28-30 Stevens load advice

  • 2.4K Views
  • Last Post 23 February 2019
ten-mile posted this 02 May 2017

I have a Stevens 44-1/2-52 chambered in 28-30.  The barrel is 30" with a 0.293" groove diameter, the expected 0.277" bore, and 14" twist.  I am just starting to shoot it so could use any pointers from others who have used this caliber.  I am a little baffled why the grooves are so large.  The rifle was made in 1903 and hasn't been shot much. That will change soon.  I am left handed so I can imagine that this rifle was special ordered just for me.  Those first loads made pretty much a buckshot pattern at 50 yards.  I had a 287373 mould that cast 0.288" bullets but now I have an Accurate 28-130B that casts 0.295" with 5% Sn so I am hoping for decent groups.

 

44-1/2-52

44-1/2

Attached Files

Order By: Standard | Newest | Votes
JeffinNZ posted this 02 May 2017

I can offer no advice sorry but that rifle is SPECTACULAR.

Cheers from New Zealand

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • MarkinEllensburg
rhbrink posted this 02 May 2017

I'm with Jeff on this absolutely beautiful! You might go over to the ASSRA forums I'm sure that someone over there has had experience with the 28-30.

Attached Files

Duke M posted this 05 May 2017

Oh that, is sweet.

 

Attached Files

ten-mile posted this 22 June 2018

Here is a group using the 0.294" 130 grain Accurate bullet.  5% Sn, 12grains IMR 4227 and LP primer.  Unertl 20X, 100 yards.  I have to shoot this rifle more and see how it will do at 200.

 

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • JeffinNZ
Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 22 June 2018

Accurate bullet, heh ? ... i would say that whole dang rig is accurate ...

at least we cb ers have made a lot of progress these last 120 years ....   cool

ken

28-30 ... big brother to the 25-20 single shot ?? ....

 

Attached Files

onondaga posted this 22 June 2018

Ten mile,

I believe your rifle was designed for paper patched bullet match shooting and if that hadn't occurred to you, I suggest you read up on the classic subject with those beautiful rifles.. My favorite book on the subject:

https://www.amazon.com/Paper-Jacket-Paul-Matthews/dp/1879356023/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1529699805&sr=8-1&keywords=the+paper+jacket

The book gives a good plan to make and fit PP bullets that works well. I followed it for .458 Win Mag and it worked well.

Incidentally, I tried the only new innovation in PP shooting and it quells the major durability and water strength problems of PPs completely. Moisten the patches with Lee sizing lube and it dries the patch strong and waterproof. PPd pure lead bullets can be fired near factory jacketed load levels very well. even in .458!

 

Gary

Attached Files

ten-mile posted this 22 June 2018

 Gary,

Based on the throat and depth of rifling I don't think it was made as a PP barrel.  However since the leade is so abrupt as to be pretty much nonexistent, I do think it was made for and would respond nicely to breech seating.  The original 44-1/2s have an issue with the hammer being in the way of the bore line so the breech seater has to be made to account for that.  I have to make one and see how it works.  It is possible to use the camming action on a 44-1/2 to breech seat but I am afraid it may cause undue wear.  Thanks for the link to the Matthews books.  I have had them all for quite a while and do like his lube formula with the oil soap, neatsfoot oil, and beeswax.  When I was shooting BP I could go a full match without a blow tube or cleaning.

 

Ken, yes the 28-30 is sort of a big brother to the 25-20SS but the cases are a lot harder to find.  I have plenty, but RCC cartridge apparently does a nice job turning them and with 2-week turn around.

Jack

 

 

Attached Files

JeffinNZ posted this 22 June 2018

That group is magnificent!!!!

Cheers from New Zealand

Attached Files

onondaga posted this 23 June 2018

Ten mile

PP bullets will certainly work with your rifle. If you decide to give it a try, here is the math I gleaned from the book:

I use, from OfficeMax, Strathmore tracing paper .0018" x 4 = .0072" (a two wrap patch)

Throat diameter measurement from chamber casting minus .0072"  equal the bullet diameter needed.

