Weighing And Uniforming Cases

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Last Post 17 April 2008

Match Director

linoww posted this 11 April 2008

I use new Win or RP cases.I typically trim to length, deburr flash holes,and maybe cut the pockets with a Sinclair tool.I do not weigh or neck turn at all.I see some people do all the BR tricks on their cases. About weighing cases,I am curious if the typical 1/4 case capacity 2400 loads being sensitive to small internal volumes.If case weight segregation gains 1/4 MOA I would say its worth it,any less maybe not and would be hard to prove.I do “weed out” cases that chamber hard or have different neck tension should I find one.I may even mark a case that give me a “flyer” I cant explain.With our loose military chambers does neck turning make it sloppier, I dont know?

I am curious if anyone has spent the time to do a detailed test to see if it made enough difference in our old military guns?I know it cant hurt,but is it just "loading-ritual"?

I admit to not being a “bullet weigher” type either,so I am probably biased toward simplicity.I am a simple guy.

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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Standard Member

CB posted this 11 April 2008

George

Military chambers are not a whole lot different than factory chamber dimensions. The big difference is a lot of the milsurps rifles have been shot a lot more than typical hunting factory rifles.

When neck turning seemed to get popular about 10-15 years ago, I tested it in my 220 Swift with jacketed loads. No difference in accuracy and lessened case life because of over worked necks from blowing out in loose factory chambers and then sizing down to hold tension on the bullet. A rightful lesson.

Cast bullet shooting in milsurp or factory chambers is not any different. Neck turning should only be done in 'tight-necked' match chambers. Uniform neck tension is achieved with a correct neck sizing method, an S-die or a collect sizing die. The BR tight-neck shooters probably only gain say 1/16 MOA by turning their necks. The main reason is to fit their chambers to correct diameter.

I just tested neck turning again with about 15 cases in my Springfield cause I was having problems. That was not the problem. Save over working your brass and ruining the necks and leave the necks as thick as possible..............My view.............Dan

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CBA Member

billwnr posted this 11 April 2008

You could bite the bullet and order 100 Lapua cases if you are shooting a .30/06. There isn't much case care that needs to be done to them other than neck chamfering.

They are nice and thick and are about .014-.015 in thickness.

Dan and I both use Lapua.

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Match Director

linoww posted this 11 April 2008

I tested it in my 220 Swift with jacketed loads. No difference in accuracy and lessened case life because of over worked necks from blowing out in loose factory chambers and then sizing down to hold tension on the bullet. A rightful lesson.

I did the same thing with a Ruger #1 in Swift with exactly the results you had.But I was younger and had just caught the BR loading bug.My feeling about neck turning is to fit a tight chamber like you say.

I am most curious about weighed cases accuracy difference in the big cases.

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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Standard Member

CB posted this 11 April 2008

I remember Norm Deusterhoeft wrote an article a couple of years ago in The Fouling Shot about weighing and sorting cases. It was quite a thorough explanation. Rick Bowman also wrote an excellent article last year in the F/S about brass preparation for military competition. Another thorough explanation.

Like my buddy Bill says, “just by Lapua and compete.” I never could develop a good weigh/sort system for other brass. If I had light ones or heavy ones, I would always wonder where and what the condition was to cause the discrepancy. I often considered case volume to have more of an affect towards accuracy, but there is not a good or easy way to find exact volume discrepancies. But who knows? That's why your question is posted here on the forum and somebody may have the answer?.................Dan

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Match Director

linoww posted this 14 April 2008

Dan Willems wrote: I remember Norm Deusterhoeft wrote an article a couple of years ago in The Fouling Shot about weighing and sorting cases. It was quite a thorough explanation. Rick Bowman also wrote an excellent article last year in the F/S about brass preparation for military competition. Another thorough explanation. I understand the theory just fine Dan.I don't argue about it making a difference in my 6BR or 30 BR tight chambered bench rifles.I cant prove it every time,but i do shoot better groups with my sorted and uniformed cases.But I use Lapua cases,so not much to sort<G>I agree Bill Warner on the Lapua cases for sure! And Rics article didn't really compare non uniformed cases to uniformed ones.I think his skills on the bench and careful loading and casting and not the weighed cases is why he did well at the Nationals. But if I were him i wouldn't change a thing because its working.My point is do people do it for piece of mind or can anyone prove statistically that it matters?

I'll dig up Norms article and read it again.

I personally think in the sloppy chambered military guns weighing may be a “ritual” as long as you use cases from the same lot ,be it commercial or US military cases.

