Need help with Leading in Dan Wesson 357

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  • Last Post 27 May 2008
corerf posted this 24 May 2008

This is my firts post, been a member about 30 days. Thanks for having me folks. Here is the skinny: I shoot a DW model 15 in 357. I have worked up a couple of alloys that heta treat well and cast pretty well. I have shot many hundreds of rounds loaded with 6.2-6.4 grains H-Univ, WSPM primers, medium crimp. I have had significant leading just past the forcing cone but I shot them anyway as they were under 1” groups during the first 25 rnds. Very accurate and many kills of rabbit thave been taken at descent range. Well, after discussing with Pat at Lee regarding the TL358/158gr mould,he thought the load or bullet was the problem. In working the 6.2 gr. load up, this was teh heaviest charge of H-Univ that didn't open up yet provided the cleanest shot (not very clean). PSI was estimated from data about 33KPSI. Bullet hardness using Lee tester was about 24 BHN. All bullets were unsized, a marked improvement over the sized model I had tried. I also tried H4227, my pet jacketed bullet powder for other firearms I shoot but it was filthy and shot open to 4 inches. Real Bad. So I went back to the drawing board on the 24 BHN. I studied the load data and found Aliant 2400 ran significantly less pressure with a starting load andgave 350 fps higher velocity. BTW the original load ran about 1150fps. Lube was Lee Liquid.

The new load  (aliant 2400)barks hard, it really is a magnum laod which I was looking for (so good, I will likely try it in my Desert Eagle with jacketed bullets). The 24 BHN seemed to be just right as the velocity went up as planned but the leading that had plagued me in front of the forcing cone has now moved to mid barrel and was in long streaks (8 inch barrel). I used only one coat of Lee Liquid, applied pretty heavy. I usually apply two thin coats, but anyway. I like the load, it hits aweful hard like a hunting round should. But the groups opened up also and the leading I could tell was making a big impact on the performance. Additionally, the BHN was 24 and the pressure was approx. at 26KPSI, a significant reduction.

So the question is, how do I fix the forward leading?? I had previously had rear leading, tried load pressure increase and decrease with no acceptable performance change and no leading reduction (as low as 5.4 gr, as much as 6.5 gr H- Univ). The new load is much lower pressure (slower burn with longer pressure curve) with poor grouping but almost insignificant leading (it cleaned real easy but it was for sure casuing the groups to fall apart). Am I running out of lube?? Do I try to increase load as there is a huge amount of room to increase, or do I reduce the load??? What is forward barrel leading a sign of, overpressure, velocity issues, lack of lube?? HELP.

Thanks in advance for the assistance. I have a 30/30 contender that I have cast a new alloy and bullets for full house loads but I am afraid to lead up the super 14 barrell which is amazing with jacketed bullets until I get a handle onthe 357. So I am running scared at this point and that contender NEEDS CAST Gas Checked BULLETS moving through it!! If I cant get the 357 right (but I will, I am not defeated), then I cant justify the 30/30 workup.

Lastly I have a NIB Bullberry 22 K Hornet barrel, 12 inch for another contender. I blow rabbits up with my 22-250, nothing left to eat, at any range under 400 yds. With the Dan Wesson open sights, 70 yds is my max kill range with Cast Bullets and I have to have a monopod rest (I cant see any further than that my eyes are not young). The alloy is so hard (24) that at 70 yds and 1150 fps, they just cut clean holes and I have to hit them twice to stop them from crawling. My 22 LR 7.5 inch pistol with scope is good for 100/120 yd shots but 50% of those shots are missed and I have to sit down to do it with a monopod between my legs with LOTS of unrepeatable holdover. I needed a killer that WOULDNT blow the rabbit to kingdom come and keep me in some food, but extend my range to the 150 yd mark where I am capable with a flat trajectory. I chose the 22 hornet but seems like folks have some real issues with making the hornet work with the currently available 46 gr. cast bullets. I don't want to invest in moulds and “stuff” and waste time for medocre groups. Any success stories, ANY??? Twist is 1-14” or 1-12” per the mfgr (it is a barrel stub so there are different twists for the scrap barrels, I will have to test mine to find out) I would like to shoot the Hornet in VOLUME like I do my 357, and for me that means cast bullets. I don't want to sacrifice performance to save money, CB's are supposed to be as good or better than jacketed if done right,and I firmly believe that.

Best regards,

Mike Crain, New CBA member.

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jhrosier posted this 24 May 2008

Mike, I would try changing the lube on your .357 bullets. I have had mixed results with LLA, and switched to White Label 2500+. The 2500+ loads in both rifle and handgun have not shown any leading. Also remember that you have to remove every trace of copper fouling from your barrel for good results with cast bullets.

