357 magnum, 170 grain bullet, and Unique?

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max503 posted this 4 weeks ago

I'm looking to develop a heavy load for a 357 rifle using these components and was wondering if anyone has experience with it.  My manuals only show Unique used with lighter bullet weights.  Thanks.

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Squid Boy posted this 4 weeks ago

I think Unique is a bit fast for heavy bullets and I've had the best accuracy and velocity using H-4227. Squid

"Squid Pro Quo"

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99 Strajght posted this 4 weeks ago

I like both 14 gr. of 2400 and 14 gr. of H-4227 with a 170 gr. bullet.

 

Glenn

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 4 weeks ago

..if your barrel is 22 or 24 inches long, consider H110 for heavy loads ...

THE Good news:  where loads are hot enough to assure clean burning ... H110 gives really top velocities ... in these smaller cartridges .

THE Bad news ::  short barrels give a big muzzle flash and blast ... and there are reports of H110 being unsafe in reduced loads .... 

ken

 

 

 

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RicinYakima posted this 4 weeks ago

Back in the olden days, 5.5 grains was a common charge for the Lyman Keith 173 grain bullets for revolvers. That is not a maximum load, but a lot easier on the ears than the normal 2400 loads we used to use. FWIW

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max503 posted this 4 weeks ago

Maybe I'm answering my own question but I looked back at my notes and saw I had good luck with 4.2 grains of Unique with this bullet in a 38 case.  I'm basically wondering how high I can go in a 357 case.  My Lyman manual lists 5.0 grains as max in a 38 case but it doesn't list Unique for this bullet in a 357 load.  Maybe I should start at 5.0 and work up.

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RicinYakima posted this 4 weeks ago

If you want to use Unique, that is going to be the right start. Manuals don't list it because the max pressure load with Unique would be less than a start load with say 4227. Velocity sells (and gets space in loading manuals) where other useful loads are dropped.

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Little Debbie posted this 4 weeks ago

After looking at some old notes (circa1980) I’ve loaded 7 gr. of Unique with the Lyman 358429 that weighed 172 gr in .357 cases for revolvers. Velocity averaged 1110 FPS from a 6” barreled S&W M19. The source of the data is listed as Lyman. I assume the data was listed in the 3rd edition cast bullet manual or maybe 45th or 46th edition of the Lyman reloading handbook. Accuracy was so-so according to the notes, but then again the bullets were wheel weights sized .357”. I haven’t sized a bullet for .38 Spl/.357 bullet smaller than .358 for 20+ years. Back then I followed everything Lyman instructed. Hope this helps, if need be I can find the published source for this. I’m guessing 1400 FPS with that load in a 20” barrel.

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max503 posted this 2 weeks ago

I've been unable to start a new discussion so I'll try to post this here:

Seems my Rossi 357 rifle is leading.  I was shooting some 148 grain WC's loaded with 4.5 grains of Unique.  (I had to single-load these into the gun.)  At first they shot well then they shot poorly.  So I scrubbed the bore with Chore Boy copper and string trimmer line and shot 3, 3 shot groups.  You can see how the accuracy quickly falls off.  I shot the left bullseye first, then the middle, then the right.  Now I'm wondering what to do.  I could keep all my loads light, or I could invest in a gas check mold, a Lee push die, and some 35 caliber gas checks.  I don't really want to go down that road.  This gun is just a plinker and I want to avoid the extra expense and effort of the gas checks.  I've read where COW can be used in place of a gas check.  I've had good luck with shot buffer in my 44 magnum loads.

I was hoping some of the plain-base shooters could offer some advice.  For now I'll keep my loads light, but it would be nice to add a little more power to them for long range shooting.  I like to lob boolits at the 200 yard gong.  Thanks.

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Little Debbie posted this 2 weeks ago

Watch out for fillers. Lots of unexpected trouble. Need some info to help. I’m sure you can get what you want without going to gas checks. What type of alloy are you using? Lube? What range were you shooting your groups at? WC are good to about 50 yards and it doesn’t take much to destabilize then. They are very wind sensitive to. As you proceed looks like the bullets are starting to yaw. The only Rossi M92 I’ve seen had a fairly rough bore. Some times shooting a box of ammo with jacketed bullets does some good, smoothing and conditioning the bore. This is all part of the fun.

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max503 posted this 2 weeks ago

To answer your questions - I use a fairly hard alloy with a lot of linotype 'cause that what I've got.  I throw in bits and pieces of fishing weights from the river and range scrap.  Lube is LLA.  Those were shot at 50 yards, iron sights, of course.

My plan of action is to back off and stay low velocity until I can get consistent performance, and to see if indeed I have a leading problem.  To be truthful I'm having trouble actually seeing lead in the bore, but the gun shoots better after the Chore Boy treatment.  At least for a few rounds.

