WW droped in ice water

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  • Last Post 24 August 2009
Lillard posted this 30 August 2008

I was casting some 44 240 gr. gc. swc with WW out of RCBS mold.  I like to try new things so I made a bucket of ice water and droped some in. They shoot better than the air cooled ones.  I don't have a lead hardness tester yet . Has anyone else done this if so what is the bhn

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CB posted this 30 August 2008

I either mould quench or oven treat almost all of my WW bullets and they come out around 19 BNH from the mould and 35 from the oven. I don't use ice water and don't know if that'd make a difference or not but have the feeling it'd wouldn't be much if any difference than using cold tap water.

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bfrshooter posted this 30 August 2008

I also water drop but it does not have to be ice cold. One thing to do is let them age. If you size do it very soon after casting then let them sit for a week or two. They will harden more and also grow in diameter a little which is good.

They will continue to harden a little more over time but not enough to be concerned with.

If you shoot them too soon after casting they will not be much better tnen air cooled.

Even though they are harder, most is near the surface and the boolit will still be ductile. If you size after they get hard, the surface will soften a little. Normally I use oversize size dies to just remove excess lube. For the .44 I use .431” dies.

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runfiverun posted this 30 August 2008

the coldness of the water isn't the issue the consistent temp of the bullet hitting the water is.

you wanna size them asap then wait about a month to shoot them.

your bhn should be 18-19. i use this method for some rifle loads up to 2300 fps or so.

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CB posted this 30 August 2008

Maybe it's just been my experience but I never found it necessary to wait a long time for the bullets to harden and have never had a problem with sizing after the HT. With oven hardened WW 30 cal bullets are in the high teens an hour after coming out of the oven and 35 BNH after sitting over night. They're also hard all the way through. Quenching from the mould has shown the same thing although the numbers are different. I add a bit of shot to the mix so maybe it's the added arsenic that speeds up the process. Can't say but those are my results testing with both the LBT and Saeco tester.

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Lillard posted this 30 August 2008

Thanks for the info I am new and like to experiment . As I said I need a hardness tester. I had to finish a wounded deer last week aproxment 125 pounds. I used one of the ice water bullets and they are about a month old. The only shot I could get was from behind I shot him in the short ribs just in front of the flank. The exit wound was in the center of his chest at the base of his neck. I was very pleased with the penatration and they shoot great to. The gun is a ruger super black hawk 4 5/8 barrel. ONE HAPPY CASTER:D

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454PB posted this 30 August 2008

One other thing you should know.....heat treated boolits will resoften over time. Quenched boolits resoften quicker than oven heat treated boolits.

Point is, unless they are going to be used up within a year or so, there is no reason to water drop them, unless it's just easier for you. I find it a PITA, and would rather use alloying to increase hardness.

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bfrshooter posted this 30 August 2008

Heat treated boolits get much harder and the hardness is much deeper then water dropped. I never found the need for the process with revolvers. They also harden faster.

It is true that the time to get the boolit out of the mold into the water makes them more even if the time does not vary but it has not proven to be detrimental to good groups.

Boolits will start to soften again after roughly 2 years but I have never kept any around that long! :D

I checked a water dropped boolit today that is about a month old and it was 20 BHN. No need for harder in handguns.

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Lillard posted this 30 August 2008

454PB wrote: One other thing you should know.....heat treated boolits will resoften over time. Quenched boolits resoften quicker than oven heat treated boolits.

Point is, unless they are going to be used up within a year or so, there is no reason to water drop them, unless it's just easier for you. I find it a PITA, and would rather use alloying to increase hardness. Bullets will never last long enough around me to resoften. I think you are right about alloying. I have alot to learn and I feel sure there will be more questions.

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CB posted this 31 August 2008

I don't understand what anyone would find a PIA about HTing either from the mould or using an oven. With one alloy you can get from 10 to 35 BNH without too much trouble and save yourself a few bucks in the bargain. I use WW for everything from the 32-20 at 1200 fps up to the 30x47 at 2650 fps. What more could you ask for?

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CB posted this 31 August 2008

For you to do it for me!<G>

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hunterspistol posted this 09 September 2008

:coffee Pat, I've got a question about that for you. How do you oven heat treat?  Do you need to know the exact temperature? Do you air cool the bullets afterwards or drop them in water?  I'd like to try making some really hard bullets for a 7mmTCU. Don't know if it would make a difference but, I just have to try.

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CB posted this 10 September 2008

I use a toaster oven set to 440 degrees using an oven thermometer to determine temperature because I don't trust the dial on the oven. There's different ways to hold the bullets for the soak but I use an old coffee perculator basket with a wire handle attached to it and stand the bullets upright. Soak the bullets for about an hour and then get them out of the oven and into the water as fast as you can dipping the whole basket in the bucket of water. To remove the basket from the oven I use a piece of conduit with an angled notch cut in it to scoop the wire handle up and do the dipping. If you let the bullets air cool they won't be heat treated. One other thing is to let the oven reach full temperature before you put the bullets in.