Jack

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 24 May 2008

Hi, hey I had one of those ( 357 M15 8 inch heavy ) about 1983...  I couldnt keep  it from spitting sideways, and the factory wouldnt return several letters, they were changing ownership apparently.. anyway I sold it, but I loved the accuracy ... it was embarrassing my shooter buddies.  I did hand lap the barrel for finish and consistency and increase the barrel throat; even with 0.004 cylinder clearance it still spit lead, I thought it might be out of index a bit, but couldn't contact service DW.


You dont  mention if you are using gas checks in yours ... I shot similar alloy in mine, and anything over 900 fps or so was subject to more or less leading, without gas checks.  Lube::  the Lee Lube is great when it works, but do try some other kinds, one of the best that works for me  ( leading wise ) is moly filled type, also standard NRA lube ( 1/2 beeswax,1/2 alox ... this is available from various sources ) .  Be aware that a goop that prevents leading might not be the most accurate.  If you can shoot high velocity for 4 or 5 cylinders that might be good enough.  I like to clean with 0000 steel wool wrapped around a brush, and RemBore or JB Compound sprinkled on... then 1 patch to push out gunk, and then one very light oiled patch ... Kroil or Ballistol are my favorites, but probably another thousand oils would work.  Ed's Red included.


One thing that can cause leading is a barrel that gets a bit looser part way down.. this allows blow by of hot gases at that point, and can put melted lead deposits down, which tend to build up...  this can be felt by cleaning the barrel shiny clean, then running a tight patch down the barrel... with a sensitive finger, you can feel loose spots if present; even in high quality match barrels this “looseness” may be present, and can give fouling ( powder! and melted jacket material buildup ) in 5 or 10 shots....if I cannot hand lap this condition out of them, I send these barrels back to the barrel mfg, and have always been treated fairly by all mfg. ..


The above trivia is just for your consideration, hope some helps.  ken campbell, deltawerkes

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corerf posted this 25 May 2008

Thats good stuff about the barrel opening up midpoint. I thought the same thing myself. I shall put a tight patch thru and “feel” for a decrease in tension. A new barrel might be in order, it shot lots of pounding jacketed ammo before I came to own it. DW barrels from the factory are fairly cheap.

I do have a stick of Javelina that I will pan lube 50 rnds for the range. I ahve never pan lubed or hard lubed. Only used the Lee lube to date. I have the javelina in case the Lee didn't work at all, which is where I might be now. These are plain base bullets. The issue with the pan lubing I think may be the Lee Tumble Lube design, small grooves, lots of them, maey not hold a significant amount of lube well. The barrel does come clean easy, I pushed a dry patch thru and 90% of the lead pushed out. I had previously NEVER seen any amount of lead removed from this barrel with such ease. I did little to finish cleaning it, a few solvent patches and a dry patch, it was spotless. There was quite a bit of lead that came out, in long curls. It was not patchy. Previously the lead was in streaks, obviously blow by. This lead was more following the rifleing, more like it was pushed too fast and the lands cut the lead without the bullet following the grooves. I do believe I am going to back off the load about half a grain and see if the group closes up and if leading improves. I also will try the pan lube with Javelina for a volley on a clean barrel to see how it does. The velocity is very high, well above 1400 fps. I would be willing to reduce the load to somehwere under 1350 to prevent leading if it will help. 1150 wasn't fast enough but 1300+ would be on target for the load I wanted. I suppose if I back off enough, I will loose the obturation point and begin to lead the forcing cone area again. Maybe there is a middleground in there somewhere that will work.

Arttached is a picture of pistol and two shot 70 yd hopper that got the 24 BHN/6.4gr H-Univ load. This was an offhand shot, my hits were two for two. The rabbit acted like it had been hit by a 22 Short at 100 yds. First shot went through the belly, see gut hanging out with NO damage to gut. Second shot after he started to crawl about a foot went thru heart and chest, that ended life quickly. This rabbit tasted good. I could not repeat the performance that day, longest kill thereafter was under 50 yds. I think I psycked myself out.

The DW is a serious shooter, like no revolver I have ever seen before (with the right loads). Sub one inch groups with the original load development on my cast bullets at 50 yds from rest (for the first 20 rnds, thereafter they opened up bad due to fouling). Trigger is scarry light in SA mode. In California, I can only hunt bunnies now with it, the lead ban has killed me. I just started casting in November/December 2007. I still need a sillouette load for it so I will continue to develop for both the 30-30 and the DW. Also needed for the indoor target range. I need to move to another state!

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CB posted this 25 May 2008

I also have one of these DW 357's.. I dont have any problem at all with leading.. It dont spit lead either.

I did lap the bore a bit and made sure all of the cylinder forcing cones were the same and close to bore dia.

It is a fine shooter, sub 1 inch at 25 yards. I also use a pure synthetic lube, Voodoo Lube, that I make myself. I use a 358 keith style bullet at 168 gr. cast out of range scrap sweetened with a bit of tin.. About 12 bhn..

