9MM Barrel Leading

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kokojoe posted this 27 April 2009

I've read & looked at this quite a bit. So, I thought I'd get some input now to focus my direction.

I cast Lee TL 124 grain RN for my 9MM. I use the Lee sizer to .357 (my barrel slugs at .356). I shoot a SW 669 and Sigma. My cast is mostly WW and BHN is 20-22. I tumble lube them before sizing and after. Lube is cut with maybe 20%mineral spirits.

I've found that 4.1 Win 231 (1.10 OAL) seems to work best as far as shooting. I never have a failure to feed or any other problem in several hundred rounds of the relaods. My young son does - but I think it's in his trigger pull since his hand is not as large or strong. At 3.3/3.4 the Sigma does not cycle consistenly - so that's probably the low end. Groups seem best at the 4.1. I've not gone higher because I think (there are some conflicting data sources) - that's about Max. Lee has max at 4.0 - a couple other sources go up a few tenths from there. At 4.1 there does not seem to be any over-pressure signs on the cases or primers and it reacts closely to the factory rounds (which is one of my objectives for practice).

But, I went through about 250 rounds between both guns and have been working on getting the lead out for a couple days.

I honeslty can't say whether the leading is from just these rounds or an accumulation that I missed before. I probably have about 500 lead rounds out of each gun so far.

The lead seemed along the whole barrel length.

I've been using Hoppes No. 9 and a brass brush. I have another tiny brass brush that I've used on some of the stubborn areas also.

So, a few questions (any other comments welcome also):

<>Is this as good as anything for cleaning the lead out? Is there a better product?<>How good should it be cleaned before I can reliably tell if my loads are still leading? I think I'm about 95%+ at this point. <>With them clean, should I just go try another 100 rounds and reinspect and then try something else?<>Should I try sizing to .358? (the molds are .356 but 99% seem to drop over that and almost all get sized to some degree at 357 or 358 - I use some of the 358 in .38 special with no similar, stubborn leading).<>Would a lower load - like 3.8 or 3.9 likely reduce the leading? I don't think I want to go higher. <>Would lower or higher BHN likely reduce the leading?<*>Would not cutting the Lee lube help?Thanks for your consideration.

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CBA Member

Ed Harris posted this 27 April 2009

Most 9mm chambers are sloppy enough to accept .358 bullets. Make some dummy rounds and hand cycle them at .358 abnd also unsized to see if they chamber and exrtract easily. If larger diameter bullets chamber and extract without resistance, try shooting some. Try shooting some wheelweight alloy bullets without quenching them. About 12-13 BHN should be adequate with the light loads you are using.

Try tumbling in straight LLA as a refinement. I don't think that lube is your problem, but it is OK to try more as a refinement. It sounds to me like your bullets are too small and too hard. Use the lightest load which cycles reliably.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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kokojoe posted this 27 April 2009

Thanks. I'll try all those suggestions. I think I got some powerful batch of old WW that created these. I just cast another batch and they come out at about 13 - so I'll size them to .358 use strait tumble lube. May be able to do this in the next few days.

I have the barrels out and a .358 does drop right in. Should it be ok or do I need it in the gun to see how they actually load?

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CBA Member

Ed Harris posted this 27 April 2009

Drop checking in the barrel is fine. If they go all the way in, and fall out of their own weight you are good to go. Check some unsized and see if they will go in also.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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kokojoe posted this 27 April 2009

Thanks. I will try the unsized as well. One of my problems that I'm not sure how to handle is that the unsized units drop out-of-round. A typical bullet will run .358 to .361. I cold have caused this when I cleaned out some mold release (that I should not have put on); so I can't really say it's a Lee problem. But, do you think this out of round range is ok to try “as cast"?

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CBA Member

Ed Harris posted this 27 April 2009

See if they chamber... But .002 out of round sounds like a mould problem.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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kokojoe posted this 28 April 2009

REport: I did some unsized (about 15) -about 1/3 won't chamber and the others do. So, I'll probably need to size for consistency.

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CBA Member

giorgio de galleani posted this 28 April 2009

Instead of sizing the Lee TL bullets,try another of Ed's tricks,use a lee factory crimp die on the loaded rounds.

My Browning HP 9x21 does dot lead.and accepts unsized Lee TL bullets.

What lenght are your 9 mm cartridges? Deep seating may raise pressures in the 9 luger.

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kokojoe posted this 30 April 2009

Thanks for the factory crimp tip. I have one on order from Midway with some other stuff - must still be something on backorder. I was wondering if I needed it because my sized stuff all feeds & chambers well - but now I"ll keep out some of those that don't drop in & try them with the crimping die.

