Cast bullet leading and excessive smoke in 40 S&W

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Last Post 02 January 2009

CBA Member

GBertolet posted this 08 October 2008

I shoot IPSC with a Para Ordinance 40 S&W. I have a Lyman 4 cav mold 175 gr. #401638. My bullets are cast of wheel weights 401.5 dia. I have tried 50-50 alox,Lyman Orange Magic and Lee Liquid alox. The Liquid Alox is the only lube that does not lead. All lubes smoke horribly. My load is 4.5 gr. Intl Clays for 950 fps. This mold is a bevel base. Is gas leaking around the base? Does the Liquid alox seal the bore from blow by? What is the best way to remove the bevel off the mold if this will fix this problem?

What lube does not smoke?

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12 Comments

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Standard Member

CB posted this 08 October 2008

I think you have a couple of different issues here. First the leading, you may want to consider heat treating your bullets or adding a bit more tin to your alloy to bring up the hardness.

Second most lubes smoke to a degree. Especially when used indoors. The reason for the smoke is the lube burns. Not all lubes burn, but 50/50 does and is most likely the worst. I would change lubes to a synthetic based lube like my Voodoo Red. I shoot it indoors at those velocities without hardly any smoke.

I do not care for bevel based molds for the reason you suspect. Hot gas leaks around the base of the bullet and it will lead easier than flat based molds.

You may want to look into a custom mold, like one from Veral Smith at LBT. I am sure there is someone on the forum that shoots 40 S&W and you may get some other suggestions from them.

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Standard Member

LeadHead posted this 08 October 2008

Two things to check........ Bullet hardness and sized diameter.

I like bevel-based bullets mainly due to “clean” bases and ease of loading into cases.

If your bullets are under-sized, that can lead to leading.

Getting your tin content up to even 1% will make a big difference.

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Standard Member

runfiverun posted this 10 October 2008

try 402 as your size

alox smokes , with the load you are running sounds like a duplicate of a 45 acp load.

45's have been known to sometimes like harder alloys. and some have been known to shoot better and better with harder and harder alloys.

but i would start with 402 size and the regular lube as a starting point.

maybe a change of powder, next.

my reasoning for this, when you put alox on your bullet you are making it larger hence the no leading.

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Standard Member

Lloyd Smale posted this 11 October 2008

Id suggest a couple things. First it wouldnt probably hurt to lap the barrel of your gun. Then i would try a slower burning powder. Something like uinversal clays or power pistol would probably work better and keep the smoke at a more liveable level. Any of the lubes your listed should be good enough to prevent leading at that level. More info on the leading would help. Is it at the start of your barrel or at the end of your barrel or about even for the entire lenght of the barrel. Usually a poor lube will show up as leading toward the end of your barrel. Sizing to 402 would be another suggestion but theres not gurantee that they will feed in your gun. As far as your alloy goes. WW should be plenty hard for that velocity but some semi autos have shallow rifling and give better accuracy with a harder bullet. If the bullet shoots well out of your gun i wouldnt be to quick to cut the bevel out of the mold. Theres no guarantee that the bullet will still shoot well after you do it. One more thought for you is how much leading are your getting? If it is only light leading and it doesnt get worse as you shoot more dont even worry about it. If the gun will hold its accuracy for enough rounds to finish the days shooting its not a big deal. Usuallly light leading can be taken care of buy shooting a couple jacketed bullets down the barrel at the end of the day. As to lubes smoking thats something your going to have to live with. All lubes will smoke some a little less then others but not enough to really make a diffence. Alox lubes are about the worse offenders. Lbt blue is one that is a little better. In my experince a lube like a hard lube that is used on comercial bullets smokes less but it is a poor lubricant. Most good lubes smoke. when i shoot ppc indoors i just switch to a jacketed bullet.

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Standard Member

hunterspistol posted this 18 October 2008

I just bought some Carnuba Red and it's a hard red lube(requires a heater) without much of a scent to it. http://wwwLsStuff.com/lube>http://wwwLsStuff.com/lube

Even the free sample of soft lube they sent doesn't smell. I'd guess a hard lube would smoke less, Carnuba Red is made for high velocity rifle applications though.

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Standard Member

Lar45 posted this 28 October 2008

Hi, just saw this thread.

In my experience, the lube with Alox in it will smoke more than others. Our Carnauba Red lube generally does not smoke much if at all. Sometimes it doesn't work as well in lower velocity or lower pressure rounds. For those situations, a softer lube can work well. Our BAC lube does have some Alox in it, but a much smaller amount. This lube generally does not smoke and has been working great in semi-auto pistols.

If you'd like we can send you some free samples of both to try. The samples are about 1/3 of a stick. It's not enough to load your sizer full, but you can smear some lube in the grooves, then run through the sizer to clean things up and go shoot 30-40 rounds to see how it does.

As previously mentioned, hardness and size can also be factors.

Our website is http://www.lsstuff.com/lube>www.lsstuff.com/lube if we can be of help.

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CBA Member

codarnall posted this 04 November 2008

When we were allowed to shoot here in Ventura Ca. we'd do through 500+ rounds of Bear Creek beveled base bullets a month. They're moly coated and maybe wax of some kind, But no visible lube. Velocities were closer to 850, however, leading was never a problem. Look somewhere besides the beveled base for your problem. Charlie

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Standard Member

CWME posted this 18 December 2008

I got a Wolf barrel for my Glock 22 .40SW so I can shoot cast out of it. The barrel has only had 52 rounds of jacketed rounds put through it. I used the new barrel for my pistol qualifications this year for work.

Anyway I mention it because the new barrel might be causing my issues...

I shoot a similar bullet cast from a Lee 6 Cav Mold. It is 175 gr, sized .401 with Orange magic lube. I have been using universal powder for my loads.

I started with the min charge and had decent accuracy but a light leading started an inch or so after the chamber. I found some bullets in the banking and the Lube was still in the grooves. After seeing all the lube on the recovered bullets I thought a heavier load might “upset” the hard lube a bit better?? Sound reasonable?? well..

I really didn't see much of a difference with the mid range powder charge I tried.

When I get a chance I want to try the suggestion of .402 or as cast with Lee Liquid Alox.

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Standard Member

CB posted this 21 December 2008

I don't shoot the 40s, but the 45s. I use a synthetic lube, no bevel base bullets, plus I heat treat them to make them harder. If you add tin you may not realize further hardness, maybe tin and antimony increase in your alloy, but HTing has worked for me as well as a synthetic lube.

Jerry