1891 Argentine Mouser Loads

CBA Member

RicinYakima posted this 17 August 2008

Send a PM (personal message) to Argie1891 on this board. He has the most reloading experience of anyone that I know of with the cartridge. Ric

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3100Loren posted this 17 August 2008

Thanks, I'll let you know how it goes...

Loren

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Match Director

linoww posted this 18 August 2008

3100Loren wrote:

Has anyone tried a Lee CTL312-160 bullet in their '91? I have the rifle and I have the mould, but I cannot find loading data for 160 grain cast bullets. Anyone got any ideas? I want to use this rifle for informal target shooting and what not. Thanks.

Loren

I would also Pm Argie1891,he helped me with my Argentine project.

The load of 12.0 of Unique he gave me has worked with bullets from 150-210 grains.I also used 15.0 of 2400 with same weight bullets,but the Unique did just as well and uses less powder.With open issue sights 2"-2.25” 5 shot groups at 100 are pretty regular.I have been shooting the Lyman 311466 (seated deep with alot of jump) lately and it groups as above.Many groups in the 1.25-1.5” have been shot,but not enough to say it's a solid 1.5 MOA gun.Last load tried was the 311467 with 12.0 of Unique (also deep seated with gc flush to bottom of case neck)and the first group out of the cold barrel was 2.0 and the next was 1.2"(5 at 100) I loaded 20 now to see if it will hold up.I have noticed this gun taking about 4 shots to settle down with the Unique load.it starts high,then moves to where is “should” be. Argie's gun does the same he tells me.

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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3100Loren posted this 18 August 2008

Thanks George,

I did PM Argie1891 and look forward to hearing from him. I was thinking of starting at around 11 grains of Unique, I am glad I asked because that now seems a little light. I bought this rifle while I was in high school and the issue sights are a memory. I put a Williams' open aperture on the back, and who knows what is on the front, that was a long time ago. Your email sets me to wondering where a set of issue sights could be found. Oh well, another project. I hope my results are as good as yours, thanks again for the advice. I'll let you know how the CTL bullets work for me.

Loren

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Match Director

linoww posted this 18 August 2008

Here is how mine shoots on a good day

.This is with a load of 2400 and the Lyman 311284.I now use Unique and the lyman 311466 150g .This is because i have a 4-cavity version and can really cook-em out.I bet the Lee 160 will do fine.Don't be afraid to seat it deep.

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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Standard Member

3100Loren posted this 20 August 2008

George,

Thanks, I am inpressed. I m going to try the '91 on Friday....I'll let you know how it goes.

Loren

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Match Director

linoww posted this 21 August 2008

I'll be out with 100rnds and the Argentine later today.I loaded my 311466 “standard” load,the 311467,an old SAECO #304(165g loverain style),Lyman 308329 and the 31141 ina HP version.All with 12.0 of Unique of course.If the wind doesnt let up it will just be a powder burning experiance.It's about 20-30 MPH right now!!

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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CBA Member

RicinYakima posted this 21 August 2008

George,

I'd be interested to know if the long throat makes a difference with seating depth.

Weather has to be better than last week's 105 degrees and 10 knot winds!

Ric

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Match Director

linoww posted this 22 August 2008

This is the first target shot.The lower is with the 311467 deep seated.The upper was shot next with the 308329 deep seated with GC shank flush with neck.Curious how shot #1 with the '329 was wild,next one closer,and the last 8 landed fairly close.(maybe it was a “lube adjustment” issue ?) I only loaded 10 of them as I had guessed with the long throat they would have scattered with no core group at all.I'll have to do a re-shoot with that one again adjusting seating depth and such.I also shot 10 with a 31141 HP mold.With the sight ladder up the zero was perfect and i shot a 96-2X.Pure luck,but i'll take it<G>The SAECO #304's first group was about 3-1/2".I shot one more and it ended up in 2-3/4” with alot of clustering.I'll give that another go as well.

(George,

I'd be interested to know if the long throat makes a difference with seating depth.)

When i shoot the 311284 seated long i dont seem to get any better accuracy then when i seat it deeper into the neck.I'll have to do a fair side by side comparison some day .You can hold the 311284 by the GC shank only and still not touch rifling!!!

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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Match Director

linoww posted this 22 August 2008

Here is the centered group with the 31141 HP.The lower group is the SAECO #304.The top is the last group of the day with the 311467.I shot 30 shots in 15 minutes and the barrel was smoking.Surprisingly it didn't open up as much as i had expected.The blue taped holes are some fast offhand shots with my 30-30,pretty embarassing.