I ordered the factory crimp die. By the way, what is the difference between that and the Lee taper crimp die?

I've tried the sofer (16.6 BHN) and sized at .358 - I'm still getting about the same leading on both guns.

I'm thinking that I read somewhere that, at some point, some guns stop leading as they get used? These both have probably only had a few hundred rounds through them before I've begun casting & loading.

Would a lower powder charge reduce leading?

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hunterspistol posted this 03 May 2009

I'm currently working up 9mm loads on a single shot TC. Haven't been doing this long but, here's the basics that I can relate.

The 9mm has a tendency to build pressure with such a short little case, watch your crimp, too much can raise pressure. Bullet seating depth also increases pressure if you're using a bulky powder(I'm in Bullseye and N340).

For cast lead bullets, try mineral spirits paint thinner. I found it's similar to white kerosene and will clean (one heckuva lot) better than Hoppe's #9, although I have both.

I just had a rough time getting some shootable loads out of bullsyeye and , it was mostly bullet seating depth and the notorious TC chamber quirks. That's my $.02 worth. Good Luck

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giorgio de galleani posted this 04 May 2009

My pc cannot open the Leeprecision site,this morning.

If memory serves me Lee calls factory crimp dies the ones with three finges that press the last part of the neck into the bullets cannelure or crimping groove,in bottle neck and straight rifle cases.

Factory crimp dies for straight pistol cases have a taper crimp for autos and roll crimp for revolvers.The difference between them and the standard crimp dies,is in the fact they have a carbide ring at the die's base that sizes the whole loaded cartridge,before applying the crimp.

This helps chambering oversize bullets.

Usually the lightest load that cycles the action will not load in my 9x21 pistols.At speeds around 950 fps.

Full power cast bullets loads that are accurate without leading are found only under the bucket full of gold coins at the rainbow's end.

Years ago ,in a 9x21 tanfoglio I loded to minor power factor,at around 1250 fps ,using a rcbs 125 grains bullet,with a gas check and cast in quenched linotype.

Quenched linotype reaches his max imum hardness at once.

After all this fuss & work & expenses I wisened up and got an old Ithaca 911 in 45 Italian HP,( we enjoy gun control laws ,while the 45ACP was a war catridge,the 0.02 inch shorter 45HP is not )

With a 45ACP I got without fuss & bother all the power factors that I needed without leading using any cheap shotgun powder and soft and cheap alloys.

The only positive thing ,in our Italian Caliber of Peace 9x21,is that I can get free buckets of brass at the range,because most 9 mm shooters do not reload,possibly because of the difficulty of using commercially cast undersize .356 bullets.

Two millimeters of longer powder space in the case,help lowering the pressure,and I fell that leading is given by pressure more than speed.

You might have some benefits from throating up your 9x19 Luger ,a larger diameter that would accept unsized Lee TL bullets,and a shallow angle into the grooves,might help.Even a longer throat, accepting bullets seated outside the case might help.

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lv2tinker posted this 04 May 2009

Kokojoe wrote:

“I cast Lee TL 124 grain RN for my 9MM. I use the Lee sizer to .357 (my barrel slugs at .356). I shoot a SW 669 and Sigma. My cast is mostly WW and BHN is 20-22. I tumble lube them before sizing and after. Lube is cut with maybe 20%mineral spirits. I've found that 4.1 Win 231 (1.10 OAL) seems to work best as far as shooting”. “The lead seemed along the whole barrel length”. I had the same problem with leading as you have. Searched every 9mm Forum that I could find.

This is what I discovered that worked for other 9mm lead shooters and now works for me:

1: Size to .357 0r .358 depending on your bore size. 2: BHN 16 for medium power loads,(1,000 fps) and BHN 19/21 for full power loads. 3: Use as long an OAL as your barrel will accept before hitting the rifling. (Keeps the pressure down). 4: Use a “medium burning powder” with a “slow pressure rise”. (Below are powders recommended by 9mm shooter CZ57 in the below listed czforum site).