The only thing tough about this is measuring the paper material thickness accurately, I micrometer measured 10 sheet stacked thicknesses and divided by 10 to get a precise single sheet thickness measurement.

An easy patch cutting and rolling method is covered in the book.I followed instructions and a tabletop paper cutter worked great.

A benefit you may have overlooked regarding paper patching for your rifle is the extended long range benefit from the significant velocity over lead that PPd bullets can be shot accurately. They are inherently more accurate than just cast bullet or jacketed bullet shooting when you do it well with a good fit to the throat. Leade contact is not needed for stability with a PPd bullet/patch that fits with a slide fit on chambering. The fit is the stability for a good start. A truly good fit with a PPd bullet will take 2 pounds more finger push to chamber than a cast bullet or jacketed bullet that doesn't contact the chamber with a sliding fit.

I cut the patches wide enough so there is enough for a bottom fold and 1/2 of the ogive to be covered. I roll them dampened with Lee Sizing lube and rub them with powdered graphite on a small 2x2" scrap of Chamois. They are ready to load when dry. The patches are strong, water proof and very abrasion resistant. Plus, they are cute and everybody asks about them.

Your rifle shoots well with what you are already doing, but I believe a well fit PPd bullet of similar weight and charge will shoot 10% smaller groups.

 

Gary

Attached Files

GP Idaho posted this 28 June 2018

Thanks for the link Gary. I ordered the book this morning. I can just see the smile on Al @ NOE's face as this will necessitate a lot more moulds.  Gp

Attached Files

Geargnasher posted this 28 June 2018

I have had difficulty paper patching for a rifle with no throat, when using soft alloy and smokeless powder.  The bullets tend to rivet in the case neck and rake the patch off like paper from a soda straw at the chamber entrance.   A tougher alloy, like wheel weight metal, will work ok but certain concessions must be made regarding bullet weight and nose shape.  If you haven't actually tried it, what you THINK will work doesn't always.  I have patched for 7mm-'08 and it needs some freebore and a decently long throat, unless you want to shoot 90 grain bullets or cast them of 40:1, patch to bore diameter, and bump them with black powder.

Attached Files

onondaga posted this 28 June 2018

Geargnasher,

You mention "patch to bore diameter". Bore diameter is ALWAYS smaller than throat diameter unless your rifle is truly screwed up by a previous experimenter. Ignore bore diameter!!! For the millionth time! The bore will size cast bullets that fit the throat if they are patched or bare no matter how large they are. If your patched bullets don't have a slide fit to the throat, they won't be stable on ignition and will wobble down the barrel and shoot all over the place. It is HARDER than pure lead bullets that are a problem with PPd bullets, the harder alloys cut patches up regardless of fit. Use soft pure lead for PPd bullets. The Lee Sizing lubricant and powdered graphite I mentioned on patches eliminate cutting problems with PPd bullets that fit the throat. If you ignore throat fit and fixate on bore fit, accuracy is happenstance. If you rely on pressure to bump up PPd bullets that are undersized, you are on trail of happenstance. You may get temporary/occasional accuracy but a myriad of variables will cause bullets to shoot all over the place whenever they want.  The Slide fit to the throat is a constant to eliminate those variables with stability.

 

Gary

Gary

Attached Files

Geargnasher posted this 28 June 2018

Gary, the gentleman said that his rifle effectively does not have a throat.   Your turn.

Attached Files

onondaga posted this 28 June 2018

Geargnasher, you said, "Gary, the gentleman said that his rifle effectively does not have a throat.   Your turn."