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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klw posted this 30 August 2008

I played around with mine for a couple of years. Factory bullets worked pretty well but cast bullets were problematic. What I found was that if I had a high enough powder charge to seal the case in the breech properly then I got horrible accuracy. If I lowered the powder charge the accuracy improved dramatically but I got blowback right into my face. That dramatically increased my blood lead level. You need to be careful about that.

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Match Director

linoww posted this 02 September 2008

If I lowered the powder charge the accuracy improved dramatically but I got blowback right into my face.

My friends Argentine did that with light Unique loads with new cases.Once they were fire formed all was fine.I never had such problems.My cases were all used reformed 30-06 cases so maybe i had a better “seal” from the get go.

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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CBA Member

FAsmus posted this 07 September 2008

Loren;

This is getting to be an old thread but I have owned and operated a M91 for 20 years and found it to be an outstanding rifle/cartridge.

Pretty much anything that works ~ bullet weight & powder charge ~ in the 7.62x51 is worth trying in the 7.65x53.

My M91 is currently shooting the Lyman 314299 over 38 grains IMR 4350 @2000ft/sec+ into 5x1.250 @ 100 yards. This is pertty much “As-Issued” too, with the full military stock and only a Lyamn rear and Redfield front added since I got it.

Good stuff also happens with 21.5 gr IMR 4198 under just about any weight bullet.

Good day,

Forrest

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Match Director

linoww posted this 08 September 2008

My M91 is currently shooting the Lyman 314299 over 38 grains IMR 4350 @2000ft/sec+ into 5x1.250 @ 100 yards.

What alloy are you using with this load?

It is amazing how well these things shoot.With the 311467 and 12.0 of Unique i have been getting 1.5” groups (5 @100) with issue sights about 75% of the time.I'd like to scope the rifle some day to see what it could do.

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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Standard Member

3100Loren posted this 08 September 2008

George, Forrest,

Thanks for the insights. I think the 312 dia mould bullet is two small for my '91, guess I'll have to invest in a Lyman 314299. My last attempt was disappointing to say the least”¦just got to keep trying.

Loren

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CBA Member

argie1891 posted this 09 September 2008

before you invest in a 314299 i would try some 311284 bullets. if you want i could send you some to try. i have both moulds and by far the 311284 has shot the best. i cast them from ww+about 2% tin and size them in a .314 sizer die. the result is a bullet that is not sized at all but i just lube one lube groove. anyway if you want to try a few bullets of either of the above or for that matter both let me know and i will send you a few. on the other hand you cant have too many moulds or rifles. Joe Gifford aka argie1891

if you think you have it figured out then you just dont understand

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CBA Member

FAsmus posted this 09 September 2008

Verdana;

The alloy for the fast load is regular old rifle alloy, nothing tricky at all.

I quench heat-treat from the mold is the only thing out of the ordinary at all.

I need the speed in order to reach the 800 yard distance ~ light loads of anything else just won't do.

FAsmus

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CBA Member

FAsmus posted this 09 September 2008

George;

The 311284 is fine with 21.5 grains IMR 4198 but be sure you have an old Ideal 311284 that will cast around 0.314 or so. The new production molds in this number are of no use at all as they cast around 0.310 or so.

FAsmus

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Match Director

linoww posted this 11 September 2008

I think the 312 dia mould bullet is two small for my '91, guess

In my Argentine .312 bullets of Loverain style seem to work very well.Possibly a two diameter bullet may need a bigger body and nose.Interesting stuff. My 311284 is an older one at .313 x .301 and shoots nicely.

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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CBA Member

FAsmus posted this 22 September 2008

linoww wrote: My M91 is currently shooting the Lyman 314299 over 38 grains IMR 4350 @2000ft/sec+ into 5x1.250 @ 100 yards.

What alloy are you using with this load?

It is amazing how well these things shoot.With the 311467 and 12.0 of Unique i have been getting 1.5” groups (5 @100) with issue sights about 75% of the time.I'd like to scope the rifle some day to see what it could do.

George

George;

Nothing special, just WW and enough tin to cast well. However, I do shoot them heat-treated. Again, nothing tricky here, simply quenched from the mold.

I'd shoot them slower because the reduced load of 4198 does just fine at close range, but I need the speed to get on target at 834 yards with my tall-staff Lyman 48, where I spend a fair amount of time.

Don't bother scoping the rifle, just hang a good aperture sight on the front and a new-production Willaims on the back (unless you can find another tall Lyman 48!) The 29 1/2 inch barrel and long receiver will get you all the sight radius needed to shoot very well indeed.

