9MM Barrel Leading

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Last Post 23 April 2020

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kokojoe posted this 27 April 2009

I've read & looked at this quite a bit. So, I thought I'd get some input now to focus my direction.

I cast Lee TL 124 grain RN for my 9MM. I use the Lee sizer to .357 (my barrel slugs at .356). I shoot a SW 669 and Sigma. My cast is mostly WW and BHN is 20-22. I tumble lube them before sizing and after. Lube is cut with maybe 20%mineral spirits.

I've found that 4.1 Win 231 (1.10 OAL) seems to work best as far as shooting. I never have a failure to feed or any other problem in several hundred rounds of the relaods. My young son does - but I think it's in his trigger pull since his hand is not as large or strong. At 3.3/3.4 the Sigma does not cycle consistenly - so that's probably the low end. Groups seem best at the 4.1. I've not gone higher because I think (there are some conflicting data sources) - that's about Max. Lee has max at 4.0 - a couple other sources go up a few tenths from there. At 4.1 there does not seem to be any over-pressure signs on the cases or primers and it reacts closely to the factory rounds (which is one of my objectives for practice).

But, I went through about 250 rounds between both guns and have been working on getting the lead out for a couple days.

I honeslty can't say whether the leading is from just these rounds or an accumulation that I missed before. I probably have about 500 lead rounds out of each gun so far.

The lead seemed along the whole barrel length.

I've been using Hoppes No. 9 and a brass brush. I have another tiny brass brush that I've used on some of the stubborn areas also.

So, a few questions (any other comments welcome also):

<>Is this as good as anything for cleaning the lead out? Is there a better product?<>How good should it be cleaned before I can reliably tell if my loads are still leading? I think I'm about 95%+ at this point. <>With them clean, should I just go try another 100 rounds and reinspect and then try something else?<>Should I try sizing to .358? (the molds are .356 but 99% seem to drop over that and almost all get sized to some degree at 357 or 358 - I use some of the 358 in .38 special with no similar, stubborn leading).<>Would a lower load - like 3.8 or 3.9 likely reduce the leading? I don't think I want to go higher. <>Would lower or higher BHN likely reduce the leading?<*>Would not cutting the Lee lube help?Thanks for your consideration.

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CBA Member

Ed Harris posted this 27 April 2009

Most 9mm chambers are sloppy enough to accept .358 bullets. Make some dummy rounds and hand cycle them at .358 abnd also unsized to see if they chamber and exrtract easily. If larger diameter bullets chamber and extract without resistance, try shooting some. Try shooting some wheelweight alloy bullets without quenching them. About 12-13 BHN should be adequate with the light loads you are using.

Try tumbling in straight LLA as a refinement. I don't think that lube is your problem, but it is OK to try more as a refinement. It sounds to me like your bullets are too small and too hard. Use the lightest load which cycles reliably.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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kokojoe posted this 27 April 2009

Thanks. I'll try all those suggestions. I think I got some powerful batch of old WW that created these. I just cast another batch and they come out at about 13 - so I'll size them to .358 use strait tumble lube. May be able to do this in the next few days.

I have the barrels out and a .358 does drop right in. Should it be ok or do I need it in the gun to see how they actually load?

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CBA Member

Ed Harris posted this 27 April 2009

Drop checking in the barrel is fine. If they go all the way in, and fall out of their own weight you are good to go. Check some unsized and see if they will go in also.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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kokojoe posted this 27 April 2009

Thanks. I will try the unsized as well. One of my problems that I'm not sure how to handle is that the unsized units drop out-of-round. A typical bullet will run .358 to .361. I cold have caused this when I cleaned out some mold release (that I should not have put on); so I can't really say it's a Lee problem. But, do you think this out of round range is ok to try “as cast"?

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CBA Member

Ed Harris posted this 27 April 2009

See if they chamber... But .002 out of round sounds like a mould problem.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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kokojoe posted this 28 April 2009

REport: I did some unsized (about 15) -about 1/3 won't chamber and the others do. So, I'll probably need to size for consistency.

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CBA Member

giorgio de galleani posted this 28 April 2009

Instead of sizing the Lee TL bullets,try another of Ed's tricks,use a lee factory crimp die on the loaded rounds.

My Browning HP 9x21 does dot lead.and accepts unsized Lee TL bullets.

What lenght are your 9 mm cartridges? Deep seating may raise pressures in the 9 luger.