I am going to weigh a bunch of cases and shoot 5 “good” against 5 “bad" next week and see what I can find out in a 1.5-2 MOA modified iron sight gun.I'll shoot five 10 shot groups with each at 100.I'll load at the bench with each lot to keep it uniform.I'll find out if it matters in my rifle at least.

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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CBA Member

billwnr posted this 14 April 2008

The difference between weighed/unweighed and turned/not turned cases are small enough the difference won't show in shooting a couple of 5 shot groups.

It might make the difference in shooting a 9 close to the line that would have been a little closer and plugged as a 10 at a match where it made a difference.

I'm one of those who weighs cases, uniforms necks, uniforms primer pockets and weighs bullets for my loads.

I don't think my efforts make all that much of a difference but I do think it reduces the chance of unexplained flyers that some shooters have. I also think it's a good routine that instills confidence when competing.

I think this makes a difference shooting at 100 yards but at 200 yards reading the wind makes more of a difference.

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CBA Member

billwnr posted this 14 April 2008

There is one big benefit from the case preparation ritual that hasn't been mentioned yet and has a much greater result on group size than all the things mentioned.

All this prep results in uniform neck tension and thats a very big influence for where the shots go.

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CBA Member

RicinYakima posted this 14 April 2008

Well, Joe Gifford, George (linoww) and I were having coffee this morning. We kicked this around some, too. I think you are on the right track Bill. Most of this this “match preping” does two things: equalizes neck tension and helps align the bullet with the bore while it is in the chamber. If the case is fire formed to the chamber, the bullet is aligned with the bore and the bullet releases at the same time during the firing event, does case interior volume difference of 0.01% really matter? I think not.

How much work will I go to to decrease my group size 1/10th inch? A whole lot if it makes a “9” into a “10"! That is the fun of match shooting for me. How do I make every shot hit closer to the center of the “X” ring.

Ric

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CBA Member

billwnr posted this 14 April 2008

RicinYakima wrote: How much work will I go to to decrease my group size 1/10th inch? A whole lot if it makes a “9” into a “10"! That is the fun of match shooting for me. How do I make every shot hit closer to the center of the “X” ring.

Ric Well... Rick I think you just hit the nail on the head for why I'm still trying to improve my loads. So far I've experienced excellent results with the RCBS 180FN, the RCBS 180SP and two varieties of the NEI 308-190 (with two different nose shapes and two different nose diameters). I'm not currently shooting the most accurate bulet as it has wind problems.

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Standard Member

CB posted this 14 April 2008

billwnr wrote: There is one big benefit from the case preparation ritual that hasn't been mentioned yet and has a much greater result on group size than all the things mentioned.

All this prep results in uniform neck tension and thats a very big influence for where the shots go. Bill,

I figure keeping the necks annealed is the biggest factor to uniform neck tension (next to correct size diameter) in a milsurp or factory barrel.........Dan

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CBA Member

billwnr posted this 14 April 2008

Dan, we aren't working the necks much what with using the Redding neck bushing die. I don't think the necks are being sized down all that much. My fired cases mike .340 and are sized down to .334 so that's not working them much. How often do you anneal your cases?

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CBA Veteran

Scott Merchant posted this 15 April 2008

On my Military match cases I normally use Lapua, Account the case weight variation is minimal, case necks are uniform with very little or no run out. I will sometimes prep the primer pocket and flash hole. But if your looking for the cause of flyer's besides the wind which is not something we can control. I would say Bullets and Case neck tension are the biggest ones. Dan is 100% right on annealing your case necks this is one of the biggest cause of unexplained flyer's. The second is the Bullets themselves unless you weigh, you will never find the one with the big void that looks perfect on the outside.

As far as not work harding the case necks by using a Redding with the neck bushing die, Don't kid you self Bill it happening. Now the tricky part is figuring out when you need to anneal them. When I was still using both the standard neck sizing die and also the bushing style die I would anneal after the fifth reloading. In the production, heavy and unlimited classes the guns are throated which leaves very little of the bullet in the case neck. So in turn they neck size just a nought to hold the bullet very lightly, thats how they get away from work hardened neck problems. But since we in the Military classes cannot Throat are rifles at all, we anneal.

Scott

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Match Director

linoww posted this 15 April 2008

Bill W.

All this prep results in uniform neck tension and thats a very big influence for where the shots go.

Good point.

Scott-

I notice I lose more necks in my military cases than others.I neck size with a lapped out die,but still move the brass much more than my 30BR.I have only annealed the '06 when i got my first neck crack or when I thought I could “feel” neck tension changing.

I'll have to give my process more thought.

Question #2-How does everybody else anneal their cases?

Thanks for all the input guys.