I run the bullets through a Lee sizer about an hour after quench and then let them sit over night to reach full hardness, then I lube with a die .001 over size in my lubesizer. 

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bfrshooter posted this 10 September 2008

I have never heat treated but would try it for a rifle. I read long ago that to set the oven you should test with one boolit. When the heat is high enough to slump the boolit, then back the heat down so they no longer do that.  You should use a good oven thermometer so you can set the oven right every time.

I have no idea what that temperature would be. It seems awful harsh for the kitchen oven. The toaster oven is a good idea.

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CB posted this 10 September 2008

I never messed around with the slump thing for lack of interest and found that 440 degrees will do the job. As far as using a toaster oven, I wouldn't cook a pot of chili in my lead pot and have no intention of cooking a batch of lead bullets in my home oven.  Plus if it's used exclusively for heat treating set it once and as long as you don't mess with it it's set for good. 

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bfrshooter posted this 10 September 2008

Sounds good to me! :dude:I can see the little woman if we cooked lead in the oven! :shock: 

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CB posted this 13 September 2008

Just to be sure and waste even more time (;)), if I am going to heat treat, I air cool, size, seat the GC, heat treat, and then run through the lubrisizer in a die .001 over the die I used to size before heat treating.

I've never been able to get the brinnel over 28: and that's with a 69% WW, 1% tin, and 30% used linotype alloy.  I calibrate the oven with an accurate thermometer, and after an hour's heat soak I take them from the oven and move them 8 feet to the sink and dump the entire container in.  And yes, I've got the oven as hot as I can get it w/o the occasional slumping.

I have considered making an alloy of 25% Lawrence mag #8 shot, 30% used lino, 1% tin, and 44% WW, and see if I can get it harder, but ...... 

The issue of age softening usually doesn't come up because I keep the unlubed bullets already sorted, sized, & GCd ready to be HTd and lubed as needed.

However, as for shooting deer with heat treated bullets, that is not a good idea unless you are using a cast softnose.  BTDT, and unless you are doing head shots it does NOT work well.  

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CB posted this 13 September 2008

LeeG wrote: Just to be sure and waste even more time (;)), if I am going to heat treat, I air cool, size, seat the GC, heat treat, and then run through the lubrisizer in a die .001 over the die I used to size before heat treating.

I size and seat the check after I HT and drop the bullets from the mould into water to speed things up. Might add a step or two and take a bit more time but it beats paying probably two bucks or more a pound for monotype, if you could find it, and will be harder plus weigh about 10% or so more.

Try setting your oven to 440 degrees, lose the lino from your mix, throw an ounce of shot into straight WW with a little tin if you want it, and put a bucket of water in front of the oven to do the quench. I guarantee you'll hit harder than 28 bnh.

I don't hunt so have no idea if a HTWW bullet would be a good idea or not but if I did hunt it'd be with a big caliber large meplat bullet so would see no disadvantage to a hard WW bullet. If I was going to depend on a smaller caliber expanding I'd use jacketed.

Pat

 

 

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Glenn R. Latham posted this 13 September 2008

Lee,

I have heat treated some bullets that had all ready been gas checked, and sometimes I got a real weird melting phenomenon right at the top of the gas check.  Read somewhere later the explanation, but don't remember it.  Your 8 foot trip may cool the bullets enough that this doesn't happen to yours.  Might want to keep and eye out for this.

Glenn :fire

 

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bfrshooter posted this 14 September 2008

Very hard boolits can fragment. I won't hunt with harder then 22 BHN. Even half pure and half WW's water dropped are hard enough. If there is any expansion in game it is minimal and penetration is fine.

I would not use super hard boolits for anything but target shooting.

I don't want soft boolits that expand too much because penetration can be poor. I depend on the large meplat instead.

There is a wide range of hardness with my revolver boolits and none has been detrimental to group sizes. I have mixed 16 to 22 BHN and still shot 1” groups at 100 yd's. Softer leads my bores and harder is not needed.

The most important thing is to find what your gun likes if you are shooting BR with a rifle. But handguns are not as critical. Water dropped WW's will go through about any animal. Keeping them within 2 to 5 BHN is a waste of time.

My revolvers have shot too many 50 yd groups from 3/8” to 1” to mess with and if someone will post 50 yd groups of 1/4” every time because they got picky with BHN, I will not do the work. I am a lazy loader and caster! :coffee I will not even weigh boolits. The few times I did gave me worse groups anyway.

Don't sweat the small stuff. Just relax and enjoy what you do.

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hunterspistol posted this 29 September 2008

Thank you Pat and the rest of you guys, that's some useful information.  I'm getting ready to test this out during this fall and winter(I'm crazy enough to do load development in December and January).

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