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 25 May 2008

Hi, wow!  1450  fps with plainbase lead!   YOU DON"T HAVE A PROBLEM!  What you have is leading edge neighborhood stuff.  Hopefully you will report here regulary and let us look over your shoulder !! I think the best way to handle your current loads is to simply clean often (g) ...  in fact, adding gas checks may still allow some leading.  The borderline leading is when the lead deposits are in little balls, kinda like the load would like to lead, but the melted lead vapor doesn


What I would suggest is for you to call Veryl Smith at Lead Bullet Technologies and obtain a fitted mold with big flat nose, of ” heavy conical nose ” type ... maybe 180 grain for a .357 ... then load it to about 1200 or even 1000 fps ... this should be good enough for Elk-a-Lopes (g) ....  that would be close to early 38-55 rifle loads !!!!


regarding the stupid california anti-lead bullets,  you might consider ( EEEEK ) solid copper/brass bullets, they are becoming available... if you want to play a bit, I would cut your some billet brass bullets of 360 brass, if you give us reports on how they go... with the solids, if you stay with flat noses, I believe they will still have good killing power.  contact me off forum about this. see webpage below.  I cant do this commercially, my Hardinge Chuckers are too slow (g) but I am allowed to play. although come to think of it with premium bullets at $2 each now, maybe not too slow hmmmm...  we could Label them ” California Specials” heh heh ... I don't get mad, I get even (g) ....


Just for nostalgia, my wife has a M15 in .22 rimfire  ( both 8 inch and   4 inch ) that is nearly mint... I think it is listed in my gun orphanage ( http://www.deltainc-usa.com/Orphanagestuff/pporphanguns/pgorphangunz.HTM )


When thinking about trying a new barrel tube for your DW, I might suggest that a Douglas rifle barrel in maybe 16 or 18 ?? twist would be just fine ... and if your gunsmith gets creative, he could easily fix you up with another 2 or 4 inches ( threaded nut on the end to adjust barrel fit ).  Another $$$ saver source would be the middle of a takeoff .35 remington/Marlin (g) ... just check that you get enough twist for the long conical bullet.


Just some Sunday morning chat.. ken campbell, deltawerkes

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runfiverun posted this 26 May 2008

wow..... i think i would just try a lower bhn bullet first with the other lube.

18 bhn should be plenty,      a 15 bhn  in my rifle does 2300

out of a 20” bbl with no leading..

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corerf posted this 27 May 2008

Are you doing this with plain base or GC. Thats alot of speed for a plain base bullet

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codarnall posted this 27 May 2008

My favorite load for any 357 is 6.0 gr of Unique.  I was told this was accurate by a newby friend to reloading years ago and was he correct.  Velocity in my 8 3/8 or  6 inch 627 is just ovr 1000fps and is it accurate.  Moly or Lyman lube.   Charlie

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Win52D posted this 27 May 2008

Corerf

I am surprised you are having trouble with the Lee lube.  I shoot the .357 Max with H4227 and GC Lyman bullets (200gr keith style) and have never had a leading problem.  I have also used the RCBS 180gr Sil-GC bullet with no leading.  The alloy is right around 15-16 BHN

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corerf posted this 27 May 2008

Win 52D, are you using sized or as cast?? I HAD tried 18 BHN (basically waterdropped alloy) with the H-Univ (way too fast as I have now realized) and had significant leading. Bullets were sized and lubed via Lee products, sized at 358, twice lubed. A small amount of powdered mica was tumbled before boxing to keep tackiness down. I have since stopped using the mica as it is reported to exhibit some leading increase.

I have a bunch of sized 358/ 18 BHN, like 500 or so. I stopped using them as they leaded badly, much worse than the 24 BHN with same 6.4 gr H. Univ.  I will try to load a group of 25 on a clean barrel with the Alliant 2400 and see how it goes as well. I have gotten too many reports of lead free use with  LEE lube and 18 BHN and lower under similar conditions.

So my new strategy is to load 25 each: Alliant 2400 at min. textbook load generating about 26KPSI with  the following..........18 BHN sized and twice lubed, 24 BHN twice lubed but unsized, 24 BHN twice lubed with 1 gr. reduction, 18 BHN sized twice lubed with 1 gr. reduction.

That should accomodate a diameter reduction with lower strength of alloy for increased obturation, harder alloy with twice lubed/Javelina pan lubed, same alloy with Lee lube but decreased pressure to see of leading is gas cutting (its not from what the leading looks like now), and lower strength bullet with even lower pressure (23-25KPSI).

The leading looks like the bullet was CUT by tooling to remove the lead, not by gas cutting. The rearward fouling I had previous with the faster powder was absolutely gas cutting. The entire frame was covered in vaporized lead, forcing cone, top strap, cylinder face, my THUMB, etc. The 2400 load with hard bullet showed NO signs of excess lube at muzzle,which I had a smoky star pattern before with the H. Univ. load.

I appreciate the help and the insight. If there is any other take on the matter, I am still reading. I will try to get to the range to experiment this week.

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