Gas cheks

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  • Last Post 30 December 2009
acdman posted this 28 March 2009

Just bitching since I am frustrated. Price of gas checks have run up so they are on a par with primers. Primers have 3 compnents and involve technology to produce. Checks have one component and zero technology. Makes no sense except the old story of the run up in copper prices drove check prices. Copper prices have plummeted but not checks. Sounds like the old gasoline BS we get fed all the time.

Does anyone have any contacts within Hornady to see if we are going to get any relief?  Or, can we work on some type of CBA member discount?

Sorry, bad hair day..

Mike

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Balhincher posted this 28 March 2009

Good point about comparing primers and gas checks.  I don't know much about manufacturing but it seems to me that just the cup of a primer should be about equivalent to the gas check.  Then you have to fill it with explosive material and add the anvil.  Not to mention packaging them up in little individual compartments.  Why isn't doing all that a lot more expensive than stamping out gas checks?  There is a bit more material in gas checks I guess but that can't add enough cost to make them nearly the same price as primers.

It probably comes down to the small market for gas checks.  If there was more demand probably there would be some competition and the prices would be a little better.  Hornady has to make enough money for it to be worth their trouble to produce them and making something in low volumes is usually more expensive.  We just need to get more shooters using cast bullets.

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JeffinNZ posted this 28 March 2009

It's worth a try but I think you would have as much joy holding back the tide.

Vote with your feet and make you own perhaps.  As demand drops the price might also.

Cheers from New Zealand

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Wally Enga posted this 28 March 2009

Mike,

Another source of gas checks is Larry Blackmon's Gator Checks (Bullet Swaging Supply) in West Monroe, LA.

I believe he has a minimum order quantity of 50,000 so you will need to get a few other shooters to go in with you. I ordered 85,000 30 caliber from him a little over a year ago (when copper was really high) and they came in at about $18 per 1000.

I like them better then the Hornady's --- they seem a little more consistent.

Another way to get them is get in on one of the Group Buys over on the Cast Boolits Web Site ---  they run periodically for Gator Checks in the different calibers.

How's the knee coming along --- probably ready to start running marathons now.

Wally

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Hummer posted this 01 April 2009

I suspect it is not about cost of material but what the market will support price wise.

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Dicko posted this 22 December 2009

acdman wrote: Does anyone have any contacts within Hornady to see if we are going to get any relief?  Or, can we work on some type of CBA member discount?

Sorry, bad hair day..

Mike

Looks like a bulk order with Gator or make yer own !   What do you pay for Hornady in the US ?  $30/1000 ?   In South Africa we pay double that and can't get them at that price.   Recently there was a lot of discussion about it on the Cast Boolits forum, including much discussion of DIY.   Worth looking into.

Dicko

 

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kokojoe posted this 23 December 2009

I've wondered some of those same things.  I am currently working on a business plan to produce aluminum gas checks.  Initially, it will be for 30 caliber that will also cover the 7.62 since that is what I load.  I've been working on the plan about a month now and have a bit more to do.  I will keep you posted.

Balhincer pretty much hit it I think when he identified the small market.  Worse yet, what size is it?  I've done tons of research - probably in excess of 50 hours this past month - and still have to take just a somewhat educated, but more wild, guess at just what that market size is.  That is probably why Hornady has no competition whatsoever except for Gator.  They are likely the only one who really has some idea of what the gas check market is because they are the only ones commercially selling them.  I assume those numbers are a closely guarded secret.

I did a poll on cast boolits and about 70% said they would buy aluminum gas checks if they were 1/2 the price of copper.  That's what I'm trying to hit.

Lot's more planning, design, tooling, legal stuff, etc. to wrap up. 

The combination of all factors has probably inhibeted competition : small but unknown market size and capital investment required.

We'll see.

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cityboy posted this 23 December 2009

Balhincher wrote: It probably comes down to the small market for gas checks.  If there was more demand probably there would be some competition and the prices would be a little better.  Hornady has to make enough money for it to be worth their trouble to produce them and making something in low volumes is usually more expensive.  We just need to get more shooters using cast bullets.

You make a very good point. THe GC marker is very small so there is not enough demand to entice others to enter it.

Jim

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kokojoe posted this 23 December 2009

A couple years ago - I never imagined myself casting bullets.  Now I find it to be extremely rewarding.  With all that is taking place in politics, etc. I find it very valuable to be somewhat self-sufficient.  And, like many, I do have a little more time than money!!  So, when I can make a projectile when the cost of my material is only 10% of the cost of purchasing a jacketed bullet - I get motivated. 

I tend to think that there may be a revived interest.  But, it takes many who know to introduce others.  Without these online forums, etc. I never would have thought of it, actually. 

As good as the information is, it is pretty widely scattered and, at times, hard to find.  As we start to see more information organized and more readily available, that will help.

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shastaboat posted this 23 December 2009

Sounds like a business opportunity for someone to make GC's, 1/2 jackets, 3/4 jackets and even full jackets for swaging. I can't imagine the startup costs would be too much.

