Lube Purge

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  • Last Post 30 October 2014
cityboy posted this 03 February 2009

I have read comments about flyers caused by too much bullet lube.  Very often I will get a good 4-shot group and have the 5th sticking out like a sore thumb. If this is the cause, what do I do about it? For years I have been using the NRA alox lube made by Tamarck, but I think they are out of business now.

What are your thoughts on the subject; and if lube purge is the cause of the flyers, how can it be avoided?

Jim

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RicinYakima posted this 03 February 2009

Cityboy,

This is my opinion only, and take it for what it is worth.

When I first started match shooting about 10 years ago, I filled all the lube groooves with lube. I had flyers. When I started just filling the space over the gas check and one lube groove, flyers were reduced. This is with NRA or the modern lubes.

The only time I fill them all is with plain based bullets that will be shot in original black powder lever actions or my Trapdoor Springfield.

The old Lyman sheep tallow and graphite lube needed all you could get, but that is not the case now.

Ric

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linoww posted this 04 February 2009

Once in fairly cold weather i was shooting the SAECO 301 196g 30 cal in the 30BR@about 2000 fps.I was using RCBS Green pistol lube and shooting a bit over 3” 10 shot groups @ 200 yds.Upon the advice of another CBA shooter i scraped the lube out of the groove leaving only the small area above the GC lubed.Groups shrunk to under 2.5” and one was under 1-3/4"And all grouping was more “clustered” than the full lubed bullets.In this case lube(too much) seemed to be the culprit.This is my only experience with what could be called Lube Purging. I now do as Ric does lubing bullets with good results.

George Damron

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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CB posted this 04 February 2009

Years ago I used to use Tamarack NRA Formula Alox lube because a local supplier sold it here. Now that I've come to know a few competition shooters out there, I know of none who use Tamarack as their favorite NRA Alox lube. I don't have any luck with it either.

The advice you got of just lubing one grease groove is good. If you follow some of the posts here on the CBA forum or over on Castboolits forum, you will find a few lubes that are the most popular and work. OR look at the CBA website under the CBA match results at the top ranking shooters for an idea of what lubes are successful...............Dan

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GBertolet posted this 06 February 2009

 Could it be that the rotational forces of the bullet spinning, throw off some of the lube and cause an imbalance inducing flyers? I have heard of this theory. If true your method of lubing only one groove, leaving much less of an influence makes sense.

Could using liquid alox with no lube to sling, accomplish the same as lubing one groove?

One lube I purchased but have not yet tried, Voodo-Lube is supposed to be easily slung off, right after it leaves the barrel, eliminating that possibility. When the weather breaks I hope to try it. I have had similar experiences at times with an unexplained flyer in grouping, so I an anxious to try it.  I'll try alox in one groove, liquid alox and Voodoo-Lube and see if I can see a difference between the three.

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cityboy posted this 06 February 2009

I do a lot of chronographing and the sky screens do get splattered with lube. I have no idea if the loss of lube throws the bullets out of balance. My guess is no. The lube on any 30 cal bullet is only about 1 grain or less.

Jim

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hunterspistol posted this 06 February 2009

     I recently came into some Tamarack lube, have 1/2 stick of it left. It brings back some memories.  My grandmother had tamarack trees in a hedge, said they used the scent in bullet lube- she told me this 40 years ago.  Sure enough, it's the same scent.  I haven't been able to find anymore of this lube though.

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linoww posted this 07 February 2009

I swore Tamarack was 100 % NRA formula.I shot up a tub of it in the. 1990's and it seemed to do the same as other NRA formulas.

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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Recluse posted this 28 February 2009

As far as “unslung” lube causing boolit deviation, I'll certainly buy it. I'm a pilot and know firsthand what the slightest change to an air control surface can do. Faster you're going, the more noticable and drastic the change.

Seems perverse, but for my faster boolits, I use less lube--the lube just has to be of a higher quality and known to do the job.

I like the mix I use with LLA and JPW thinned just a skosh with mineral spirits. This has served me extraordinarily well over time and continues to be my “base lube” for all boolits that I choose to tumble lube--which is a lot.

Presently experimenting with two different lube formulas for higher velocity boolits (magnums and rifles) in which less can be used and only one lube groove on the boolit will be needed at most.

So far, with one formula I've got pistol magnum rounds consistently up to 1500fps with very good accuracy and no leading whatsoever. Only problem is a little too much smoke. Not much, mind you, just more than I wanted.

The other formula is starting to blow me away it's doing so well. 2000+fps easily with virtually no smoke, no leading, very consistent accuracy and only a minimum needed on the boolit, flows easily through a lubesizer, and is fairly easy to make. . .

I have very high hopes for this formula. And, I stumbled across the “base” ingredient purely by accident while rummaging around in the hangar last fall. B)

:coffee:

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Notlwonk posted this 26 March 2009

Recluse wrote:  .

