Marlin 1889 in .38-40

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  • Last Post 31 August 2010
Rodfac posted this 22 December 2008

Does anyone have any experience with .38-40 Marlins? I've got an 1889 model with a pristine barrel that leads up pretty quickly. I'm thinking that the bullets are under sized and/or that I need better lube. I'm using 50/50 alox/beeswax now. I've tried Phoenix' 180 gr hard cast TWC @ .401” with 8.0 gr of Unique for 2” at 50 yds. Also, Lyman's 401433 with the same load but 6” gps at 50. Hornady's 180 FP swagged TWC with 14.5 gr of 4759 goes into 2” at 50 as well. All of the above lead up the bore in 30 rounds or so. I'm looking for a plinking bullet that will give me a longer lead free shooting session. The Lyman drops from the mold at .401” and I've been casting it from WW sweetened with just enuf tin to allow it to cast easily. Any help would be appreciated. Regards, Rodfac

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R. Dupraz posted this 22 December 2008

Rodfac:

Do you know what the groove diameter of you barrel is?

 

RD

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det posted this 22 December 2008

For Cowboy Action I have been using Lazer cast 180 grain and 5 grains of Bullseye in my 1889 Marlin with no leading problems.

Det

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6pt-sika posted this 23 December 2008

I've got a Marlin 1894 of 1905 vintage I believe in 38-40 and mine does pretty well with bullets cast in the RCBS plain base 180 grain Cowboy mold .

 

All mine are cast of just WW's with no additives . Also I size at .401".

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Rodfac posted this 24 December 2008

Thanks guys...geez I hate to slug a barrel. I'll do it and size appropriately larger. This is the obvious solution but I am interested in the specific bullets as mentioned in your replies.

This particular rifle, a 24” model was redone, but expertly, in the last decade. The machined edges of the action are somewhat rounded, but the barrel appears new. Go figure. I would not have thought that a Marlin barrel, appropriately marked for an 1889 piece would have been available. I've got about $700 in the gun, and really like the looks; bought it after looking at the barrel, figuring it would be a good shooter. The stock is original, but with a restored new oil finish, and retains most of the original patina. Most if not all of the case hardening coloration is gone from the lever and butt plate as well. New, it must have been spectacular. The sights are a little different. The front was a pin and/or post flip up, which I removed and replaced with a Lyman bead for practicality reasons, and the rear is a semi-buckhorn of unusually deep configuration. Finally, there's a Lyman tang mounted peep, with a two position, flip up aperature, that is selectable with a finger nail. Up, it's for well lighted target work, and down, it's more of a ghost ring for hunting. If I can get #1 son to help, I'll try to post some pics.

I'll slug the bore today and report back. Thanks for the replies. Rodfac

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Rodfac posted this 24 December 2008

Oh what a Christmas surprise, my basement's got a leak. So in between shop vaccing the water incursion, I slugged the bore and got .408". After playing around with a set of .45 LC , .38-40, & .41 Magnum Lyman 310 tool dies, a batch of 210 gr .41 mag cast SWC's, my Lyman 450 sizer with the .410” sizer in place and finally the .38-40 Lee seating die, I thought I'd come up with a solution to the obviously undersized bullets...

I sized the 210 gr SWC down to .410 from .412, cuz that was as small as I could get 'em with the dies on hand. Then opened up the .38-40 case with the 310 tool .41 Mag expander to accept that bullet. The .45 LC dies provided the necessary shell bushing cuz the .38-40 one was missing...(later found that the #2 bushing for .30-06 will work as well).

Setting up the .38-40 Lee seater/crimper in my press, I tried to seat the bullet. No go at least in the normal way. The bullet seated all right, but it was the crimping shoulder that did it! At least with this set of dies, I'll need to open up the seating chamber a bit. (The 310 set of .38-40's is also missing the seater!)

