.280 vs .30-06 loads

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jhalcott posted this 23 July 2008

Boolit Master  

Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 717

Faster loads in the .280 Remington?

I was looking at some loads for the 30-06 in my Lyman books. They have 150 grain loads to 2500+ fps. The .280 remington loads STOP at about 16/1700 fps. Is there a REAL reason that I can NOT use the 30-06 powders /charges in the .280 case?? They are using the same #2 alloy in both cases and the pressures for the ones listed are very similar. Is it because the -06 is used in long range military shoots and the .280 isn't?

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Brodie posted this 23 July 2008

Jhalcot;  It's probably because the 280 isn't as popular as the 06' . 

I would just start with the “Minimum loads for R19, 4895, or 3031” and work up from there with a similar weight cast bullet.  Watch for leading, keyholing, group enlargement etc. as signs that you are too hot

That's minimum loads for the 280 in those moderately fast powders.

good luck!

B.E.Brickey

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jhalcott posted this 23 July 2008

  Thank you, sir. Do you think a difference in twist of 9 1/2” to 10” would make a big difference?

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billwnr posted this 23 July 2008

The difference between the two twist rates amounts to an additional 28 revolutions over the course of 100 yards.

It shouldn't make any difference in accuracy or maximum pressure.

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Ed Harris posted this 24 July 2008

Just remember that the smaller 7mm bore is going to build pressure alot faster.  The slower powders listed for .30-'06 cast loads will work best.  Stay away from the faster burners.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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jhalcott posted this 24 July 2008

  This is the reply I expected. On the other site there was some concern about the RPM factor and pressure differences in the calibers. I wonder how MANY people HAVE tried the .280 with cast!

  Thank you for you ideas and concerns.

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billwnr posted this 24 July 2008

the .30/06 has a 10 inch twist.  Loads for accuracy generally are under 1800 fps with the bulk of them clustering around 1500 fps.  (info from match data sheets)

The .30 BR is shot with twists of 11 inch and 12 inch for the majority of the rifles (again, data sheets).  The velocities are usually in the 1900-2100 fps range, based on shooter's velocity estimates.

RPM might be one person's version of “stirring the pot” to see what discussion might be generated.   Bullet hardness and correct diameters are the main things to look at to see how fast they can be shot.

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jhalcott posted this 26 July 2008

Well , I decided to see for MY self what would happen if I tried some '06 loads in the .280 Rem.using the 287405 bullet (150 grain/lyman#2) and Imr 3031 powder.Gator checks were used in these loads. I got large erratic groups, the best went 4 inches wide by 1 inch high. This was shot using the highest level(42grains). The worst group was with the LOWEST charge (38.5 grains) and went over 6". I did NOT chrono any of these loads but estimate 2500 fps. I MAY try teflon on a few for kicks to see if that helps.

  If primer pocket looks mean any thing , the higher powder charges are DEFINATELY giving higher pressures. I'll have to measure the cases to be sure though.

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Brodie posted this 27 July 2008

jhalcott;l     

When I suggessted using minimum jacketed  bullet loads as a starting point I meant 280 rem jacketed loads of a same or similar weight  ie. 150 .280 jacketed load with Imr 3031 or imr 4895 using the MINIMUM load for that bullet as a beginning point .  Then play around from there. 

One thing; the bore must be absolutely clean of any fouling from jacket material or they will group like a load of buckshot at 100 yards.  Good luck.

 

 

B.E.Brickey

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jhalcott posted this 27 July 2008

Coot, that is what I thought you meant and what I did. I am thinking about a harder alloy AND teflon taping a few for testing. Comparing the results will be interesting. I do NOT know what use this information will indicate. I don't intend to HUNT with these loads, especially a hard Linotype bullet. It IS fun to show some of the nay sayers that you CAN hit a golf ball at 100 yards with a cast bullet. They don't believe it when THEY can't do it with a .308 and JACKETED bullets. An older gent was at the club shooting an M1. We have an M1 league shoot each year. This guy has used the 311291 in his for the last 2 years and holds his own doing it. We only shoot to 200 yards.

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CB posted this 28 July 2008

I think with a 9 1/2 twist barrel you'll have a lot more luck accuracy wise if you drop the velocity down into the 18 or 1900 fps range. I doubt a golf ball will notice the difference and it'll be a lot easier on both you and the bullet. I'm one of the advocates of cast bullets being twist limited on velocity.

Don't pay much attention to Lyman's claims on velocity because I doubt if they tested it for accuracy. Driving a cast bullet fast is easy, making it hit where your aiming at the same time isn't.

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Brodie posted this 31 July 2008

Jhalcott;  Sorry, I have only been following this thread intermitently, I do't think that the 9 vs 9.5 in twist will make any appreciable difference  as you are stabilizing a less than 175 gr. bullet.  I used to shoot 196gr 30 cal gas checks in my 03A3 with nominal 1.5 in accuracy using around 36 gr. 3031.  I don't know what the velocity was as I did not have access to a chronograph then. 

B.E.Brickey

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linoww posted this 31 July 2008

One thing; the bore must be absolutely clean of any fouling from jacket material or they will group like a load of buckshot at 100 yards.  Good luck.

