225415 new sprue plate

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  • Last Post 15 April 2020
Shopdog posted this 02 April 2020

Got a NOS 2 holer Lyman 225415 with sprue holes almost as big as the GC shank. This is a mid 1970's mould that weighs in,with GC installed @49g. Which is what I was searching for.

Not a newcomer to go-fast 22's. Have been scorching 223 and 22-250 barrels with cast for a few years. Absolutely zero complaints on accuracy,speed,or terminal ballistics(varmint hunting). Love the 55g Lee and RCBS moulds. Their sprue holes are noticeably smaller than this Lyman.

I could Tig up the holes(can do it blindfolded) but still would have to drill and surface them. Might as well start from scratch. Will make a few blanks to have on hand and spend a little extra time and design/build a drill fixture for repeatability.

Am going to start a touch smaller diameter than even the existing Lee/RCBS hole size. Also,go with a steel thickness more inline with the RCBS. The Lee is the thinnest,then Lyman,the RCBS is thicker yet. Will keep y'all posted on development best I can. Once things get rolling in the machine shop,I don't document very well. Finish the project and get right into the next layer of dirt(rabbit hole). It is nice,if you're into digging holes? to be using a big honkin backhoe vs a shovel.

Any discussion on plate thickness and hole diameter is not only welcome,but highly appreciated.

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JeffinNZ posted this 02 April 2020

I made replacement sprue plates from my .22 moulds a few years back.  Weight variation (for what it is worth) reduced.

Cheers from New Zealand

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Shopdog posted this 02 April 2020

Got 4 cut out this a.m. Took about an hour,used some nice "ground" 3/16" steel. Gotta go mow grass,will think about a fixture whilst doing "laps" on the tractor for drilling. Only going to drill one though,will throw the fixture and spare plates in the cabinet with all the moulds.

Will be casting with it in a day or so.

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Shopdog posted this 02 April 2020

Done,will try to post a pic.

Thought about the process. There's no guarantee that Lyman punches the sprue plate holes perfectly centered. So any fixture just adds to the stacking,by them or me.

I punched the hole for the hold down screw and mounted the plate. Then used basic layout protocol and got the holes deadnuts over the cavities. Leaving a .001 or 2, "away" from the stop post. This allows me to fine tune the location by taking off a little at a time on the plate where it contacts the stop pin.

Ran out of cold blue,so left it in the white. Oh yeah,had to counter bore the plate for the screw head/lock washer to get it down where it was.

Nice project,and I'll jot some notes down(sequenceing)and throw it in with the extras.

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Shopdog posted this 02 April 2020

Haven't figured out to post pics?

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JeffinNZ posted this 02 April 2020

This is the difference in cut off:

 

Cheers from New Zealand

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Shopdog posted this 09 April 2020

Haven't casted with this mould since making the new plates.

Am putting a new stock on the R700V 22-250 which is what this mould is for. As such,instead of introducing a new bullet into the process,am using the Lee 225-55 that has been SO accurate.

So,ordered some cold blue. Got 44/40,AND oxphoblue coming. Have always used Birchwood Casey. No real complaints,just figured these plates would be a better test bed then an actual gun part? We also use right much cold blue for fixtures and custom fasteners.... just a nice way to finish these items. Really need to learn how to color case these bits of tooling.... should start a new thread?

I'll play around with the cold blues,then try casting and report back.

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cbshtr posted this 09 April 2020

Years ago, when I was shooting at Tamaqua, I had a Lyman 314299 mold that was 4 thousands out of round. Lyman replaced the mold twice and still couldn't get it right. So instead of trying to lap out 2 cavities I lapped out one which tho not perfect was good enough. To only cast in the one cavity I made up a sprue plate with only one hole it out of 1/4" aluminum of unknown specs. By using a wood deburring bit I was able to make a nice size tapered hole that finished just a little bigger than the sprue hole. That allowed a good size sprue puddle without molten lead going all over. A light sanding on the bottom of the plate on plate glass gave it a nice flat surface. Once up to temperature that mold would make some nice bullets with barely a mark visible on the bullets tail. It was relatively easy to make once I figured out the dimensions using only a cheap drill press and hand tools. Tho still out of round a little I was able to hold my own with my old O3A3. I shot a 5/8" three shot group at 200 yards during the warm up round. Of course repeatability is what makes it an accurate round..