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Standard Member

kokojoe posted this 30 April 2009

Thanks for the factory crimp tip. I have one on order from Midway with some other stuff - must still be something on backorder. I was wondering if I needed it because my sized stuff all feeds & chambers well - but now I"ll keep out some of those that don't drop in & try them with the crimping die.

I ordered the factory crimp die. By the way, what is the difference between that and the Lee taper crimp die?

I've tried the sofer (16.6 BHN) and sized at .358 - I'm still getting about the same leading on both guns.

I'm thinking that I read somewhere that, at some point, some guns stop leading as they get used? These both have probably only had a few hundred rounds through them before I've begun casting & loading.

Would a lower powder charge reduce leading?

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hunterspistol posted this 03 May 2009

I'm currently working up 9mm loads on a single shot TC. Haven't been doing this long but, here's the basics that I can relate.

The 9mm has a tendency to build pressure with such a short little case, watch your crimp, too much can raise pressure. Bullet seating depth also increases pressure if you're using a bulky powder(I'm in Bullseye and N340).

For cast lead bullets, try mineral spirits paint thinner. I found it's similar to white kerosene and will clean (one heckuva lot) better than Hoppe's #9, although I have both.

I just had a rough time getting some shootable loads out of bullsyeye and , it was mostly bullet seating depth and the notorious TC chamber quirks. That's my $.02 worth. Good Luck

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CBA Member

giorgio de galleani posted this 04 May 2009

My pc cannot open the Leeprecision site,this morning.

If memory serves me Lee calls factory crimp dies the ones with three finges that press the last part of the neck into the bullets cannelure or crimping groove,in bottle neck and straight rifle cases.

Factory crimp dies for straight pistol cases have a taper crimp for autos and roll crimp for revolvers.The difference between them and the standard crimp dies,is in the fact they have a carbide ring at the die's base that sizes the whole loaded cartridge,before applying the crimp.

This helps chambering oversize bullets.

Usually the lightest load that cycles the action will not load in my 9x21 pistols.At speeds around 950 fps.

Full power cast bullets loads that are accurate without leading are found only under the bucket full of gold coins at the rainbow's end.

Years ago ,in a 9x21 tanfoglio I loded to minor power factor,at around 1250 fps ,using a rcbs 125 grains bullet,with a gas check and cast in quenched linotype.

Quenched linotype reaches his max imum hardness at once.

After all this fuss & work & expenses I wisened up and got an old Ithaca 911 in 45 Italian HP,( we enjoy gun control laws ,while the 45ACP was a war catridge,the 0.02 inch shorter 45HP is not )

With a 45ACP I got without fuss & bother all the power factors that I needed without leading using any cheap shotgun powder and soft and cheap alloys.

The only positive thing ,in our Italian Caliber of Peace 9x21,is that I can get free buckets of brass at the range,because most 9 mm shooters do not reload,possibly because of the difficulty of using commercially cast undersize .356 bullets.

Two millimeters of longer powder space in the case,help lowering the pressure,and I fell that leading is given by pressure more than speed.

You might have some benefits from throating up your 9x19 Luger ,a larger diameter that would accept unsized Lee TL bullets,and a shallow angle into the grooves,might help.Even a longer throat, accepting bullets seated outside the case might help.

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lv2tinker posted this 04 May 2009

Kokojoe wrote:

“I cast Lee TL 124 grain RN for my 9MM. I use the Lee sizer to .357 (my barrel slugs at .356). I shoot a SW 669 and Sigma. My cast is mostly WW and BHN is 20-22. I tumble lube them before sizing and after. Lube is cut with maybe 20%mineral spirits. I've found that 4.1 Win 231 (1.10 OAL) seems to work best as far as shooting”. “The lead seemed along the whole barrel length”. I had the same problem with leading as you have. Searched every 9mm Forum that I could find.

This is what I discovered that worked for other 9mm lead shooters and now works for me:

1: Size to .357 0r .358 depending on your bore size. 2: BHN 16 for medium power loads,(1,000 fps) and BHN 19/21 for full power loads. 3: Use as long an OAL as your barrel will accept before hitting the rifling. (Keeps the pressure down). 4: Use a “medium burning powder” with a “slow pressure rise”. (Below are powders recommended by 9mm shooter CZ57 in the below listed czforum site).