Good afternoon, Forrest

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CBA Member

FAsmus posted this 23 April 2011

Gentlemen;

I'm going to bring this thread back to life this week - just to stir up some interest in the old M1891 in general and loading for the 7.65x53 in particular.

~ I'll be back.

Good afternoon, Forrest

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Pirate69 posted this 24 June 2011

Will shot my new-to-me M1891 for the first time tomorrow. Starting with both 10 and 12 grains of Unique behind a 155 grain cast. Barrel slugs 0.312". Bullet cast at 0.314". Lee decapping pin cut to 0.313” to give 0.001” of compression. Seems to be just tight enough. We will see.

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CBA Member

FAsmus posted this 26 June 2011

Pirate;

Look over the posts here some.

I have found that most any good cast bullet combination listed for the 7.62x51 (308 Winchester) will work in the 7.65x53.

Check over the loads listed in TFS for matches and postals for all the good data in the world.

Good afternoon, Forrest

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Pirate69 posted this 27 June 2011

Range Report:

This is the first cast loads that I have shot through one of the ugliest rifles that you will ever see. The Pawn Shop almost paid me to take it. But the barrel was in great shape.

Tried the 155 grainers in front of 10 grains of Unique on Saturday morning. To get on in the paper, did a five shot group at 25 yards. The group measured 0.75” edge to edge. Shot a five shot group at 50 yards. Group measured 1.3” edge to edge. Started to shot a 100 yard group, first shot missed the paper. Second shot hit the paper with a keyhole. Guess I ran out of velocity with 10 grains of Unique. Came back to 50 yards and shot the remaining 12 rounds rapidly to see if the barrel would heat and impact move. 12-shot group measured 1.7” edge to edge. Satisfied with first time shooting. The bullet tension was not as good as I wanted with the 0.313” decapping pin and I needed a gas check to get the tension I wanted. The 155 grain bullet was also a long ways off the lands. Discovered a 0.316” cast would chamber and the decapping pin is good for the tension. Will try the 0.316” cast next Saturday without a gas check and will try 12 grains of Unique. Still can't reach the lands with the longer bullet. May have a system that I can go from 155 grains to 200 grains very easy. We will see what the 200 grain groups look like.

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Wally Enga posted this 27 June 2011

Pirate69

Yep give that fat .316 bullet a try.

I would think that these old Classics will have a pretty wide variance in throat size and bore size / condition. I picked one up last year that had nice wood and exterior but the bore was marginal --- dark with some pitting.

I put a $39 delivered NcStar 2X7 on it as a Scout Mount and pinned in the rear sight base.

I tried some 314299's sized at .313 and at 100 Yds it would not hold the Black on the MR31 target.

I then tried an NOE 316299 4 cavity mold that I had that is a scaled up copy of the 314299 that drops at just over .316 with a .305 nose and sized them .315 and it settled right in and pretty well holds the 10 Ring with an occasional flyer.

I'll attach one of my better 100 Yard 5 Shot & 10 Shot Groups I shot with this rifle last Feb --- definitely not representative of a lot of them that got blown out for 8's. This was with 17.2 gns of 2400 at about 1550fps.

I am getting to be a real believer in stuffing the fattest bullet in the throat that you can easily close the bolt on.

Wally

Pirate69 wrote:

Range Report:

This is the first cast loads that I have shot through one of the ugliest rifles that you will ever see. The Pawn Shop almost paid me to take it. But the barrel was in great shape.

Tried the 155 grainers in front of 10 grains of Unique on Saturday morning. To get on in the paper, did a five shot group at 25 yards. The group measured 0.75” edge to edge. Shot a five shot group at 50 yards. Group measured 1.3” edge to edge. Started to shot a 100 yard group, first shot missed the paper. Second shot hit the paper with a keyhole. Guess I ran out of velocity with 10 grains of Unique. Came back to 50 yards and shot the remaining 12 rounds rapidly to see if the barrel would heat and impact move. 12-shot group measured 1.7” edge to edge. Satisfied with first time shooting. The bullet tension was not as good as I wanted with the 0.313” decapping pin and I needed a gas check to get the tension I wanted. The 155 grain bullet was also a long ways off the lands. Discovered a 0.316” cast would chamber and the decapping pin is good for the tension. Will try the 0.316” cast next Saturday without a gas check and will try 12 grains of Unique. Still can't reach the lands with the longer bullet. May have a system that I can go from 155 grains to 200 grains very easy. We will see what the 200 grain groups look like.