I stumbled across the “base” ingredient purely by accident while rummaging around in the hangar last fall. B)

:coffee: :(Soooo, are you going to just leave us hanging.:D

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Hoppy posted this 25 March 2010

Jim-- I've read about lube-purging fliers more than I've had trouble with them, but apparently they may be caused by over-lubed bullets. Sometimes this means that too many of the lube grooves on the bullet were filled with lube--the Loverin designs were apparently some of the worst offenders.

The solution is to readjust your lubrisizer (or whatever) so that lube is applied to fewer lube grooves in the process. This is supposed to reduce the flier problem. I see no harm in trying this, but make sure that you don't reduce the lube so much that there is a leading problem. As long as there is a “lube star” on the muzzle of the gun after several shots, you are probably lubing enough.

Hoppy

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KenK posted this 25 March 2010

I'm not sure what the official definition of lube purging is. Is there consensus?

I have heard the opinion that lube builds up in the bore and then “purges” itself out; causing a flier.

Now we are also talking about the lube causing an out of balance condition by sticking to the bullet too long or coming off unevenly.

It makes sense to me the less lube you start with the less any out of balance condition can arise. On the other hand, maybe if the lube slings off immediately on the bullets exit from the muzzle, it doesn't matter.

I know shooting at low velocity with a slow twist barrel I get lube splatters on the target all the way out to 100 yards. I don't see how that can be good.

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mrbill2 posted this 25 March 2010

I don't know how anybody can determine that there bullet are in “perfect balance".I read this all the time. When I go the a benchrest match I see people shooting bullet that come from a mold where the cavities are punch mark so that they can determined which cavity the bullet was cast. If you look at the bullet you can see this little extra bump of lead sticking on the bullet nose. Ask anyone and they will tell you “that doesn't hurt the bullet". But yet we are concerned about how the bullet lub come off the bullet on the way to the target, it will unbalance the bullet and cause the flyer. I don't buy this balance thing because no one can show me how they balance their bullet to start with. Just my 2 cents

mrbill2

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CB posted this 26 March 2010

KenK wrote: I'm not sure what the official definition of lube purging is. Is there consensus?

Lube purging is theoretical, since it can't be proven as a central consensus. Most generally the lube purge condition is a combination of components which causes a flyer, usually 1 in 5 shots. The component which probably has the most effect is the lube, then probably the powder reside. Ambient influences such as temperature and humidity are also a part of the combination. Then of course, the physical condition of the bore of the rifle in use.

Either way in dealing with the off condition (flyers), less lube most always results in tighter groups. I have lubed both grooves and shot bad, lubed one groove and shot good groups. I have also just lubed the gas check groove (on bullet designed CBs which have a large groove at the gas check) and shot the best groups.

Maybe switching to a different powder with a different powder residue may have solved the problem? (which isn't the lube's fault) You just have to tweak the combination of conditions you re dealing with. Remember, this pertains to improving match shooting scores. Hunters probably have no concerns with minute-of-deer loads................Dan

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Fred Sinclair posted this 28 March 2010

“Accuracy is a multitude of trifles” and I think Dan's explanation about covers it all.

 Lube stars or muzzle stars are not just present with cast bullets and will also be seen when using jacketed bullets.

When shooting jacketed bullets “ambient influences” seem to have a bigger effect, on the size of the star, than the burn residue. However it is the inefficiency of your load combination that produces the material to create a jacketed or cast star.

 Most often jacketed loads are shot at greater efficient pressures than cast and consequently produce less residue than a reduced cast load using a like burning rate powder. Introduce the lube factor and now the star can become quite noticeable.

 I remember a lube comment from one of the “old timers” that goes something like; “if ya got it on the crown it ain't doing ya no help”. I have found that to pretty much be a fact. 

 Kinda” like tuning the dirt bike eh' Dan, if it isn't gray in the pipe it isn't tuned right.

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Slingshot_IL posted this 13 April 2010

I did a search on the net for Tamarack and came up with a company called Tamarack corporation so I decided to give them a call. I spoke with a nice lady and she said that it was the owners hobby and is retired now and the hobby has fallen by the wayside.

Fortunately, I still have about 10 sticks left from a 100 tube purchase back in the 80's. Sorry to see it go, was and still is a good lube.

Jeff / Slingshot

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OU812 posted this 15 October 2014

Hand dipping cast bullets in thinned (mineral spirits) alox and allowing to dry on wax paper will put less lube evenly in grooves. Alox will puddle around bases at first, so just relocate bullets on wax paper until puddling stops. It will take about 12 hours for lube to harden or solvents to evaporate.  3 parts alox to 1 part mineral spirits. I also put  one lead bullet  in plastic bottle to mix alox better when shaking bottle.    Pour thinned lube in cup then dip. I use a paper Dixie cup that is cut off about 1” high. Reuse cup later.   I always size and install gas check dry when sizing (nose first). After all bullets are sized I then dip bullets in alox and then set on wax paper base first.   Fired bullets leave no lube star on muzzle crown, but I get no leading in barrel after 50 shots (hot barrel).

