Cast bullets for hunting???????

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  • Last Post 07 October 2008
2frogs posted this 28 September 2008

So how do I determine what alloy and muzzle velocity is needed for a hunting bullet?

I am thinking of using my 300 win short mag for deer hunting and using cast bullets of course...What do you think of straight wheel weights and a gas check bullet...

And I am also thinking of using cast bullets in my 22-250 rifle as well for hunting and target shooting....

So how does one go about finding out which bullets would be the most accurate and the best shape for hunting or plinking....Do you need to go by the twist of the rifle as well as the depth of throat,etc

Thanks for any thing you may have to offer.....John 

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hunterspistol posted this 28 September 2008

:coffee    Okay, I feel the axe getting ready to fall.  But, never fear the more experienced shooters will show up shortly.

     My straight wheelweight loads only work up to about 1800 fps. From there, and you are talking about high velocity rounds, you'd need to water quench or heat treat to avoid leading and flyers.  You could water quench with a bucket of water and towel in the bottom.  Just be sure it doesn't get too close to the lead pot. You just drop the bullets straight into the water. It hardens the outside to somewhere around 15-18 bhn. 

Were it me, I'd try out longer bullets with the most lube grooves for possibly LBT blue lube or White Label's Carnuba Red. This is just off-the shelf custom, the other guys may be of more help.

 This would be a good question for Ed Harris, methinks.

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PawPaw posted this 29 September 2008

I use cast bullets in the .30-30.  It's a gas checked Lyman 311041 sized to 0.309 and loaded with 27 grains of IMR4895. It's cast from straight wheelweights. I tumble lube it twice with LLA, once before setting the gas check and once afterwards.  It runs about 1850 fps with no leading.  It's a good hunting load for 100 yard hunting, which covers about 90% of the woods and thickets around here.  It'll shoot completely through the smallish deer in these parts.

I use pure lead in the .45-70 and the muzzleloader, and they take deer with absolute lethality.

Most people forget that until the late 1800s, every game animal fell to cast bullets.

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Ed Harris posted this 29 September 2008

The .300 WSM has a bit larger case capacity than is ideal for best efficiency with cast bullets, but it will work.  For deer I'd suggest the heaviest flat-nosed bullet you can load that will not result in the GC protruding into the powder space, and which will chamber easily with slight resistance, contact the rifling with light engraving, but in which you can extract a loaded round without debulleting to avoid spilling loose powder in the action. 

To enable bullet expansion alloy hardness should not exceed BHN15. Lyman No. 2 or Taracorp Magnum alloy expand somewhat and typically blow off the nose in large fragments, the bullet shank retaining about 50% of its weight like old Nosler Partitions or the RWS H-Mantel.

A softer alloy of BHN12-13 is better if you can use it. WW + 2% tin expands to 1.5 times its original diameter, and retains 2/3 of its weight, with penetration equal to factory SP loads at velocities from 1800-2000 f.p.s..

Harder alloy bullets such as linotype tend to “crumble” above 1800 fps rather than expand, and over 2000 fps they cause shallow wounds like a varmint bullet which wreck alot of meat and may fail on large animals due to poor penetration. 

Heat treated bullets “rivet” or flatten a bit at higher velocity, but stay together well and penetrate through and through from any angle.  They work best on large animals. For deer a HT solid bulllet should be  .35 cal.  or larger, be driven over 1800 fps and be shaped like LBT types with as large a meplat as will feed.

With a smooth barrel, a bullet which fits the throat well, and proper lubrication you should be able to maintain hunting accuracy with softer alloy to 2000 f.p.s. or so for “a few shots” before leading starts to degrade grouping.  If you keep velocity down to around 1800-1900 you should be able to shoot 20 rounds or so. With such loads cast bullet performance approximate factory soft points in a .30-30, .303 Savage or .30-40 Krag - it's a 150-yard load.

The slower magnum rifle powders are unsafe for reduced loads, so you must use a medium burning rate powder such as 4895, RL-15 or Varget, using an adequate powder charge which occupies not less than 2/3 of case capacity.  Use a hot primer such as the Federal 210, or Winchester WLR. 

In the .300 Win. Mag. I used 56 grs. of 4895 with good results with the RCBS 30-180FN cast of wheelweights for a guy who wanted to try cast in his deer rifle, but that was 20 years ago. It would be better to check with somebody who's tried this with current powders.     

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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2frogs posted this 29 September 2008

I really appreciate your reply s and honor your opinions as well..

I do have some tin on hand as well so I guess I will add it to the wheel weights.

one thing I don't want is to have a wounded animal running away..This is not good. I have several jacketed bullets,but would like to try the cast bullets..With the country getting to way it is,cast seems to way to be going any more...Just my opinion..   What bullets do you think would be the best to try? As far as mold decision goes. and I think a gas check would be in order here as well...Thanks again..John

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Ed Harris posted this 30 September 2008

2frogs wrote: ...What bullets do you think would be the best to try? As far as mold decision goes. and I think a gas check would be in order here as well...Thanks again..John

Of the standard production moulds I'd try the RCBS 30-180FN.  This will weigh about 188 grs. from wheelweights with a bit of tin added.  I have killed a dozen or so deer with this bullet in the .30-'06 and it performs well over 1800 f.p.s. with GC.

If you are willing to spend the money on a custom mould, which I highly recommend, contact Veral Smith and get something around 190-200 grs. which fits your chamber and barrel throat, having as large a meplat as will feed from your bolt action.  Veral has much experience here and I would follow his recommendations.  You won't go wrong. 

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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2frogs posted this 01 October 2008

How would lyman number 2 alloy be for a hunting bullet with a gas check? Do you think it would be a better choice than using the wheel weights? Thanks again   Got the new Lyman book today..49th edition....I see it has some info. on cast bullets in the 300 WSM.....

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jhalcott posted this 06 October 2008

I use Lyman #2 often for hunting. Normal loads are with wheel weight alloy ,though. When I feel the need for a bit more speed and/or penetration I will use Lyman#2. The guns are 30-06 rifles or some thing about equal. I also use a bunch of T/C contenders for hunting. Barrel lengths go from a short 10” to a long 21". Calibers go from .223 to 45-70!

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runfiverun posted this 07 October 2008

from the sounds of it you are just starting out in casting.     you gotta learn to walk a bit first.

talking with veral is very good advice. read your lyman manual not just the loading data.  look at the first 100 pages or so really carefully.

getting results with a rifle isn't all as simple as casting some lead and just loading it up.  you can get good velocity with cast just don't expect to be shooting 3000 fps.

once you break 2000 fps with cast in a rifle things get different.  speed is easy it is speed with accuracy that is hard.

 

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2frogs posted this 07 October 2008

I have been casting bullets for years just never used them for hunting is all..Most of my casting has been for 45-70    45-90    45-120     50-70 etc...95% WAS ALL BLACK POWDER....

Most my target shooting with the 03A3 or 303 British were all hard ball at around 2600 feet per with gas checks....So I figured,wht not try some for hunting...But I wanted to get opinions from guys that have used them for hunting....I hate to push a bullet in one side and out the other,with no terminal damage...:coffee

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jhalcott posted this 07 October 2008

  I'd give SERIOUS thought to using one of those 45 caliber guns for deer:fire hunting. A wheel weight or a bit softer slug should do the job nicely.

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