Because I said so!

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Dicko posted this 24 December 2009

kokojoe wrote: I've wondered some of those same things.  I am currently working on a business plan to produce aluminum gas checks.  Initially, it will be for 30 caliber that will also cover the 7.62 since that is what I load.  I've been working on the plan about a month now and have a bit more to do.  I will keep you posted.

This is a very interesting post and sums up the situation accurately, I think.   It is worse in South Africa.   If the market is small in the US, there is a lot less shooting going on here than in the US so you can imagine how small our market is.   Gas checks are becoming unobtainable because the few dealers who stocked them are no longer doing so precisely because they sell too few to bother.  I too have looked at making them but is it worthwhile ?   As for tooling, production is too slow with amateur tooling but some sort of automation is too expensive for the tiny sales.   But best of luck with your efforts because that's the spirit of free enterprise, to fill opportunity gaps.

I got an unusual enquiry a while back.   In SA there is an association of big bore shooters, 600NE and the like.   Naturally they like to shoot these big rifles occasionally but bullets are anything from $2 up.   Could I cast them ?   It would need a custom mould for each calibre and tooling to be made for each size gas check all of which are bigger than 500 cal.   Quantities would be tiny.   I reckon I'd need a price of nearly one dollar per bullet.   I didn't think there was any chance of getting it. 

There's one point that might have some relevance, but I say “might” with due caution.  I am aware that ammo and component sales are running strong in the US right now.  So strong that we can't get components in SA because there is nothing to spare for export.   That's in a recession.   This week I was looking at Lee Precision's website.  John Lee's intro is all about keeping up with increased handloading.   So I asked directly.   I got a friendly reply which said that sales have been so high through 2008-2009 that they increased staff to get ahead of the backlog.   They reckon it's because more shooters are reloading because of the tight economic situation.   That could be a plus for cast rifle bullets and thus gas checks.     

 

 

 

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Dicko posted this 24 December 2009

shastaboat wrote: Sounds like a business opportunity for someone to make GC's, 1/2 jackets, 3/4 jackets and even full jackets for swaging. I can't imagine the startup costs would be too much.

Partly true and partly not.   Simple tooling for making gas checks at home is not too expensive but production is too slow for commercial purposes.   At the going price of gas checks figure out for yourself how many you'd need to make to earn a living.   Automation is expensive enough to make it a significant business risk, and probably explains why there are so few manufacturers.

The same is true for jackets.   I am aware that there are several specialist bullet makers in the US.   I suspect that most buy jackets from J4.   The tooling for swaging jacketed bullets is not cheap but not unduly expensive.   But the tooling for drawing jackets from sheet metal is VERY expensive.   I suspect that most of the small specialist jacketed bullet makers are supplying bullets not otherwise available at prices high enough to justify the effort, not supplying cheap jackets for general consumption.  

That doesn't make you wrong.   There is a cost and availability problem shaping up that might lend itself to small business opportunities.   The early manifestation is the increase in handloading activity that John Lee mentioned.  Where it will lead is anyone's guess.

 

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kokojoe posted this 24 December 2009

Interesting post so far as it has evolved to some of the business aspects.  One thing is that I have concentrated on the US market.  I have done just a small amount of research on the exporting issues and they appear to be quite a hurdle for an unknown market of such a small dollar amount item because of its nature.  There are all kinds of costly licenses and permits required.

Once I get this figured out and going, maybe the thing to do would be to partner up with non-US partners to produce in their own countries for their own market and avoid all the export/import paperwork.

We conceptually have the automated tooling worked out with sketches.  There are definitely some business risks associated. I have hundreds of hours of research into this so far - for such a simple thing!!

Yes, who knows where reloading will lead.  The ingenuity of those who developed what we have today is incredible. 

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mrbill2 posted this 24 December 2009

All this has just got me to wonder. How many gas checks do you think the average Joe realy use per year. Those of us here, I'm sure use more than most. I only shoot 30 cal. in one gun so 1 to 2k per year is about all I need. Thats about 60 bucks worth. With the price of what we invest in the guns we shoot,plus scopes and custom bullet molds, 60 bucks seem like a bargain.

mrbill2

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Duane Mellenbruch posted this 24 December 2009

Personally, I am not much of a rifle shooter.  Both in quality and quantity.  I do shoot a lot of handgun loads, but most of them seem to do better with a good alloy or heat treating and a plain based bullet.  I have a few gas check molds for the common handgun calibers, but they mostly stay in a box. 

The Contender is another story though with the rifle caliber based loads like the 6mm TCU and such.  I do miss ready access to Hornady gas checks in that size.  I still have adequate stock, but it does make me wonder if there will be more out there eventually. 

I will probably never try to make my own checks.  Too little time for the hobby things as it is.  And for subsistance shooting, the check is probably not completely necessary.  However, the soft gas check by CFVentures might be worth stocking up on since they are not caliber specific, and would take care of gas cutting which the metal check is supposed to do anyway.