SO WHAT!  a chamber casting will give a measurable area for a slide fit of the bullet on chambering. You can pick a name for that if you don't want to call it "throat". If he wants to avoid accuracy by happenstance and convert to a slide fit bullet for stability, he will. Even if he means the throat is grossly oversize, the slide fit is correct for stability. If the area is undersized, it is junk for accuracy until that is fixed. The steep ball seat he mentions is also not relevant. Sure he can seat bullets to engage cast or PPd cast bullets to the ball seat, I do typically .010" engagement  on both steep and gentile ball seats and that increases stability in addition to a slide fit. But you really don't need that ball seat engagement with an actually good slide fit of the bullet on chambering that needs an additional 2 pounds of push to chamber beyond the push of a non contacting cast or PPd cast bullet..  Stable is stable and if you don't have it with cast, or cast PPd bullets they shoot all over the place and drive people out of the hobby with disappointment..

Gary

Attached Files

joeb33050 posted this 28 June 2018

I don't believe that the 28-30 was designed for, or many shooters used, paper patched bullets.

In 1983 I used a Stevens 44 in 28-30, Lyman 120? gr bullet, IMR4227, at the Coors match in Golden CO; came in 17th. No tricks, soft bullets, FIXED ammunition.

joe b. 

 

Attached Files

onondaga posted this 28 June 2018

Joe, the rifle was made in 1903. That is in the golden period for that style rifle winning matches with PPd bullets historically.  My primary assertion here has been that PPd bullets will shoot 10% better than his current groups with a bare bullet. I hope I have encouraged ten-mile to prove this. I would sure love to with that Stevens.

Gary

Attached Files

Geargnasher posted this 28 June 2018

OK then, never mind.

Attached Files

ten-mile posted this 29 June 2018

Well, I would certainly try PPd bullets if someone would send me some bullets of the proper diameter. There is no throat in my chamber and it is a very abrupt leade angle transitioning from the neck of the case to the rifling.  In fact, I had the Accurate 130B mould made with the front band at 0.278" and seat the bullet so the front band is fully engaged in the rifling.

I am pretty much in agreement with JoeB33050 with what Stevens intended with their original design.  I have never seen a factory PP Stevens cartridge but some might be out there.  I bought a couple of boxes of original UMC ammo at Tulsa this spring and the photo below shows what was inside them.  There were two different kinds of OP wads.  The blue ones had some kind of wax or plastic-like layer that was clearly intended to be waterproof.  The powder (2F or 3F) in that box was like it was made yesterday.  The box with the plain pasteboard wads and the powder was very slightly deteriorated for about an eighth of an inch with the rest being perfect. Primers are UMC 2-1/2 (Large Pistol size).

Another thing I know is that Pope made a number of 28-30 barrels and liked the 28-30 in his own shooting.  How did he make the chamber?  I have not yet talked to anyone who has one.

 

 

Attached Files

Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 29 June 2018

28-30, heh ?? ... that rang a bell ... so i browsed thru my pdf of _ bullet's flight _ ... by dr. mann .... and about page 130 ++ ... he mentions a 28-30 pope barrel, ...  here is a teaser  :

*********************

*********************

i have always thought :: ... wow, what could this guy have accomplished with a laptop and a spreadsheet ...

ken

Attached Files

mashburn posted this 22 February 2019

To the best of my knowledge, you have a very beautiful Schutzen Rifle. I probably miss spelled that word. In the Schutzen game plain base lead bullets only are allowed. In the modern competition most shooters breech seat. In the time period of your rifle, muzzle seating was the thing. Some modern shooters still  seat from the muzzle and these rifles have no throat.That would account for your rifle not having any leade. They didn't want to deform the bullet. The idea was to engrave the bullet by the rifling when they seated from the muzzle and no change made to the bullet driving bands.A lot of these rifles had false muzzles so that they could be started perfectly straight. The well known barrel maker and shooter,Pope, used muzzle seating and his rifles also had take down barrels. I may be wrong but like I said,I think I am correct. Regardless you have a very beautiful rifle even if i'm disagreed with. The only thing I see wrong is it isn't mine.

David Cogburn

 

 

David a. Cogburn

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • delmarskid
Show More Posts
Close