The Gods Must Be Crazy

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  • Last Post 19 June 2009
Ed Harris posted this 29 April 2009

If you are not familiar with the 1980 movie of the same title, go to think link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gods_Must_Be_Crazy>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TheGodsMustBeCrazy That's what archeologists will probably think when they find this:

UPDATED June19, 2009 - Table below compares three barrels shot with the original factory iron sights on the pistol slide, which have a short sight radius intended for use with the factory 3.5 inch barrel.  I wanted to see how well the custom barrels which headspace on the case mouth shoot compared to the original factory barrel which headspaces on the semi-rim. Each column figure in this revised table is an average of five consecutive 8-shot groups, counting fliers and all, not exluding any data. The 7 inch and 13-3/4 inch barrels were then shot again using the custom scope mount and 4X Leupold fired off sandbags indoors at 25 yards.

AMMO:              Average of Five Consecutive Eight-shot groups at 25 yards                                 3.5"            7"             7"            13-3/4"         13-3/4"                              Orig. Bbl.     Douglas 10” twist       Hart SS 14” twist                                  IRONS        IRONS      SCOPE      IRONS         SCOPE Fiocchi 60-gr. JHP              4.06               3.35               not fired yet        2.69                   not fired yet

RWS 73-gr. FMJ                 4.22               3.19                1.58                   2.32                   1.34

94 MeisterFN 1.7 BE          4.38               3.31                1.53                   2.85                   1.46 

88-gr. NEI #82, 1.7 BE       3.36               2.88                1.93                  not fired yet        not fired yet

98- Saeco #325 1.7 BE      3.66              3.66                 2.51                  3.16                    2.36

The shiny barrel in the picture below is 13-3/4 inches made from a Hart .308 blank with 14 inch twist. The 7 inch blued barrel is a ten-inch twist Douglas also .308 groove.  Both barrels headspace on the case mouth and are tightly fitted so that it is necessary to pull back the slide and release it to slam forward several times to drive the barrel lug out of engagement with the frame.  Chamber drawing is attached. 

After completing the iron sight and scope groups using the 4X Leupole I will shoot again using a Trijicon optical sight on the custom split-ring clamping scope mount. This arrangement is clever and slides over either long barrel.

The answer as to why I am doing this is “because I could." The Meister 94-gr. flatnosed .312 bulet of 92-6-2 alloy shoots as well as good Euro hardball. The NEI #82 shortened to an 88-gr. plainbase with two driving bands and one grease groove also shoots very well.  The Saeco #325 SWC is acceptable, but less accurate, as its increased seating depth causes a case bulge in some brass, and profiling in the Lee Factory Crimp die cases base deformation in some brass.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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jimkim posted this 29 April 2009

I'm glad I'm not the only one who comes up with stuff like this. Have you ever converted a S&W model 10 to 30 carbine? I always wanted to try that. I will one day, but someone has to invent better ear plugs first. Jim

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Fred Sinclair posted this 29 April 2009

"because I could", Hey, nothing more is required. Wish I had one.

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Ed Harris posted this 29 April 2009

jimkim wrote: I'm glad I'm not the only one who comes up with stuff like this. Have you ever converted a S&W model 10 to 30 carbine? I always wanted to try that. I will one day, but someone has to invent better ear plugs first. Jim Model 10 frame won't handle it. A modern L frame would, but I'm not sure the frame opening is long enough.  Would be close....

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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RicinYakima posted this 29 April 2009

You're right Fred, “because I could” is a most excellent reason. Along with “because I wanted one".

Now to name this class of “Ed's guns":

Beretta Buntlines

Tall man's pocket pistols

Bid overalls belly guns

Ric

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jimkim posted this 29 April 2009

How about “Ed's pocket Squirrely pistol".

How about an N frame? I think i read about a US Navy armourer or  machinist making one from a 357 mag S&W revolver back in the early forties. Still need better ear plugs to shoot it though.

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JimmyDee posted this 29 April 2009

I didn't understand that.

Did you mean you read about it in the forties or did you mean that he did it in the forties and you read about it?

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JetMech posted this 30 April 2009

RicinYakima wrote: Now to name this class of “Ed's guns":

Bid overalls belly guns

Ric It's hard to type when you're laughing so hard, but that gets my vote!