Push comes to shove, there will be a lot of bartering  and trading back and forth to keep the necessary supplies at hand.  However, I live in the city so perhaps someone living in a rural area has greater need for the gas checks than a recreational shooter.  Duane

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kokojoe posted this 24 December 2009

But, I also need them when I need them.  I went to order and the were out of stock.  And, if I don't have them tacked onto another order, I have a few bucks in shipping on top of that. 

So, how about if I could get a couple or few years supply for the same amount and not worry about it?  That's one market I'm thinking of.

I'm into my second thousand this year also.  But, I just ordered 5k of the Gator for the reasons above.

I'm basically like the first poster - trying to save some money.  I get the lead cheap or for nothing.  Even if I paid market, the material cost is maybe a penny for a cast bullet.  Then, to pay 3 cents for the check just did not set too well!!  I guess part of it is the principal and the challenge of it all!  So, I thought a penny and a half or so would set ok with me for the gas check.

You are definitely right about it not being bad relative to all the other costs.  But, on the other hand, if some money is saved that can be used for something else.

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shastaboat posted this 24 December 2009

Maybe producing GC's for commercial sales is the wrong approach. I wonder if a hardened steel cutting die/mandrel could be made to fit in reloading presses? Could we buy flat sheets of copper, brass, aluminum from a metal supplier and make our own?

Because I said so!

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JetMech posted this 24 December 2009

There are several folks working on creating tooling to produce checks. The problem, from my point of view, is that they are all designing, testing and producing at the hobbiest level. A good example is Charlie and his FreeChex. When time allows, he makes a few then puts them up on evilbay. I rarely have the time to wait for a .30 check maker to show up, then try to out-bid everyone else who wants one. Mrbill 2 is also working on one, but these are all low-production operations, as well as the check making tool inself. Perhaps the smart thing to do is to come up with a good tool and sell the rights to produce it to a company with the infrastructure to mass-produce it. K&M tooling and some other operations produce fine reloading tools to a small market. We used to do that when I actively worked sheetmetal on aircraft. I have a friend who has sold a couple tool ideas and prototypes to companies. He got a fair price for his work and royalties on every tool produced.

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Johnny Breedlove posted this 24 December 2009

Hey guys I'm not trying to be a defetist but we actually bave a bigger problem on our hands than gas checks. I use a lot of GC's also but if we don't have “lead” we don't need GC's. The enviromentalists are doing every thing they can to get rid of lead and they are succeding. All of this is being done through the help of the Powerful liberal left and this all stems from Gun Control. They (the liberal left) have found that bucking the 2nd ammendment is a lot harder than they thought. So they figure? lets get rid of the lead. Once this is accomplished they will go to work on making it illegal to use copper or tin or zink or bismuth or anything else that bullets can be made of. This is all through the guize of it is harmful for the environment or human health. We are truly on the brink of Gun Control by not having anything to use for ammo. I hope I'm not to far off the wall with this, I'm 68 years old and it may not happen in my life time but it will happen unless we can stop this rollercoaster. Proof in the pudding ie. California, Washington and I'm sure other states. So call your congressman senator or open your on lead mine. If this does not work we can all move to South Africa and live with dicko and take what lead we have left and start our own country.

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shastaboat posted this 24 December 2009

Instead of forming our own country, maybe we just need to take this one back. I'm lucky, I have enough WW lead to last my lifetime and then maybe some I can leave my off spring.

Because I said so!

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kokojoe posted this 25 December 2009

Funny how these posts evolve.  But, since politics has come up..I could not resist!

Good point on the lead.  In my research I have done much in the way of looking at gun control and the risk of that occurring.  What I like to do, as hard as it is, is to read the materials from the “other side".  They lay out their plans, thoughts, and strategies beautifully - then, if you know what it is, you can plan an appropriate defense.

First, we need to support the efforts of the NRA.  It is one of the most powerful lobyist groups in the country.  Lawmakers from both sides are fearful of the NRA, its impact, and the ramifications of gun control.  Like any group, there are a handful of those extremist gun controller lawmakers.  But, most do have concerns over the backlash from their constituents.  Most polls find that even non-gun enthusiasts are reluctant to support draconian gun control. 

But, getting back to the other side - one of their strategies is to implement gun control through ammunition control.  One of their stated theories is to make the ammunition costly enough that not much will be purchased; thus taking the back door to gun control.  So, this is one place the NRA and others are actively watching. 

CA is scary as long as it is part of the US.  I like the one poster who said take back our own country!  It is ours.  That is why even legislators who support gun control are reluctant to vote in favor - they truly fear the ramifications from “the people” (like we are toys in box).  So, if CA people truly want things the way they are, that is their business and their right.  If not, only they can change it. The rest of us have choices to leave in free states and it is critical that we keep them that way.  There is no place for apathy or cynicism in politics.   We can make changes.  Each of us has a voice at each and every level.  Participation and financial support of those who protect us is critical.  It costs millions for the NRA every year to help preserve our rights.  Get on local boards of zoning, councils, etc.  This keeps our voice heard.

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