Robert Homan

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 09 April 2020

... you can get a pretty blue on most gadget steels by heating it up to 600 F. and slightly above.  if you use a handi-torch work up with even heating.  when blue just cool in oil.  great for small screws etc.  of course, it can anneal things also ( g ) .   ken

 

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mashburn posted this 10 April 2020

Hello Shopdog,

Oxphoblue works very well, if applied correctly. As far as casehardening, I have been doing color case-hardening for about 20 years and would like to give a little advice. If using the carbon pack method, any item this thin will wrap like the devil, unless it is secured in some sort of a fixture and then it will still warp too much for a sprue plate unless you surface grind after case hardening. By all means, don't try to case harden a high carbon steel, It will be brittle as glass and the first time you give the plate a whack to cut the sprue, it will shatter. Low carbon steels such as 8620 and 8630 are ideal case hardening steels .Ken's method of temper bluing is ideal to color low carbon steels. Also you can do fake casehardening with a fine point torch and oil. The casehardening that Turnbull does on high carbon gun receivers and such is not real casehardening. I think it is some kind of chemical coloring process but I'm not for sure. I'm not trying to be a smart A, just trying to be helpful. I suffered from a lot of failures while learning the process. I like to see people who build things instead of buying them. Our people are getting to the point they don't know how to do anything. Keep up the good work and keep  craftsmanship alive.

Mashburn

David a. Cogburn

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Shopdog posted this 11 April 2020

Appreciate the insight Mashburn. The color case hardening isn't for the sprue plates..... just gonna throw some cold blue on them and get to casting.

The color is for other fixtures N stuff. I'll study up on it best I can,you'll probably be able to fill in some blank spots,thanks.

Got the 22-250 put back together this evening,and will be shooting tomorrow. Have plenty of the Lee and RCBS bullets cast. The 225415's didn't do too well(bases just not up to snuff) but can load up the best of the lot in the next few days.

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mashburn posted this 11 April 2020

Shopdog,

I'm interested in how your .22 caliber project shoots. I have not played with .22 bullets much, but am getting ready to load up some powder coated.17 projectiles. I have PB and GC bullets. I hope I have some success and am able to shoot the .17 Mashburn in the ground hog postal match. I have my doubts as to how successful it will be and will probably be shooting my old Remington pump 32-20. Keep us posted on the results. Good luck and keep on building things.

Mashburn

David a. Cogburn

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mashburn posted this 11 April 2020

Hello cbshtr,

I believe I would hang on to that mold and rifle. Nice job.

Mashburn

David a. Cogburn

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Shopdog posted this 11 April 2020

OK,question time;

I have seen moulds,LBT? that have a raised "curb" on top of the sprue plate,which goes around,or connects the two holes.Since I have 3 extra plates,to Tig this raised curb around the holes is very simple..... heck,this post is taking longer than the welding time. Is it worth the effort?

Obviously,the short answer is yes,go weld one and see. But the question is more,how much "better"? Considering it's a 50g 22 mould,and not something larger.

*Not the least bit concerned about warpage. Will hold it down on a thick aluminum chunk to act as a heat sink,and then surface (grind) it after.

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mashburn posted this 12 April 2020

Hello Shopdog,

Keep up the experimenting and good job. You must have a nice machine shop,, I do also, but I always want more equipment.

Mashburn

David a. Cogburn

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 12 April 2020

shopdog...  not sure this is exactly valid ... but i " think " i get better bullets when i leave a lot of hot lead on the sprue hole.  so i always thought a great big countersink on a 1/2 inch thick sprue plate would be ideal .

but then when i pot-drop, you would think the big head of 4 inches of hot lead would guarantee good bullets also.  but if i stick the pot spigot against the sprue plate for an immaculate pour,  it isn't as good as when i pour a big sloppy wad of lead all over the sprue plate... 

so it seems that keeping the sprue plate hot longer is a good thing.

veral's crater ... and maybe a big countersink ... would seem to do both more " head " and keep the plate hot.  and make a prettier pour ... i often have such a big mess that it locks my mold shut and i have to peel the lead off while it is still hot enough to do so.... 

notice i haven't made a you-tube expounding my technique ... ( g ) ...

ken

 

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Shopdog posted this 13 April 2020

Thanks Ken.

I have been casting since the mid to late 70's. Priding myself in not making a mess when casting so,I'm probably not leaving enough puddle on top. That still doesn't address the entirely too big factory holes one the 415 but it may explain the less than stellar bases?

Just sayin,the same small puddle I'm so used to using,"works" with the smaller holes on the other 22 moulds.

I'll tig up a curb tomorrow on another plate and consider the process or timing,WRT drilling located holes(amongst other concerns). Which then leaves 2 more plates? If anyone has any other "ideas on a 22 sprue plate" and wants me to try something,just post it up.

