Black powder cartridge

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  • Last Post 04 August 2008
Mike posted this 11 July 2008

Gentlemen, just checking to see if anyone here is loading for the 45-70 “74” sharps rifle. I shoot for fun and just trying to get the best possible accuracy out of my shiloh #3 sporter. At this time I am using a lyman mold 457125 and using 30:1 alloy. Presently I use 68gr of 2f goex, drop 24"drop tube, .030walter wad, sized starline case, no crimp, and w-w lrp and 50-50 beeswax and vaseline lube,  Have been shooting about a 2” group at 100 yds. Best i can do so far. Anyone else reloading for a sharps and want to compare notes feel free to answer. I also reload for a couple of TD's and a sporterized remington lee 45-70. Shoot straight....

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DonH posted this 13 July 2008

I shoot .40-65 from a Shiloh #3 and .45-70 from a Lone Star rolling block. I have shot the occasional minute-of-angle group from both rifles as far as 300 yds but 1 1/2 to 2 moa is more common. I believe this to be true for most BPCR shooters. I don't see anything wrong with your load except I don't see your lube as being very black powder-friendly. If making your own, you might try Emmert's formula (easily found on the “net). SPG is a commercial lube that comes to mind. Lubes of this type aid in keeping powder fouling soft, making sustained accuracy more likely.

Aside from the lube thing, you can, if you wish, experiment with powder charge/amount of compression and with bullet seating depth. If the setup were mine, I would change the lube and shoot the load a lot. Trigger time may reduce group size somewhat. Good luck.

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R. Dupraz posted this 13 July 2008

Mike:

Don has it pretty much nailed in my opinion. I have had a 45x2.4 #1 for about ten years now and is shot regularly for pleasure and BPCR competition. It is about a 1/12-2 minute rifle constently which is the key with these BPCR's. Oh, yes I have shot some of those fairy tale groups occasionally, but it's the day in and day out capability of the rifle and load that really means anything.

If you are getting 2” groups fairly consistently now, it sound like just some fine tuning might help. Such as trying Goex Cartridge  or yes, even 3F or Goex Express. Or different combinations of wads, powders, seating depths and primers. Maybe large pistol instead of rifle primers. Not unlike smokeless, the combinations are almost endless. Just depends on how much time one wants to spend.

As to changing the lube, you can, however I would be hesitant to do so if your rifle is shooting this well. I would try some of these other things first.

And only change one thing at a time. Then verify more than once. I believe that one variable that is close to #1 on the list is the shooter. So, as Don said, trigger time and trigger time.

If your #3 is shooting this well so far and it was mine, I would be pleased.

 

RD

GUSA #4  

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Mike posted this 13 July 2008

Thanks DonH and R. Dupraz for the the good tips. So far my lube is ok and I have no noticeable leading. I dont think it moistens my powder residue much. OAL  for my cartridge using the lyman457125 old govt RN bullet is just off the lands. I think I may try some large pistol primers or fed mag primers to see if it changes anything for the good. At this point I am just happy to have a consistant cartridge combination. I have some 3f goex and even 1f to experiment with too. I hope you are getting some shooting time in  with your sharps.

Mike

 

 

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DonH posted this 14 July 2008

The only reason for my comment regarding lube is that there is (or can be) a tendency for petroleum-based lubes to leave hard fouling in the barrel when combined with black powder. If that has not proven to be the case with your rifle/load or if you don't mind wiping between shots then leave things alone.

My own lube uses the same proportions used for Emmert's lube but I substitute sheep fat/tallow for Crisco and peanut or olive oil for Crisco oil and add 1 tablespoon lanolin per batch of lube. This may not be the best lube for all climatic conditions but works here in the midwest for both BP and smokeless in the same velocity range. I am not pushing my lube nor even my opinion; just offering a suggestion should you have fouling issues. 

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PETE posted this 15 July 2008

 Mike,

  Can't add anything to the good advice already given other than to give you the load that I use.

Bullet - Lyman 457125 Powder - 65.5 grs. of Goex Cartridge Primer - Win. LR Lube - SPG Wad - cut from an ASSRA target at .008" Compression - .170" OAL - 2.803"

  This load will consistently group under 1 1/2” at 100 yds. I have fired this load 25 consecutive times as fast as I could load and fire at the NCOWS National Buffalo match with a fair amount of success. For those who don't know this is a time and accuracy match with three size Shilouettes from 100 to 300 yds. at unknown distances. Shortest time with the most “kills” wins.