HS-6 (Have not tried it) Silhouette (old Win WAP) My favorite, clean, good metering, but hard to find. “Zero” leading & medium recoil. Can easily “double charge” with this powder. Has a flash reducer in it, leaves unburned residue on the floor in indoor ranges. WAP (Have not tried) N340 (Have not tried) WSF (Another one of my favorites, good metering, “lowest pressure” of them all but somewhat dirty.) “Zero” leading. Medium recoil. I highly recommended it. Locally availably. UNIQUE ( “Zero” leading, very accurate but meters poorly in my LEE powder measure).Heavy recoil. Great powder for 9mm thru .44 Mag. True Blue (Sharp recoil but with “zero” leading). Can easily “triple” charge with this one. 3N37 (Have not tried) AA#7 (Have not tried)

Here is a really great site that I got a lot of information on reloading the 9mm: http://www.czforumsite.info/index.php?topic=11027.0>http://www.czforumsite.info/index.php?topic=11027.0

I use the LEE L356-124-TC, LEE 356-125-2R and Lyman 358242/124 for my CZ's , sized to .3575 with an OAL of 1.050, (that's all they'll accept before hitting the rifling) loaded for an Average of 1010 fps. I also use an RCBS Lube-Sizer with BAC White Label Lube (soft lube) http://www.lsstuff.com/lube/>http://www.lsstuff.com/lube/ for all my lube needs. (Tried Lee's tumble Lube but it was just too messy for me).

Other Powders that I have tried in the 9mm: Win 231=heavy leading, smokey. Sharp recoil. Titegroup=light leading, very smokey. Sharp recoil. Clays=heavy leading and hi-pressure spikes, low velocities. Dangerous powder for 9mm. International Clays=V-Good, no leading. Light Loads only. Light recoil.

A little long but hopefully helpful.

Cheers”¦..

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CBA Member

argie1891 posted this 04 May 2009

I have loaded the 9mm quite a bit over the last few years. one thing i learned early on was that leading was a problem especially with the lighter bullets. i first loaded 100 gr. bullets as the only mould i owned was for the 380 auto. My leading compleatly came under control when i bought a heavy 147 bullet mould. as the 9mm is a simi auto it takes a certian pressure and velosity to function the action. with the heavy bullets you can load to 850 to 900 fps and have no problem getting pressure and velolsity to the level needed. try a heavier bullet and i bet your leading will go away. joe gifford

if you think you have it figured out then you just dont understand

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kokojoe posted this 05 May 2009

Thanks for that. That is a great summary at that site. I never thought about the powder issue making such a big difference. I might try others. I have a batch of Win 231 and that's why I've been using it.

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kokojoe posted this 05 May 2009

So, I'm thinking of trying the WSF as you indicate one of your favorites with no leading. Also the Hogdon site has the direct loading data for the 124LRN that I cast with the Lee mold.

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lv2tinker posted this 05 May 2009

Glad that I could be of help. I have sure enjoyed casting/loading my 9mm.

Cheers...

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kokojoe posted this 05 May 2009

Ed Harris wrote: See if they chamber... But .002 out of round sounds like a mould problem.Thanks. I may have messed up the mold myself when I tried to buff out some mold release I put in it. Also, Lee said I may not have the pins, etc. lubed correctly. Also, I do have a Lee Factory Crimp on its way - I'm going to try to see if the as cast that don't chamber work after the factory crimp die is applied.

I also ordered one for 45ACP - but it is still back ordered at Midway. Took me almost a month to get the 9MM.

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kokojoe posted this 07 May 2009

lv2tinker wrote:

Kokojoe wrote:

I had the same problem with leading as you have. Searched every 9mm Forum that I could find.

This is what I discovered that worked for other 9mm lead shooters and now works for me:

Here is a really great site that I got a lot of information on reloading the 9mm: http://www.czforumsite.info/index.php?topic=11027.0>http://www.czforumsite.info/index.php?topic=11027.0

A little long but hopefully helpful.

Cheers”¦..

I purchased some WSF to try. I am going to try it with my .45ACP since I've got the large primers already set up then I'll try the 9MM. But, for my own info, what is it about the different powders that makes a difference on leading?

thanks

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lv2tinker posted this 08 May 2009

"purchased some WSF to try. I am going to try it with my .45ACP since I've got the large primers already set up then I'll try the 9MM.”

Save the WSF for the 9mm and use your Win-231 for the .45 ACP

"But, for my own info, what is it about the different powders that makes a difference on leading?" Refer to: http://www.czforumsite.info/index.php?topic=11027.0>http://www.czforumsite.info/index.php?topic=11027.0 again and go to section “IV. Powders", “C. Powder Burn Rates".

Hopefully someone on this forum will chime in with a simpler answer.

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kokojoe posted this 09 May 2009

lv2tinker wrote: "purchased some WSF to try. I am going to try it with my .45ACP since I've got the large primers already set up then I'll try the 9MM.”

Save the WSF for the 9mm and use your Win-231 for the .45 ACP

Hopefully someone on this forum will chime in with a simpler answer. Thanks very much about the WSF for 9mm & Win 231 for 45. I only have a handful done on the 45 so I can go back easily to the 231.