HS-6 (Have not tried it) Silhouette (old Win WAP) My favorite, clean, good metering, but hard to find. “Zero” leading & medium recoil. Can easily “double charge” with this powder. Has a flash reducer in it, leaves unburned residue on the floor in indoor ranges. WAP (Have not tried) N340 (Have not tried) WSF (Another one of my favorites, good metering, “lowest pressure” of them all but somewhat dirty.) “Zero” leading. Medium recoil. I highly recommended it. Locally availably. UNIQUE ( “Zero” leading, very accurate but meters poorly in my LEE powder measure).Heavy recoil. Great powder for 9mm thru .44 Mag. True Blue (Sharp recoil but with “zero” leading). Can easily “triple” charge with this one. 3N37 (Have not tried) AA#7 (Have not tried)

Here is a really great site that I got a lot of information on reloading the 9mm: http://www.czforumsite.info/index.php?topic=11027.0>http://www.czforumsite.info/index.php?topic=11027.0

I use the LEE L356-124-TC, LEE 356-125-2R and Lyman 358242/124 for my CZ's , sized to .3575 with an OAL of 1.050, (that's all they'll accept before hitting the rifling) loaded for an Average of 1010 fps. I also use an RCBS Lube-Sizer with BAC White Label Lube (soft lube) http://www.lsstuff.com/lube/>http://www.lsstuff.com/lube/ for all my lube needs. (Tried Lee's tumble Lube but it was just too messy for me).

Other Powders that I have tried in the 9mm: Win 231=heavy leading, smokey. Sharp recoil. Titegroup=light leading, very smokey. Sharp recoil. Clays=heavy leading and hi-pressure spikes, low velocities. Dangerous powder for 9mm. International Clays=V-Good, no leading. Light Loads only. Light recoil.

A little long but hopefully helpful.

Cheers”¦..

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CBA Member

argie1891 posted this 04 May 2009

I have loaded the 9mm quite a bit over the last few years. one thing i learned early on was that leading was a problem especially with the lighter bullets. i first loaded 100 gr. bullets as the only mould i owned was for the 380 auto. My leading compleatly came under control when i bought a heavy 147 bullet mould. as the 9mm is a simi auto it takes a certian pressure and velosity to function the action. with the heavy bullets you can load to 850 to 900 fps and have no problem getting pressure and velolsity to the level needed. try a heavier bullet and i bet your leading will go away. joe gifford

if you think you have it figured out then you just dont understand

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kokojoe posted this 05 May 2009

Thanks for that. That is a great summary at that site. I never thought about the powder issue making such a big difference. I might try others. I have a batch of Win 231 and that's why I've been using it.

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kokojoe posted this 05 May 2009

So, I'm thinking of trying the WSF as you indicate one of your favorites with no leading. Also the Hogdon site has the direct loading data for the 124LRN that I cast with the Lee mold.

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lv2tinker posted this 05 May 2009

Glad that I could be of help. I have sure enjoyed casting/loading my 9mm.

Cheers...

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kokojoe posted this 05 May 2009

Ed Harris wrote: See if they chamber... But .002 out of round sounds like a mould problem.Thanks. I may have messed up the mold myself when I tried to buff out some mold release I put in it. Also, Lee said I may not have the pins, etc. lubed correctly. Also, I do have a Lee Factory Crimp on its way - I'm going to try to see if the as cast that don't chamber work after the factory crimp die is applied.

I also ordered one for 45ACP - but it is still back ordered at Midway. Took me almost a month to get the 9MM.

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kokojoe posted this 07 May 2009

lv2tinker wrote:

Kokojoe wrote:

I had the same problem with leading as you have. Searched every 9mm Forum that I could find.

This is what I discovered that worked for other 9mm lead shooters and now works for me:

Here is a really great site that I got a lot of information on reloading the 9mm: http://www.czforumsite.info/index.php?topic=11027.0>http://www.czforumsite.info/index.php?topic=11027.0

A little long but hopefully helpful.

Cheers”¦..

I purchased some WSF to try. I am going to try it with my .45ACP since I've got the large primers already set up then I'll try the 9MM. But, for my own info, what is it about the different powders that makes a difference on leading?

thanks

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lv2tinker posted this 08 May 2009

"purchased some WSF to try. I am going to try it with my .45ACP since I've got the large primers already set up then I'll try the 9MM.”

Save the WSF for the 9mm and use your Win-231 for the .45 ACP

"But, for my own info, what is it about the different powders that makes a difference on leading?" Refer to: http://www.czforumsite.info/index.php?topic=11027.0>http://www.czforumsite.info/index.php?topic=11027.0 again and go to section “IV. Powders", “C. Powder Burn Rates".