I don't always find this to be true unless it is with a very old heavily fouled military rifles.Then a solid diet of well lubed lead loads to fill the pits in and your in buisness.Then dont ever clean the thing more than a light coat of oil.

I load plainbase lead “grouse loads” for a few people in the 30-06.30-30 and 308 that seem do do better than buck shot accuracy.About 3"(or better) at 100 seems to be the norm with scoped rifles in their hands.The key is they probably don't shoot more than 40-50 rnds per year from the rifle's with jacketed factory ammo. I bet the rifles never get more than Outers or Hoppies oil and the end of each season.You can see the streaks of copper and yet the loads seem to fly relatively straight.I am also of the opinion that a GC lead bullet will eventually scrape out jacketed fouling.cant prove it,but swear it has happened in a few of my rifles?

 

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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CB posted this 01 August 2008

Interesting post George.

I have never see the results of testing to confirm that jacketed bullet fouling affects CB accuracy. It may be true under certain conditions but I don't believe it is an iron clad rule.

If it is true at all, it must only be for special cases since I have never seen it affect accuracy in my rifles. Especially not hunting level accuracy. Maybe I haven't looked hard enough but it surely didn't do much or it seems like I would have noticed

This would be a good subject for some well designed testing to determine if and when jacketed fouling affects cast bullet accuracy and is so how much. Joe Brennan where are you when we need you?

John

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jhalcott posted this 01 August 2008

I have shot cast in copper fouled barrels with varying results. A 30-30 would throw many “flyers” when it had a box or 2 of jacketed thru it. After cleaning it would shoot 1 1/2” groups with the cast loads. Both shot off bags. My 30-06 did not seem to care what it was fed. Holding 1 1/2 to 2 inch groups regularly.

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linoww posted this 01 August 2008

This would be a good subject for some well designed testing to determine if and when jacketed fouling affects cast bullet accuracy and is so how much. Joe Brennan where are you when we need you? John

Funny<G>

I wish i had the time to do it,but i couldn't afford the jacketed bullets!!

Kind of like Al Millers “lube but don't size"article in Handloder years back.People still repeat that as “Gospel" I always felt his data was rather skewed to his opinion.I think Dave Scovill (or another dime store gunrag expert)  said to figure 1” at 100 larger group size for each .001 sized!!I size as little as possible,but if done uniformly i cant see the harm down to at least 1.5 MOA.Now if you count bumping as sizing all goes out the door because bumping can improve accuracy.I have had it hurt accuracy  if the die is not closely matched to the throat and overdone.

Still i would prefer a clean copper free bore,but have shot cast in my 22-250 Savage 12 down to 1/2” at 100 with visible fouling that was in it when I bought it.De-coppering it did nothing either way as far a accuracy was concerned.it just took 20-30 shots to get it to settle down after the deep cleaning.

I thnk jhalcott has it right about it not always being a factor,but when it is  its not a total disaster.But in a ultra heavy copperd bore i bet it could be.

 

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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Brodie posted this 01 August 2008

Linow; I realize that jacket fouling is not always a problem for caast loads, but I have found that the faster you push them in a dirty bore the worse the accuracy; particularily  if the fouling is heavy.  You do what you want , but I'll clean my bore before shooting cast loads.  I guess that it is just a matter of opinion and personal experience.

B.E.Brickey

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linoww posted this 01 August 2008

Old Coot wrote: Linow; I realize that jacket fouling is not always a problem for caast loads, but I have found that the faster you push them in a dirty bore the worse the accuracy; particularily  if the fouling is heavy.  You do what you want , but I'll clean my bore before shooting cast loads.  I guess that it is just a matter of opinion and personal experience.

I wasn't trying to discount your experience.I thought i would throw in my 2 cents.It is a forum after all<G>    

I don't generally shoot fast cast loads except in the 22 calibers.I have no experience with bigger bores much above 2100 fps.Maybe it has more effect with faster loads in larger bores??.It would be interesting to know why it works for others and doesn't for some.

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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Brodie posted this 01 August 2008

Linoww;;

Sorry didn't mean to sound put out.  No offense taken.

Yes it would be interesting to know why some shoot well when fouled and some shoot well when clean.  Personally I think that it may hav esomething to do with the condition of the bore.  Pits, rough spots etc.  ; not having a bore scope I can't check it out myself.  But would be fun.  Brodie

B.E.Brickey

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jhalcott posted this 01 August 2008

  There was an OLD guy that ran with my grand dad. Gramps would cast and load for them both. Benny (never knew his last name) would shoot WHAT ever was handy. If he hit the target 4ft x 4ft he was happy.He'd clean his gun just AFTER deer season and use it all year. Gramps was the other kind of shooter. If he did not hit the black he was upset. Gramps would clean his gun the day he shot it. MAYBE  it all comes down to what WE think is the correct procedure. If we think it MUST be clean to shoot accurately, we won't try if we know the gun is “fouled". Kind of a mind over matter thing!

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Brodie posted this 02 August 2008

You may fust have a point jhalcott;; Now where did I put that raven feather.  I've got to fly to Phoenix tomorrow.

B.E.Brickey

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