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358156hp posted this 2 weeks ago

Have you slugged your bore? Another potential issue is the throat sizing in the barrel. A pound slug of the throat is a really good idea here. You could be having bullet dimension issues.

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max503 posted this 2 weeks ago

Have you slugged your bore? Another potential issue is the throat sizing in the barrel. A pound slug of the throat is a really good idea here. You could be having bullet dimension issues.

I'll try that.  But why would the groups open up like they do?  They do this consistently.  First couple shots group nicely then groups turn to patterns.  I brush out the barrel and it starts all over.  Look at the picture in my previous post.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 2 weeks ago

... just because it is an easy test .... you might try letting your barrel cool 5 minutes between your 3 shot groups ... 

definitely do a chamber and throat image, and save it for future reference ... it is helpful in several ways.  not just diameters but helps you determine seating depths for odd bullets.

and as a last resort, you might try " fire-lapping " ...  >> last resort >>, and use only 6 or 8 shots of 600 or 800 grit ... some of my friends with Rossi 22RF have had to do this ... gets some worthwhile improvement ... but still never a Lilja ...

ken

 

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max503 posted this 2 weeks ago

I finally slugged the barrel and it measures .357.  One interesting thing - I started the slug at the muzzle and it went through the bore fairly easily until it got to the last inch or so in front of the chamber.  So I'm guessing I had some leading there, and the chore boy treatment isn't removing it.  Maybe I can blow it out with some low power jacketed bullet loads.  

I have some of that low-temp alloy for making chamber casts.  That will be my next effort after I get the leading out.

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BigMan54 posted this 3 days ago

Your Manuals aren't old enough. The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook #1 from the late 1950's lists 7.0grs with a #358429. 

I used to load 6.5grs because I got very good accuracy in all my .357 Revolvers, better then the 7.0gr charge.

I wouldn't load either of those loads today because that was 30yrs ago. Powders HAVE CHANGED !!!!!!!

For a warmish rifle load I would start with 2400, ya need a slower powder for that long bbl.

 

I SUGGEST YOU DO NOT USE ANY OF THE LOADS I LISTED

THEY ARE FOR INFORMATIONAL PURPOSES ONLY.

 

 

Long time Caster/Reloader, Getting back into it after almost 10yrs. Life Member NRA 40+yrs, Life S.A.S.S. #375. Does this mean a description of me as a fumble-fingered knuckle-draggin' baboon. I also drool in my sleep. I firmly believe that true happiness is a warm gun. Did I mention how much I HATE auto-correct on this blasted tablet.

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max503 posted this 3 days ago

Don't worry.  I'm not going to blow myself up.  Unique seems to work as well as anything I've tried.  Even 4759.  That 170 grain bullet in a 357 case just barely feeds through the gun.  

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Eutectic posted this 2 days ago

That is a classic picture of groups with alloy too hard. You probably want 1 to1 lino/lead or even softer.

See the post on determining alloy hardness with pencils. Here is a useful table

 

              HARDNESS-CHAMBER PRESSURE RELATIONSHIP

 

 

 

 

BHN

 

Minimum

Pressure

PSI

Maximum

Pressure

PSI

Alloy

%Tin / %Antimony

 

 

     Application

 

   5

 

7,200

 

17,800

 

Pure Lead

 

Black Powder

 

7

10,000

20,600

1% Tin

Black Powder

Better Casting

8

 

11,500

22,000

   2% Tin

 

Target Revolver

  10

 

14,400

 

25,000

5% Tin

1%2%

Standard Revolver

  12

17,300

27,800

WW,~ 0.2%/3%

Standard Revolver

  14

20,200

30,700

WW + 1% Tin

~1%/3%

Standard Revolver
Light Rifle

18

 

 

 

25,900

36,500

 2%/6%

5%/5%

Magnum Revolver

Auto Pistol

Light rifle

22

31,700

42,200

4%/12%

Linotype

 

Magnum Revolver

Auto Pistol

Rifle

24

 

34,600

 

45,100

 

HT WW

 

Rifle

 

26

 

37,400

 

48,000

 

HT WW

 

Rifle

 

28

 

40,300

 

50,900

 

9%/19%

Monotype

HT WW

Rifle

 

30

 

43,200

 

53,800

 

HT WW

 

Rifle

 

 

WW = Wheel Weights (Composition and hardness of wheel weights varies)

 

HT = Heat Treated        BHN = Brinell Hardness Number

 

PSI = Pounds / Square Inch

 

 

 

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max503 posted this yesterday

Funny you should say that. I am lino-rich. Bought numerous buckets of it a couple decades ago. Helped a guy clean out a garage. It's mostly what I use. At your suggestion I can try diluting it with range scrap.

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