any pressure points, I guess the thing to do would be to bed the whole tang and barrel assembly at once with the tenons in, but no tang screw. That's an interesting concept to relieve the bottom flat. Probably a single layer of masking tape on the barrel's bottom flat during bedding would be enough clearance when later removed................Dan
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Dan:
In answer to your questions reference bedding the tang. I assume the bolt you talk about is the tang bolt?
The tang not only secures the entire barrel assembly at the rear but also helps to prevent torqing when the gun is fired. So, I make sure that the bottom of the tang has full contact with it's mortise and bedded with no stress, either side-ways or up and down. I'll then drill the tang bolt hole a little oversize so that even though it will be tightened down, there will be no sideways pressure on it and it can move a mite. And wood does move. The only place that I want to take the recoil is behind the breach plug itself.
Any more, I inlet the barrel with the breach plug attached. When there is a hooked plug, I'll solder it together. Then the whole thing is inletted as a unit. I've done it with the plug and barrel separated but for me, it's easier to get everything straight and level in the wood when they are together. And yes, the barrel loops or tenons are attached.
Which brings up another point. The barrel loops or tenons also need a little clearance, front and back so that if the wood moves, they won't bind. This can also open up the groups. As will the barrel keys or pins when they bind against the inside of the tenons.
I am talking from the aspect of building from a blank, however, all these things can be checked and fixed on an existing gun as well. And if bedding with Accra-Glass or some such, tape on the bottom flat works fine to gain some relief or where ever you want it.
As you probably have already surmised, I try to have the barrel and tang set securely in the stock with no undue stress anywhere. And the barrel is supported in kind of a V-block system within the stock by virtue of the two bottom oblique flats.
RD
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I will not disagree with Mr. Dupraz as I do many of the things he states when building a rifle to allow for stock movement with humidity changes. Before you spend a lot of time trying to accurize your ML, shoot it a while as you may not need to do all that. It may well shoot ok out of the box once you find a load. You will run into all kinds of recommendations and alchemy concerning patch lubes, patch thickness and charging. Part of the fun. A lot of people like to use spit, I always ran out on hot days. Some like to use a mallet to short start the ball, I preferred a looser combination that did not deform the ball as much. One thing in addition I do strongly recommend is to get a loading rod with a muzzle protector to avoid ramrod wear at the muzzle. Other sources have pointed out that the mountain men used to carry a heavier rod inside the bore of the gun for loading and cleaning as well as the regular ramrod. Do not use hardware store dowel rods as they have a tendency to break and may stick your hand. Hopefully you will get the enjoyment out of the black powder experience that I have.
Mnshooter
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Do not use hardware store dowel rods as they have a tendency to break and may stick your hand.
Back in the 70s, I got all fired up shooting MLs. I liked Mike Nessbit's articles. I read somewhere about treating wood ramrods by soaking them in kerosene. I ordered a packet of ramrod dowels from Dixie Guns works and made a tube of PVC pipe to soak the ramrod dowels in. They sat down in the barn junk for a few 2 or 3 years when I forgot about them. I dug them out and let them air dry a few days. I grabbed one of the dowels and bent it and it didn't break, but stayed crooked as a crescent moon! I bent it back and it was fairly straight again. I could almost bend it into a U shape and it would not break. Sure worked great!.............Dan
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RD & Mnshooter
Here are a couple of the ML projects I have. I inherited these a year ago in a big box of stuff. Got the parts separated to the right rifles and got the breech plugs out. Going to clean the parts up good and will have to make a few new pieces. All in all it's going to be a fun thing.
Thanks again for your pointers. :dude: .....................Dan
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cheap way out, pick up a TC hawken or renegade and put a green mtn. barrel on it and your choice of sights. I have a old hawken with a GM .40 cal barrel with target sights and it will shoot closer than I can hold it. 71 and old eyes are about shot.
its a heavy gun but I don't do much toteing anymore.
TTC
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DAn have fun with the restoration. I am currently working on restoring a 16 gauge ML shotgun I bought at an auction. Got it cheap as they sold it for a wallhanger. The parts were in good enough order to buy it for parts if nothing else. It appears to be Applacian in style with a wooden trigger guard hand rail. The stock was in two pieces and the underpinning thimble gone. A few other little things to tweak like adding wood to the stock. I have to have my daughter teach me how to send pictures as she has the camera and the know how. I got left in the dust awhile back on computer technology.
Mnshooter
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Ya Rd,
The big rifle has a 42” barrel 1.8” to 1.3” at the muzzle in .45 cal. The name on the barrel and the lock looks like L Lordner Lancaster Pa
The smaller rifle has a 40” barrel .900” to .850” at the muzzle in .32 cal. The name on the barrel looks like G Martin The lock is hard to make out with something like H sewell Warranted G Martin in engraved with scroll into a bronze plate on top the barrel with bronze swirls inletted down the length of the top of the barrel. Nice :D
Don't know anything about them at all. Both have drum style nipples and can't tell anything if they'd been converted, but don't look like it. The 45 has the nipple on the breech plug and the 32 has the nipple on the barrel................Dan
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Don. I would suggest going to the American Longrifles site which has a collectors section. My research has not been in collectibles but in books and view of the more popular longrifles for reproduction purposes. Should you have questions concerning a few tricks for restoration I have had some experience and can help to some extent. I would suggest first asking whether the parts are not more useful untouched than put back together. I got burned once on a collectible and decided to leave to those with more knowledge of values since then. I have bought original parts and such for repair and construction of new rifles or shotguns and am presently restoring what I think is an appalacian shotgun. It is unmarked and has little value and my restoration is leaving it as is outwardly. Someone else screwed up a few little things that I have to descrew.
Mnshooter
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