Hopefully someone on this forum will chime in with a simpler answer.

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kokojoe posted this 09 May 2009

lv2tinker wrote: "purchased some WSF to try. I am going to try it with my .45ACP since I've got the large primers already set up then I'll try the 9MM.”

Save the WSF for the 9mm and use your Win-231 for the .45 ACP

Hopefully someone on this forum will chime in with a simpler answer. Thanks very much about the WSF for 9mm & Win 231 for 45. I only have a handful done on the 45 so I can go back easily to the 231.

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kokojoe posted this 09 May 2009

While you commented on the Win 231 for the 45 acp - would Clays be better? I've read some posts & comments on that..

So, WSF for the 9mm and Clays for .45ACP? And, while we're at it - I've been using the Win 231 for .38 special - any suggestions there?

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CBA Member

RicinYakima posted this 09 May 2009

I ran a pretty exhaustive test on all of my 38 Special and 357 revolvers. The best with a plain base 158 grains SWC in 38 brass was 4.5 grains of WW231. And that was with S&W, Colts and Rugers. It is a standard pressure load that I would recommend to anyone. Ric

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kokojoe posted this 09 May 2009

RicinYakima wrote: I ran a pretty exhaustive test on all of my 38 Special and 357 revolvers. The best with a plain base 158 grains SWC in 38 brass was 4.5 grains of WW231. And that was with S&W, Colts and Rugers. It is a standard pressure load that I would recommend to anyone. Ric Thanks. That helps to confirm my limited experience. I've only loaded Win 231 in the .38 and use a Lee 158 SWC that I cast. I think my most recent loads were 4.3 and they worked pretty well. I may move them up a notch to load a batch for my inventory. I also used a 124LRN that I cast for my 9MM - it casts a little oversize and I get them at about .358. They seem pretty good for plinking with 3.7 grains of Win 231.

I'll probably just stick with the Win 231 for the .38 special, then.

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lv2tinker posted this 09 May 2009

kokojoe wrote: While you commented on the Win 231 for the 45 acp - would Clays be better? I've read some posts & comments on that..

So, WSF for the 9mm and Clays for .45ACP? And, while we're at it - I've been using the Win 231 for .38 special - any suggestions there? I use Clays behind my cast 200 gr LSWC's for plinking (it's very clean) and Win-231 beind my 230 gr Jacketed bullets because I like the way it fills the case and you can't double charge it. Use caution with Clays as you can easily throw a double charge and it dosen't meter as well as Win-231.

I agree with RicinYakima on .38 Special loads. I've loaded a ton of .38's with Win-231. It makes a very good, hard hitting load.

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kokojoe posted this 14 May 2009

UPDATE: I used both my SW Sigma 9VE and my SW 669. The WSF really worked nicely. I was seating to 1.10” OAL with the WIN 231. The Hogdon data indicated 1.169” for my 124 grain LRN with the WSF. I compromised and the loads were coming out at 1.114” to 1.116” - this keeps the shoulder of the bullet just a tiny bit above the case mouth. I tried 4.0, 4.2, and 4.4 of the WSF. The 4.2 worked great. My BHN was 20.9 on this batch (I'm working this lower on future to about 14-16). I just shot freehand from 30' - so this may not be the most scientific experiment - but it works for me. With the 9VE i put all 16 rounds into the triangle. With the 4.0 they were pretty scattered and with 4.4 they were vertically close but horizontally in a much greater spread. Also, on these loads, I finished them off with a Lee Factory Crimp die on the 4th station of the reloader. But, I also got out some of my 4.1 grain WIN 231 that did not get the Lee FCD. They shot just about as good as the WSF 4.2. So, in my book, they are both equally good.

I can't confirm if the WSF helped the leading situation for me yet. I'm going to work through my supply of loaded WIN 231 and then go with the WSF for awhile and see. I did finally find an easy way to get the barrel really clean quickly from other reading - that was with the copper kitchen scrub cut up and twisted onto the brush - wow that really did the job. I've also mixed up a batch of the Ed's Red and it works with this perfectly and very cheap.

Also, in all these rounds with the WIN 231 and WSF, now maybe over 2,000 rounds, I've not had a failure at all. When I was experimenting with the WIN 231, it had to be over 3.7 to properly cycle the 9VE. But, once I approached 4.0 it worked great.