I got enuf of a tight fit on the bullet to at least try it in the Marlin with the bolt pulled out but promply found that it wouldn't seat all the way into the chamber. The good news was that I'd had the sense to try it with the lever and bolt removed, avoiding a jam! The newly minted round is too fat up in the neck area...so back to the drawing board....and over to the shop vac again to slurp up some add'l water.

So...Short of opening up the rifle's throat and the corresponding Lee Seater/Crimper die, I'm at a loss if using a bullet .002” over bore size is the answer.

Any of you guys have similar problems?

I'm wondering if taking a cerro cast of the throat and first inch or so of the rifling might give me what I need to see, or at least explain to some gunsmith with a sense of humor.

I'd heard that older Marlins run somewhat larger than Winchester's in bore size but .008” over the NRA “Handloading” book's listed nominal .400 seems excessive. The loaded rounds are:  with a .410” bullet seated, the neck outside dia. is .4245"...this is the one that won't chamber. With a .401” bullet seated, the outside neck dia. is .4145".

So what's next? Maybe soft bullets (1:20) sized as large as possible to allow chambering, over a dose of quick burning Bulllseye or something similar and hope for obturation to 'bump' the bullet up to bore diameter? Or maybe, really hard and a very light powder charge and hope for a bullet that 'rattles' down the bore, gives good accurcacy and doesn't lead the rifling. (Yeah, I know...but it's Christmas Eve and I still believe...). Or...maybe resort to the much maligned but often effective jacketed bullet?

Your collective thoughts are eagerly awaited. Regards and a very Merry Christmas to all. Rodfac

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RicinYakima posted this 24 December 2008

Rodfac,

I have never worked with the 38/40, but a friend and I have done some work with the older 44/40 Winchester '73's. He found that the over sized bores, to allow for BP fouling build up (?), would work with original style BP bullets cast 30/1 and loaded with Red Dot. His “as cast” bullets were .429 and groove was .433. He lubes with LLA and seats the bullet to crimp over the ogive. The only issue is that if he puts more than 3 in the magazine the bullets recess into the cases. Powder started out at 4.0 grains and he worked up to 5.5 grains when leading stopped. This is below the minimum listed load, so you are on your own.

Hope some of this is useful, Ric

 

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Rodfac posted this 24 December 2008

Many thanks Ric...I've seen you on CSP a time or two. I'm about out of ideas and ready to maybe rebore to .44-40. Son, here for Christmas suggested that. I've never tried it and may be looking for a gunsmith who can do the work. The rifle is a beaut, well balanced and the finish work is excellent. Regards Rodfac

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6pt-sika posted this 26 December 2008

Rodfac wrote: Many thanks Ric...I've seen you on CSP a time or two. I'm about out of ideas and ready to maybe rebore to .44-40. Son, here for Christmas suggested that. I've never tried it and may be looking for a gunsmith who can do the work. The rifle is a beaut, well balanced and the finish work is excellent. Regards Rodfac I believe before I went to that extreme I'd get a chamber cast made and then possibly have the chamber recut to use the loaded rounds you made using the 41 mold .

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w30wcf posted this 27 December 2008

Rodfac,

Sorry to learn of your problems with your vintage 1889 Marlin.  

OVERSIZED BARRELS - I have a WInchester '73 .44 W.C.F.made in 1882 that has a .433” groove diameter which is .007” over spec. Interesingly, with pure lead bullets (.426” dia.)  and b.p., it shoots fairly well (2” @ 50 yards).  In speaking with the late George Madis (WInchester Guru) some years ago about the oversized bore/groove, he said that back in those days, tolerances on interior barrel dimensions were somewhat loose because the b.p. ammunition would function well in varying bore diameters since the soft lead bullet would bump up to the bore/groove diameter. That all changed with the advent of smokeless powder and jacketed bullets. 