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Ed Harris posted this 30 April 2009

RicinYakima wrote: ...Now to name this class of “Ed's guns" Mas Ayoob described the concept I was thinking of in this article:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_9_52/ai_n16547826/>http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mim0BQY/is952/ain16547826/

"...It was said that Kaiser Wilhelm hunted stag in the forests of Imperial Germany with a long-barreled Artillery Luger fitted with a shoulder stock, because his withered arm kept him from manipulating a conventional rifle. The long-barrel Luger was indeed an elegant and accurate pistol. The Kaiser had discovered the elements making up "the gentleman's pistol.” Those would include a long barrel, manageable weight, superb accuracy, soft recoil, and an intermediate caliber such as 9mm Luger or equivalent. It should exhibit superior workmanship to the point it's a conversation piece, something to show friends just so they can admire how well it was conceived and executed."

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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jimkim posted this 30 April 2009

I read about it in the late eighties. He did it in the early forties.

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hunterspistol posted this 03 May 2009

 I just have to ask now.  The .308 I understand, but what's the cartridge? A 30 Luger? or something in 30 Carbine or Makarov?

  You shouldn't keep us pups in suspense, ya know.

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jimkim posted this 04 May 2009

Knowing Ed I'm going with 32 acp.

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Ed Harris posted this 05 May 2009

hunterspistol wrote: I just have to ask now.  The .308 I understand, but what's the cartridge? A 30 Luger? or something in 30 Carbine or Makarov?  You shouldn't keep us pups in suspense, ya know. I used the .308 groove diameter barrel to make a tight-bore .32 ACP - see additional photos I pasted into the original message.  Using the original iron sights and short sight radius it's a 3-inch grouper at 25 yards with my aging eyeballs.  I hope that an optical sight will shave an inch off of that.  But the rig carries nicely as-is using a Hunter Holster for my High Standard Model B and doesn't weigh much.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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bb posted this 05 May 2009

ed, very interesting! i hope you are rewarded with some tiny groups for the effort. i look forward to reading about your testing.

that article on the 'gentleman's pistol' is also a good one. it may have been the piece that pushed me over the edge in contemplating the purchase of a 952. i have had it now for maybe a year. it is a good one, but i don't love it. i am still wringing it out though.

my tastes seem to be similar to yours. or maybe influenced by yours is more accurate. i have sold most of my fire-breathers and am moving more and more toward the graceful, accurate, low recoiling bunny gun/ gentleman's pistol category.

the wilhelm mention reminds me of this from skeeter skelton. "it can't be proven now, but they say my Uncle Can employed his shoulder-stocked Luger carbine to drop venison.  I remember a funny-looking little rifle hanging from Can's saddle horn on piney-woods outings that graved my young mind with a life-long hungering for the forests of northern New Mexico." He sure could write.

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bb posted this 09 May 2009

i think a perfect pistol of this type would be a Ruger MK3 in 32acp. Ed, since you worked for ruger, do you have any knowledge of whether ruger ever considered a centerfire, blowback version of the MK 1/2/3?

i suppose they would only sell 3 or 4 of them; the demand probably isn't there unless they could achieve bullseye level accuracy to entice the competitors.

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Ed Harris posted this 11 May 2009

Luigi Zoirnio and I built a concept trial on a Mk.I frame which shot .32 S&W wadcutter, using Hammerli magazines.  The basic action would have worked for a .32 ACP also, but to introduce a centerfire version only for European sale would have required distributors to order 10,000 of them, and there was not sufficient interest.   If you have a spare $5million to offer up front for the first 10K units and have a friendly distirbutor they would probably do them for you.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Mike Gordon posted this 17 May 2009

A .32 center fire Ruger might be a good idea to us, but I doubt there is much of a market here in the U.S for such a gun.

Back in the early 1990s I worked as a salesman for Sile distributors in NYC, a gun distributor and importer.  They were the original importer of the Benelli B76 pistol. When I worked there they had no more 9mm B76 but several hundred .30 Luger B76 pistols that they couldn't give away (the dealer price was less than $200).  Sile also had about a dozen pure blowback B76s chambered in .32 S&W with target sights in their warehouse.  After some cajoling I convinced a dealer in NJ to buy one of the .32 S&W guns.  About two weeks after he bought the first one, he called back and ordered the rest.