The FCD fixes that occasional round that did not want to chamber fully. It has never happened for me but it has for my 9 year old. I think his trigger pull is a little different and if the round is not just right, it needs a nudge to chamber. But, I expect the FCD to eliminate this problem as well.

So, I'm going to try to work down the BHN to 14-16, keep sizing at .358, use the FCD, and try the 4.2 of WSF for awhile and see if that minimizes the leading.

Thanks for all your input. I enjoy this forum. It is funny how one topic evolves to other things. I especially appreciate the insight on the .38s. I'll keep with the WIN 231 on those.

I'm putting my 45acp on hold until the FCD comes. It is back ordered. I size my cast bullets to .452 and no more that half will chamber. And, those that do are very tight. So, I've not been able to do much good work on those.

I'm so pleased with the 9mm, though, that I'm looking for a 9MM carbine to mess around with.

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Edubya posted this 26 May 2009

Leading is: Deposits of bullet alloy that have been smeared into the surface of the gun's bore. Bore Leading, Muzzle End

When lead fouling occurs at the muzzle end, you have run out of bullet lubricant. Either use a better lube, or more of it to correct the problem. If you can, use a bullet with more, or deeper and/or wider lube grooves. After firing a box of cast bullets, say 20 to 50 rounds, there could be a lube “star” on the muzzle. This indicates that there is simply left over lubricant and the bullet exited the muzzle with plenty of lube. If, however, you find a lead “star” instead you need to try something different as the bullet ran out of lube. You may be able to simply reduce the charge (lower velocity) and correct this. The alternatives are use a better lube or a different bullet design that can carry more lube.

http://www.lasc.us/TaylorLeadingDefined.htm>http://www.lasc.us/TaylorLeadingDefined.htm PS; I have found much good information on this site and I encourage you to read and understand this for your own good. It makes doing it right the first time so much easier, faster and a lot less frustrating in the long run.

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Edubya posted this 26 May 2009

Often European manufactured 9x19's (CZ, Browning etc.)have oversize bores measuring .357 or .358. Most Glocks seem .355. Your bullet will lead if they are undersized. It is something worth checking to minimize leading in the barrel.

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CBA Member

max503 posted this 21 April 2020

"I have loaded the 9mm quite a bit over the last few years. one thing i learned early on was that leading was a problem especially with the lighter bullets. i first loaded 100 gr. bullets as the only mould i owned was for the 380 auto. My leading compleatly came under control when i bought a heavy 147 bullet mould. as the 9mm is a simi auto it takes a certian pressure and velosity to function the action. with the heavy bullets you can load to 850 to 900 fps and have no problem getting pressure and velolsity to the level needed. try a heavier bullet and i bet your leading will go away. joe Gifford"

Sorry for digging up an old thread but I have an old problem. My Taurus PT 92 leads consistently with both Lee 105 grain SWC's and Lee 124 grain TLTC bullets. I think the bore slugs at .356. I size to .357 and .358 and I've even shot some unsized but they all lead.

I don't feel like buying a new mold for a heavier bullet like the poster above recommended.

I've learned to live with it. I looped a hank of Chore Boy copper pad to the end of a piece of string trimmer line. Pulling that through the bore clears out the lead. I lube very lightly with LLA. I've used Unique, 700x, Red Dot, and Blue Dot. They all lead.

I'm going to cast up some Lee 95 grain flat nose 380 bullets and try them just because.

Gary would yell at me if he was here.

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Eutectic posted this 22 April 2020

Sized bullets but some rounds do not fit. Case thickness variation, use one head stamp commercial brass.

Yes, use a medium burn rate powder. I have had good luck with Power Pistol, 4.8 grains should give ~1000 fps with your 124 grain bullet.

You say your WW's are BHN 22, are you water hardening them? If not I doubt they are close to 22. You may need harder alloy.

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CBA Member

Coydog posted this 22 April 2020

For my 9 mm's I cast them to about BHN 12 and I have no leading, I use the old NRA lube with ATF and size some to .357 and one odd one I cast to .358 same as I use in my 357 mags .I use mix cases also , It works for me . I air cool my boolits.

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CBA Member

Boschloper posted this 23 April 2020

Try powder coat. I use Eastwood "mirror red". I am using HP38, the minimum load from the Hodgdon website, I load .32 mag, 9mm, .357 mag, .44 mag, and .45 auto, all the same way. I am amazed at the lack of leading and overall cleanness.

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9MM Barrel Leading

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