SUCCESS - I had purchased  some Winchester .44-40 Cowboy ammunition prior to finding my '73.  With its .428” hard cast bullets, it was hopelessly inaccurate, with all bullets keyholing.  On a lark, I decided to pull the bullets, dump the fast burning pistol powder and reload with slower burning 4227. I then added PSB (poly shot buffer) and reseated the .428” diameter bullets. VIOLA!  5 rounds printed into 5/8” at 25 yards! The PSB acted as a gas check, keeping the powder gases behind the bullet, allowing it to center itself in the oversized bore and transverse it undisturbed.

LARGER BULLETS - At the time I had a 427098 mold and had some bulets I had made fom w.w. + 2% tin alloy. They measured .429” diameter. To make them larger in diameter, I made a .435” dia. pin that would fit down into a fired .44-40 case, stopping at the base of the neck. I then adjusted the bullet seating die so that the case neck stopped just short of the bottom of the case neck in the die since the o.d. of the case neck was too big to fit.

I placed a bullet into the case, an it into the die and brought the seating stem down to touch. Backing the case out slightly, I turned the seating stem down 1/4 turn and ran the case back into the die. I then removed the bullet and measured it.  I then made succesive adjustments until I had bullets bumped to .434"-.435” diameter. Fortunately, I found that my '73 would accept loaded cartridges with .434"-.435” bullets which it shot well ( 1 1/2” @ 50 yards) with no filler required.:D  I have since had a mold made that drops bullets at the appropriate diameter.

YOUR .38-40 - Options - 1.)Based on your fired case dimensions, what diameter bullet would your rifle accept?  I have the Lyman .38-40 bullet mold and could bump some to that diameter for you to try.  2.) Another option would be to try some PSB  3.)As RicinYakima indicated, soft undersized bullets with the right smokeless powder combination can bump up bullets (Ric, if your friend would have .10” or so removed from the bottom of his resizing die, the neck would be long enough to support the base of the bullet to prevebt telescoping.) 4.) Lead bullets and b.p. 5.)Have the neck area of the chamber opened up to the appropriate diameter. 6.) Reduce the neck thickness of the brass (which is already thin). Perhaps a different brand of brass would be thinner and would work(?).

SIncerely,

w30wcf

                                      

 

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Rodfac posted this 27 December 2008

W30...you've given me some interesting material to ponder. We're leaving for the N.C. Smokies tomorrow so it will be a week before I can back to the problem. I've never used a buffer of any kind, but the PSB may offer the easiest means of getting decent accuracy. I'll get with it on our return and report back. Many thanks all of you...results to follow in two weeks. Regards, Rodfac

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w30wcf posted this 27 December 2008

Rofac,

Thought of another possibility..... a hollow base bullet. Buffalo Arms has a hollow base 194 gr. .410” diameter 20/1 bullet. http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,4219.html>http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,4219.html                                     THey could be sized down to whatever diameter your rifle would accept then would expand to fit the barrel upon firing.:D

I just noticed that it is a heeled bullet which means that the rearward portion is undersized. If you decided to try these, I would suggest giving Buffalo Arms a call to see what the heeled diameter is. 

Regarding the PSB, I would suggest a slower burning powder like 2400 or 4227. Then put enough PSB in the case that it would be compressed at least .15” to keep everything in place.  The addition of PSB reduces case capacity so keep that in mind when deciding how much powder to use.

Good luck.

w30wcf

 

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w30wcf posted this 28 December 2008

Rodfac,

I see that  Rapine makes a hollow based .38-40 bullet mold. http://www.ch4d.com/>http://www.ch4d.com/

Have a safe trip.

w30wcf

 

 

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gregg posted this 31 August 2010

Got you covered buy a Redding 3-Die Set 38-40 WCF Set of dies with the ӢProfile or Taper Crimp Seater Die you can taper the front of the brass to be able to load the rounds. I have run into the same thing as you in a 1889 marlin SRC made in 1892. Also with a 44-40 Rossi that likes .431 bullets. Redding dies because of the taper crimp make this all work for me. HEY i will buy lee dies if I can . Redding just work for me on the WCF dash rounds

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