The 22-250 is back in the black so to speak. Mounted a minty 3-12X52 Tasco that's been on the shelf for a looong time. We received it when new,"broken" for free. Went through it fixing several areas and then just never used it? The Lee 55's are knocking on the door of 1/2 moa 10 shot groups @100. Will be shooting more tomorrow. 3 shot,no fouler,cold bore,are producing tiny cloverleafs. Which is what my main focus is,as a varmint hunter. It's just that,this particular factory barrel (minty takeoff,custom ground recoil lug) can post up some good longer strings of fire. So much that,if I was ever to get to a formal CBA match,it's what I'd shoot even though it would probably be in the unlimited class due to rules..... and that's OK.

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Brodie posted this 13 April 2020

Shopdog,

You may have thought of this all ready, but it bears repeating.  Anchor your sprue plate down securely before you start to weld the top to keep it from warping with the heat.  You might consider running short beads that you later connect.  Just a thought.

B.E.Brickey

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rmrix posted this 13 April 2020

I've had to make a few sprue plates for various reasons.

Somehow there was a 3/16" by 3" by 36" steel (ground !)  in a hardware store metal rack that did not match anything else in there. It was sold to me as just "hot-roll" and a great price. I have been making top plates from that as needed.

Cutting out the shape to size everyone understands.

So now the reason worth posting is this...

You layout the screw pivot hole and the plate stop location. From there, the location of the dead center over the cavities are found, marked and punched.  Normal stuff.

From that point, stick the new plate in the 4-jaw chuck. center it up using the center in the tail stock and turn the counter sunk sprue holes with the compound. I leave the compound set at 29.5 degrees (threading angle) as that works great. 

This assumes a lathe of some kind. Even a small HF lathe if that is what you have makes it easy.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 13 April 2020

rmrix ... good stuff.

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Shopdog posted this 14 April 2020

Sorry guys,didn't work on the welding yesterday. Got all the stuff ready but saw how close the curb is to the pivot bolt and decided to think about it some more.

Shot the 22-250 and built a big honkin,insulated 24" diameter gun muffler.

Googling LBT brought up a pic of another approach to the "curb". It's a whole 'nuther plate that is attached to the top of the plate. Like rmrix posted,more than one way to skin a cat. And in the case of a second or curb plate..... it could be pinned on if you don't have welding capability... AND,by pinning(which you'd peen the ends as "one" way) we're not running into warpage from the welding heat... OR... some localized problems near the pivot bolt. These were the things yesterday that slowed me down(seen as a good thing).

One subject that needs to be considered is process engineering. Without trying to write a novel on the,VERY dear to me subject.... it needs to be noted that in,not only casting products but also procedurally,there are "reasons" things get done the way we've come to expect them. It's the whole,if you're a hammer....everything looks like a nail. I love Tig welding.... si it's a natural here to look at it from that perspective. Next guy down the rd has a COMPLETELY different shop and needs to go about things differently.

The above is no small consideration.... in fact,looking back on manufacturing and things we hold dear,it's huge.

But back to welding and warping.... it only takes minutes here to produce a plate "blank". Yes,I'm going to follow protocol with fixturing and heat control,yadayada. But if it fails? Who cares.... we'll make another plate.

And for Mashburn. I ordered a Birchwood Casey,3 pack of this fake,color case "stuff". Looking forward to trying it out and will keep you apprised of the results,good or bad.

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Shopdog posted this 15 April 2020

So much to talk about;

44/40 blue came in. Cleaned and preheated the plate as per instructions. This is just OK blue,I like Birchwood Casey better.

Now to the good part. The new plate ROCKS!! The holes are just the right size,and deadnuts centered. Base fillout was lightyears better with this morning cast. There's no need for a curb because on a 22 mould you just aren't dumping that much alloy at a time. Combine that with the thicker plate and subsequent larger countersink and it's all you need.

Made a discovery as well;

I use a Lyman #61 pot. It has a mould guide,that was set for the 415. Because I didn't know if there was going to be a problem with the new plate,went ahead and preheated a Lee 22 mould to use,just incase. It's a new Lee which has the rebated bttm and doesn't play nice with the Lyman mould guide. So,instead of fumbling around I grabbed a pce of 1/4" steel,maybe 4" square. And played it on the top of the mould guide. But before I did,it got heated on a hotplate. Boy does it work better than a typical mould guide. The heat also helps keep the bttm of the mould hot. But that's secondary to how nice it is for location under the spout. WAY easier than the guide.

Y'all have a great day.

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