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operator posted this 23 October 2014

A timely resurface of this post.

I have just given up on LBT Blue Soft after about 18 months of frustration. Can anybody suggest what I can soften it with, possibly Vaseline and by how much?

Shooting targets with it at the weekend saw thee in the 1 inch bullseye and they one shot 3 inches to the left at 9 o'clock and the next 3 inches right at 2 o'clock. Look up the barrel when I got home and it is nice and clean, excepts for three random black patches.

With LBT Soft Blue I have the highest velocity, best groups and no leading, however I have had random shots from my heavy barrel target rifle go up to 6 inches out of the group. Bullet is the RCBS 165 silhouette, only one lube groove so I can't be over lubing it. Best group so far is .355 for five at 100m.

This lube doesn't seem to seal around the bullet before the case neck expands and seals the bore. I get burn marks and lube back along the cases, even on the bolt face. Never had this kind of trouble with Lee's NRA alox type lube.

Any help with cutting the LBT appreciated

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OU812 posted this 23 October 2014

Bullet fit, alloy hardness and type powder used is probably your problem. I get more consistant grouping when using strait linotype bullets sized dry nose first. Some base first lube machines will deform your bullets when sizing and lubing. So I never size and lube base first.

The RCBS 165Sil is on the small side (.309-.310 diameter as cast)and that is using Linotype. Softer alloys will create smaller diameters. Make sure your bullet bands fit “slightly” smaller than free bore. I like no more than .0005 clearance. Also make sure nose or bore ride section fits snug to barrel. My RCBS 165 bullets measure .3015 at nose which is perfect for my barrel.   My Shillen barrel 308 has a minimum SAMMI 308 chamber with a .90 length free bore, .310 diameter and steep throat taper which is perfect for this bullet.   20 - 22grs of IMR 4759 and Wolf LR primers work good in this rifle.  Thinned Lee Alox lube hand dipped.

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operator posted this 24 October 2014

Thanks for your reply U812

I don't think bullet fit is the reason for my trouble. Prior to switching to the LBT Blue Soft everything was fine, I went to the high performance lube hoping to improve accuracy and lift velocity, particularly for 200m matches.

The RCBS 165 Sil bullet I have, cast 1:1 lead/linotype, mics .3095 on the bands and .303 on the nose. A little larger on the nose than I have seen reported on cast bullet forums. I seat it so I have a little resistance closing the bolt and have land marks on the nose.

I know the problem is lube purging after seeing the black patches up the barrel in three places. The rest of the barrel was clean with a light grey colour and no unburned power. The black areas were about a third of the diameter of the barrel.

After seeing your 314299 bullet I got the urge to try mine, an old 311299, which casts 313/303. Just come back from the shed and have a few made to try shortly.

Cheers

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Brodie posted this 24 October 2014

Lube purging probably explains why I could never get those Loverlin bullets to shoot.   They were full of lube grooves and I filled them all.  But back then(In the late 60's and early 70"s) I did not have this as a reference.  Brodie

B.E.Brickey

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 24 October 2014

in light of current discussions regarding uber-teching, i hesitate to bring the following up; ... ok, hesitation ended.

with multigroove bullets, ...stay with me here ... it might be interesting to see if there is a difference in results ...between filling the front groove ... and the rear, or gas-check groove.

my thought is that a forward groove lube would correlate to barrel conditioning, while rear lube might correlate to base deformation.

also ..

from 22 rimfire, we know that you have to shoot a dozen shots just before record shots .. this has to do with conditioning the bore. ( fouling shots ) ; of interest is that you have to keep shooting often or the barrel condition goes away.

hmmm ... when i was trying moly lube on my match rimfire, i found longer times between accuracy fall-off if i only used moly on every third bullet.... and very little at that. molly-purging? or OVER-CONDITIONING ? maybe john's ultra smooth barrel only wants lube every third bullet ... maybe lubing every bullet over-lubes that barrel ? does bullet lube only condition the barrel .. and not much to do with the bullet being ” slicker ” ?

would lubing just every third bullet , one groove, cut john's groups in half ? and with minimum ( just right ) lube, does he need to shoot ten before it settles in, then keep shooting every 30 seconds ?

i gotta get an accurate rifle together .. then i would only aggravate myself.

but maybe Goldilocks knew something.

ken

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Brodie posted this 24 October 2014