PETE

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Mike posted this 15 July 2008

Thanks Pete for sharing your load data. I bet it is fun to shoot at a buffalo NCOWS shoot. You are fortunate to be close to events such as this. Nothing like that around my area. I will try your load to see what happens. Are your cases FL sized? Lightly crimped or just neck tension. I shot a good group at 100 yds today with a 68 gr load, FL sized, neck tension only. This was at a bench and at 100 yds. I am using a MVA aperture front sight. Just started using this type and before used a post sight.  At this time it's 68 of 2f that shoots best out of my shiloh #3 sporter. Just changing one thing at a time. Tried some lg pistol primers in some loads today with indifferent results. Need to shoot more with lg pistol p's to see if it changes anything.

Thanks, Mike

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PETE posted this 15 July 2008

  Mike,

  Yes.... I FL size my cases. After that, for neck tension I use a Lyman “M” die I've modified with an expander that's the sized bullet diam. With spring back of the case that gives enuf tension (about .001” to .002") to hold the bullet well without deforming it. I've found with anything more the relatively soft bullets (1-25) I use will be sized down slightly. I do bell the mouths enuf so the bullet base will enter the case without deforming and when I seat the bullet the seating die will straighten the case out. No crimp as I feel this just adds another variable and in order to get a consistent crimp you have to make sure all your cases are the exact same length.

  For primers I like Lg Rifle as I mentioned. There are some who like Rem. Lg Pistol primers, and I do use them in the smaller calibers like the .32/40. For a coupla years some of the guys were using magnum primers. Then they went to magmum primers with a newspaper wad between the primer and the powder charge. Then they went to lg Rifle primers with the same wad, and now their back to just using Lg Rifle primers. :) Right back to where we started.

  For sights I like to use MVA's LR tang sight with Hadley eye cup, and their bubble level windage adjustable front with an apperture in it. Once you get used to an apperture you'll prefer it over the post. That front sight allows me to set the tang sight on zero for windage and adjust the front sight to make any adjustments needed to get a zero on the target. For doing any kind of accurate shooting you need that bubble level front sight. If you'll look at a trajectory chart for any of the BP catridges you'll see soon enuf why.

  You've got the right idea about just changing one thing at a time. That was something I had to learn the hard way many years ago. My latest “problem” was I got to thinking possibly a 30x Lyman STS had gone bad on me. The rifle it was on was not a known quantity so put the scope on a rifle of known ability to see if it was the scope or rifle. Turned out to be neither. Was the way I'd been loading the rifle for breech seating.

  Yep! The NCOWS Buffalo Match was a lot of fun. I live about 35 miles South of the National range. The Shilouettes are set in the dirt rather than on a rail like regular Shilouette shoots. The Buffalo Match and their LR match were all I ever shot. The first year I used the .45/70 with the above load but found it was just barely acceptable. So next year my buddy I had our rifles converted over to  .50/90 SS. We started to get complaints that we were bending the Shilouettes. :) But these days I just shoot Schuetzen at our twice monthly shoots.

PETE

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3100Loren posted this 15 July 2008

Mike,

Just for the heck of it, you might be interested in reading Shooting Buffalo Guns of the Old West By Mike Venturino.  It's available at Midway.  It's got a wealth of information and is a good read too.

Loren

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Mike posted this 15 July 2008

Pete, thanks for sharing your loading techniques. I am learning alot from all of you shooters. When I started reloading for the 45-70 with black powder I had no idea what I was getting into. Thank you gentlemen for your replies to my questions.  This is a wonderful shooting community here.... Mike

 

 

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specops posted this 16 July 2008

1 other suggestion.  Try Federal 215 Large Rifle Magnum primers.  Most of the BPCR and NRA LR BPCR shooters use them.  I use them in my 1886 Winchester.  Deviations in velocity from shot to shot are in the single digits with them and groups are more consistent.  Dave Scovill and Mike Venterino are 2 good sources of info on shooting black powder in cartridge rifles. 

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Bad Ass Wallace posted this 04 August 2008

Mike,

If your shooting for pleasure, you might try the Greg Mathews tapered design for the 45/70. With this bullet in my '74 sharps I have shot some very tight groups however the bullet requires cleaning between each shot for best results.

A similar design for my 40/65 is also surpurbly accurate

A full load of 75gn Swiss 11/2 and only the base driving band seated in the case works best.

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