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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CBA Veteran

Scott Merchant posted this 15 April 2008

George

When I anneal the 30-06 cases I hold them between my thumb and finger rolling them back and forth. When I see the color changing on the neck running into the shoulder I drop them into a pail of water. I find that polished cases are easier to see this happening. I do not heat them any hotter than a dull color change. Don't reach a Red or Orange color this is to hot. I am tyring to swing the cost of a annealing machine this year. So many toys so little money.

Scott

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Match Director

linoww posted this 15 April 2008

I use a candle and hold and rotate them until they get too hot to hold then drop them in H20.It takes longer but i think it works fine?? I read it in Precision Shooting a few years back.I have also used a “leadpot dip" on fired/dirty neck cases with similar results.Lead seemed to stick on new or polished cases.

If I understand correctly my lower temp slow annealing is comparable to hotter shorter term annealing.Somebody correct me if I am wrong.

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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Standard Member

CB posted this 15 April 2008

I wear a thin deerskin leather glove and roll the cartridge in my fingers with a propane torch held on the neck only. I understand that a critical heat needs to be reached which is red hot. I turn off the lights in my shop and do heat to a dull red, remove the torch, and just when the red is gone (about 1 or 2 seconds) I drop into water. If dropped while still red hot, the necks will be like butter, but I've never had any problems with the 2 second wait. If the neck isn't brought up to red, it is not getting a full restructuring through the thickness of the wall. Probably doesn't make any difference to accuracy, but could to how many times you have to re-anneal and how long the necks will last if not fully annealed.......that's my way..............Dan

Reminds me, I need to go out and anneal some cases right now :shock:

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CBA Veteran

Scott Merchant posted this 15 April 2008

George

The candle method works fine, you and Ric must have read the same article :cool:. I don't use it because of the time constraints involved. As far as dipping a case into a lead pot to anneal, even if the case necks have been dipped into oil has never worked for me ether. I have a theory on this, that it was started by two gun writers setting around drinking adult beverages. When one says to the other if we tell them “that being us the readers of such things ” to dip there cases in to molten lead to anneal, especially with oil on the necks do you think that they will do it. Then for years after when they set down for a drink they laugh uncontrollably about all the ditzes that have burn there fingers, ruined brass and all the oil smoke that it has caused. Scott

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linoww posted this 15 April 2008

Scott Merchant wrote: George

As far as dipping a case into a lead pot to anneal, even if the case necks have been dipped into oil has never worked for me ether. I have a theory on this, that it was started by two gun writers setting around drinking adult beverages. When one says to the other if we tell them “that being us the readers of such things ” to dip there cases in to molten lead to anneal, especially with oil on the necks do you think that they will do it. Then for years after when they set down for a drink they laugh uncontrollably about all the ditzes that have burn there fingers, ruined brass and all the oil smoke that it has caused. Scott

I only used it on 22-250 and 222 cases and it worked just fine.I used a glove and just counted the time in the pot.I dont use it anymore becasue it makes me nervous hovering over a pot like that.I never did the oil thing you mentioned.

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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CBA Member

RicinYakima posted this 15 April 2008

Scott and linoww,

Actually Mattern, in the first ever reloading book, 1926, suggested the lead pot method. Like you, it never worked well for me as lead soldered to the case necks.

Dan,

The metallurgist wrote than copper anneals on a time temperature curve, lower heat longer time equals higher heat shorter time. The candle method allows me to sit on the deck, under the umbrella (with an adult beverage), and do it in the sumer when it is too hot to cast. Ten seconds, a wipe with a damp cloth and they go into the case tumbler. Water quench doesn't do anything to copper or its alloys, but does keep the heat from traveling to the case head. He also called this method “heat treating” as apposed to annealing. This is suppose to make the brass about 1/2 way between “soft” and “half hard” on the “dead soft to full hardened” scale.

Ric

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linoww posted this 15 April 2008

Ten seconds, a wipe with a damp cloth and they go into the case tumbler. Water quench doesn't do anything to copper or its alloys, but does keep the heat from traveling to the case head.

I hadn't thought of the wet rag deal,I like it.I dropped in water just to stop the heat from spreading.The candle method works well for me because i can sit back while the pot heats up.You must use windproof candles if you anneal on your deck or drink enough “adult beverages" so you were “lit",but the flame wasn't<G>

Do you remember where this info came from.It seems like it was P.S. magazine in the late 90's,but I cannot remember the author.

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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CBA Member

RicinYakima posted this 15 April 2008

Geo.,

If I remember correctly, it was Precision Shooting or The Accurate Rifle from the 1990's. Also the author, the metallurgist who was a schutzen shooter, was in answer to a previous article on case annealing. But I seem to recall the original article was on wildcat case forming and not cast bullet shooting.