Ken;  It sounds to me like a subject you could expend a treamendous amount of components  while trying to quantify.  At what point does a sample size become statistically significant?  When do you stop?  When you run out of components?  And, if a certain falue of lubed grooves works in your rifle will it work the same in another one? Are you trying to answer the question or prove a particular hypothesis for yourself, or to improve the match accuracy of all multi-grooved bullets? I better quit I'm starting to sound like Joe and my old Graduate Adviser, and that was a long time ago. Brodie

B.E.Brickey

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 24 October 2014

old coot

good question :: should we advance toward the secret ( s ) of smaller than 2 moa groups ... joe's musings have been circling this philosophical query , are we ( 1 ) not serious enough ? ... ( 2 ) serious ... ( 3 ) too serious ... fanatical, or more kindly .. obsessive ?

i think the answer is ;; WE is really an assortment of ME s and I s .

i like to believe that in most people is a little spark to make the anthill just a tad better than it was a week ago .

so, a year ago * I * was fat and happy blowing up milk bottles at 70 yards with an assortment of nostalgic rifles .. untested loads .. slightly wrinkled and mixed mold bullets ...30 year old funny smelling gunpowder .. just another old coot having fun ..

but * I * am slowly moving toward my former obsessive self ... , heh, looks kinda like home ... yep, lots of shooting ... where the heck did i put that borden action ... life is good ..

ken

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argie1891 posted this 26 October 2014

there are so many factors that affect accuracy that it is hard to point to any one of them. ric in Yakima has a Springfield that shot great he took it out of the stock one year to make sure there was no rust forming. to make a long story short it took him a year to get it to shoot like it did before. ( I know this as I heard him whine for the entire year) stock wood warping screw a bit loose and my favorite getting older.. now don't get me wrong getting older is not as big a problem as checking out early. I lube like ric and geroge the bottom groove and above the gas check. I am now shooting more and more plain base bullets. why spend 3 cents a shot if you don't have to? as far as that 5th shot flyer for some reason I have that happen on a regular basis. there has to be a reason and I think I found it. it has to be the shooter meaning me. bullets weighed brass weighed trimmed to exact length powder charge uniform. I wish I could blame the rifle or something else, but I cant. I usually just say oh golly gee wiz and or something like that and move along. argie1891

if you think you have it figured out then you just dont understand

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John Alexander posted this 26 October 2014 

          We should all probably keep in mind raghead's doubts that a barrel can count up to 4 and then throw one.  Although shooter error may be the most likely reason for a wide shot OTHER THAN NATURAL VARIATION keep in mind that if the shooter is causing them he also has to count to four and jerk -- or whatever.  

  I would respectfully suggest that anybody still claiming  "there has to be a reason” every time they see one out of five shots out of the group go back to TFS #229 and stare at the five individual 5-shot groups making up Lancasper's 25 shot group on page 5.  At least one of those “fliers” more than doubled the spread of the four other shots in its group. Notice how that “bad flier” and the “fliers” in each of the other four 5-shot groups all change from being “fliers" to just normal shots in a 0.5MOA 25 shot group.        Almost all “fliers” are just natural variation. If instead we believe they are each caused by a deficiency of that individual bullet or individual load or individual trigger pull, they turn into red herrings that will send us on wild goose chases after phantoms.   I wonder if lube purging might be a similar phantom.     John

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OU812 posted this 29 October 2014

Has anyone ever tested the soft SPG lube? I have used it in my 30-30 and it leaves a wet lube star on end of muzzle and no leading in bore. This soft lube seems very easy to sling off. I know Mr. Venturino likes using it in his old military rifles. He is also part owner of SPG

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admiral posted this 30 October 2014

OU812 wrote: Has anyone ever tested the soft SPG lube? I have used it in my 30-30 and it leaves a wet lube star on end of muzzle and no leading in bore. This soft lube seems very easy to sling off. I know Mr. Venturino likes using it in his old military rifles. He is also part owner of SPG Mike Venturino is not part owner of SPG anymore. He partnered with Steve Garbe back in the '80's to help get it off the ground via his writings about black powder rifles/cartridges.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 30 October 2014

just a note to remind us all that when we lose confidence in our ” grouping ” abilities with cast... to load up a couple dozen with top three MaryJane bullets and shoot some in same rifle to check your flier-creating abilities.

or, of course, shoot a box of cheap 22 rimfires and note that all go into a nice 1.0 inch group at 50 yards ...

even in testing weird theories, our baseline is what the rifle will do with mj loads.

ken

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John Alexander posted this 30 October 2014

Ken Campbell Iowa wroteor, of course, shoot a box of cheap 22 rimfires and note that all go into a nice 1.0 inch group at 50 yards ... While you are doing that you can also notice those groups with the rimfires (with cheap or expensive ammo) also have just as many fliers as your CB loads.  At least they do with all my rimfires -- same with the nice JB groups. John

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