Sile distributors imported some really neat products from Italy but they had no concept of marketing other than getting a salesman on the phone.  Of course that maybe why the B76, a wonderful gun, is a rarity today. 

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bb posted this 18 May 2009

ed and mike, thanks; that is interesting info.

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CB posted this 24 May 2009

Ed, your “artillery” model Beretta needs a tangent rear sight.

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Ed Harris posted this 12 June 2009

I have finally reached the Third Level of Bunny Gun Nirvana!  These groups are from 25 yards, shooting the 94-gr. Meister LFN .312 bullet.

Last group of pictures added are the same pistol, but with the 7-inch barrel installed, preparing for next range trip~!

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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JeffinNZ posted this 13 June 2009

Now THAT is a cool 'pocket' pistol!!!

Cheers from New Zealand

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bb posted this 16 June 2009

great stuff Ed!

do you have any guess as to how much each variable has improved accuracy? i mean, groups improved with the 7 inch bbl and factory sights, compared to the original bbl. do you think that was due to tighter fitting of bbl. to slide? or maybe some difference in chamber or bore? and going from 7in. to the long barrel, do you think the improvement in accuracy is mainly due to the scope?

have you fired the 7in bbl with scope for groups yet?

do you have an end game in mind? to somehow get the tiny groups from a holster gun? or maybe the 7in with scope is the end? it looks pretty cool the way it is! i bet that is FUN to shoot.

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Ed Harris posted this 16 June 2009

Be patient, I still have lots more firing to do. 

When firing the M1935 Beretta the Hart barrel headspaced on the case mouth averaged 4 inches or better with good ammo at 25 yards compared to 6 inches from the slopppy, pitted, wartime barrel abused by corrosive ammo.  That's what I get with my Beretta 3032 Tomcat “mousegun." WWII era .32 autos with good barrels, such as the FN 1922, CZ27, Colt M, Walther PP, etc. firing RWS or Fiocchi 73-gr. hardball or good cast loads average 4 inches at 25 yards, and with the best ammo they like will approach 3 inches.   That's as tight as I can hold with 60 year-old eyeballs.   

I have fired both barrels with the original factory iron sights on the slide which are set up for the short sight radius for the factory 3.5 inch barrel.

I have also fired another barrel machined from the same chunk of Hart barrel and chambered with the same reamer on my M1935 Beretta pistol with iron sights. This was machined to normal dimensions for easy disassembly and was not tight fitted.  But the two for the M70 require cycling the slide with takedown latch turned, slamming the slide closed against the barrel breech a half dozen times to drive the barrel off the frame.   Reassembly requires careful alignment of barrel lug, coated with anti-seize and assembled with recopil spring and guide into the slide, and pressing the muzzle against the bench top until the slide-barrel assembly is in position so that I can re-engage the takedown latch.

I have fired the 13 inch Hart (14-INCH TWIST) barrel with 4X Leupold, I still need to fire the 7 inch Douglas (TEN-INCH TWIST) barrel with the 4X scope, then I will shoot them both again with 2X scope and Trijicon reflex sight to compare with irons.

End game is to have most accurate, fun small game gun which is more effective than a .22 LR and which doesn't require a “can” to be low noise enough so as not to disturb the neighbors.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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hunterspistol posted this 16 June 2009

     Third Level of Bunny Gun Nirvana looks pretty good.  You've just averaged 1.4” groups, the Leupold must be making a difference.  The .308 makes sense, that's what TC does with all their 32 calibers, and they are accurate. I like it a lot.                                          Good Luck

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Ed Harris posted this 19 June 2009

UPDATED June19, 2009 - Scroll up to the original posting. Revised Table compares three barrels shot with the original factory iron sights on the pistol slide, which have a short sight radius intended for use with the factory 3.5 inch barrel. I wanted to see how well the custom barrels which headspace on the case mouth shoot compared to the original factory barrel which headspaces on the semi-rim. Each column figure in the revised table is an average of five consecutive 8-shot groups, counting fliers and all, not exluding any data.

I consider the project a success, having achieved its design objective: a semi-auto .32 ACP suitable for field small game hunting as accurate as my Colt Officers Model Target .32 S&W Long (.32 Colt New Police) revolver.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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