Ric

p.s. I use the candle like I used to heat C rations in Viet Nam. I use a candle in the little metal cup the wife uses for a warming dish. Then on an open ended tin can I punch some small holes around the bottom for air intake. Candle goes inside and top of the flame is about 1 inch below the upper lip. Wind proof, mostly light proof for the sides and I can ever rest the case on the lip if my hand gets tired holding those heavy 30/06 cases up. Don't want to make work out of this!:D

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linoww posted this 15 April 2008

RicinYakima wrote: Geo.,

But I seem to recall the original article was on wildcat case forming and not cast bullet shooting.

Thats the one i was thinking of also.I cant seem to get anybody to try the candle method.Its about the least work off all annealing styles i have tried.People seem to think it has to be glowing in order get any annealing value.

Back to the topic-

I guess neck tension may be the thing we are all trying to get uniform in different ways.Weight segregation seems not to be as important to most if I am reading responses properly.What about primer pocket uniformity??Orienting cases in dies and chambers?? I know you have experimented in “run out” and accuracy issues .How little is good enough and how much is bad.What do you figure each .002 means for accuracy in your average 1.5 MOA military rifle?If you firmly seat the bullet(wiht relitivly loose neck tension) into the rifling does it self center and cancel out a bit of the runout??

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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RicinYakima posted this 15 April 2008

Geo.,

As an executive summary of the article I wrote for “The Fouling Shot", a Springfield National Match or NRA Sporter chamber can't tell the difference between zero and 0.003” run out. But 0.004 to 0.006” open up 10 10-shot groups about 1/10 to an 1/8 inches. I always orient cases to dies, bullets and chambers for match (and those test) loads.

Ric

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linoww posted this 16 April 2008

"But 0.004 to 0.006” open up 10 10-shot groups about 1/10 to an 1/8 inches."

Thats almost splitting hairs on 1-1.5 MOA rifles<G>But it is the difference from an X to a 10 alot of the time.

So here is my “Joe Brennen” magic importance list for Miltary BR shooting.Assuming an appropriate powder charge .Add or corrrect it if you disagree please.

1 Ability to cast and process uniform bullets

2 Bullet fit in throat

3 Reading wind conditions

4 Bedding if allowed to do so.

5 Uniform neck tension loaded rounds

6 Concentric loaded ammunition

7 BR prepped and sorted cases

8 Lube choice (amnt & type)

9 Alloy choice

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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CBA Member

RicinYakima posted this 16 April 2008

linoww wrote: "But 0.004 to 0.006” open up 10 10-shot groups about 1/10 to an 1/8 inches."

Thats almost splitting hairs on 1-1.5 MOA rifles<G>But it is the difference from an X to a 10 alot of the time.

Linoww,

A 10% reduction is worth some effort in my opinion. I did all this shooting in 2004 in an NRA Sporter. I was acutally working on reloading die information for myself and never planned to write about it. What I wish I had done in kept the targets to see if one or the other had a higher percentage of hits close to the center. But that isn't what I was looking for, as they say “Too soon old, too late smart!"

Ric

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linoww posted this 16 April 2008

A 10% reduction is worth some effort in my opinion.

But 0.004 to 0.006” open up 10 10-shot groups about 1/10 to an 1/8

That would put your your Springfields average for the ten 10 shot groups in the 7/8"-1” range. Thats darn good.

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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CBA Member

RicinYakima posted this 16 April 2008

How I would love to shot it in Military Rifle competition! But it will never make the cut in Production Rifle class @ 1 MOA. Ric

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CBA Member

billwnr posted this 17 April 2008

On the topic of neck turning just remember that we in the cast bullet crowd seem to lag the improvements and innovations of the jacketed crowd. I cruise the benchrest.com forum and notice some of them are starting to cut “no turn” necks in their guns where they are use “as issue” brass.

This may be unique to the long range jacketed crowd and not the 100 yd - 300 yard full up BR crowd. I wonder about “no turn” necks as it seems to be a step backwards. Maybe it's because they have discovered the uniformity of Lapua brass and a few other mfgrs.

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linoww posted this 17 April 2008

RicinYakima wrote: How I would love to shot it in Military Rifle competition! But it will never make the cut in Production Rifle class @ 1 MOA. Ric Was it the NRA sporter?

Geo.

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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RicinYakima posted this 17 April 2008

Yep, NRA Sporters were never military issue, and don't make modified iron because the barrels are heavier than issue barrels. Lost all my pictures when computer crashed in Jan, but it is a nice one. I'll show it to you the next time you are here. Ric