My Ruger .44 magnum is driving me crazy. I've been shooting it in the Hunter Pistol postal matches, this is my second season. Last year I won a match mostly by default. I've been unable to get consistent accuracy, with many different loads tried. My bullets are the Lyman 429244 and the RCBS 250-SWC. The first is a GC Keith type, the RCBS is a plain base Keith type. Powders tried range from Red Dot and Bullseye, per info gleaned from this forum, to the usual slower stuff like 2400 and 4227. Powder charges have all been kept on the low end, using established loading data. I tried sized, .430", as cast, .433 or so, LLA and Lyman lube, straight wheelweights, harder alloys, and even some factory made bullets. Yesterday I took three loads to the range, planning to pick the best one and shoot for score with that. All went according to plan, sighters on target, first shot with RCBS and 7 gr. Bullseye a 10! This may be it! I'm thinking now I'll break that barrier and start shooting some good scores. Next shot a zero. And so it went, ending up with what's probably a new record low score. The bullet holes in the target aren't exactly round, I'm suspecting tipping, and the grooves in my bore have lead stripes along the edges and general leading closer to the breach. If I was shooting for group it would be around 8"! I'm shooting from a very solid bench with sandbags, a well mounted(3 rings) Bushnell 2x6 3200 Elite. I'm ready to listen if anybody has any suggestions, I'd like to be setting a different kind of record.:dude:
Super Blackhawk blues
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- Last Post 16 November 2012
A couple of things.. One problem may be the lube.. We found this out when we were getting shots 3” out of the group and a lube change corrected that. Next, check the size of the front of the cylinder (throats) Ruger had problems with that in the past, but it is correctable by having the throats reamed. I shoot with a fellow that shoots consistently in this class at our regular club matches. We use the TQ-4 at 50 yards and the MR-31 at 100 yards and he shoots in the 390's all of the time. Also he discovered that when you rest the pistol, use a regular bag on the front and them rest your wrist on the rear bag not allowing the butt of the pistol to touch anything. At our club it is single load, single fire. He marks a cylinder and shoots out of that same cylinder each shot. Try some of these and see if it helps.
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Thanks for the help. I also got some of the same advice in a pm from a fellow shooter. The fact that your friend shoots a Ruger in the 390's is both amazing and encouraging. I can see now that luck isn't going to get me any high scores. I was thinking that if I tried enough combinations something would work, but no cigar. Will mike cylinder throats and slug bore, have been single loading. The no butt on the bags is interesting, I'll try that too. By the way, I'm sending that sorry target in, no DNF for me. An NFL team doesn't walk off the field when they're getting creamed. Maybe my July scores will be up out of the toilet! With a CMP Garand match and the new Light Production Rifle coming up I may have to quit working and focus on the important stuff.
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Measured cylinder throats, .440” and one at .438". I'm measuring right at the face of the cylinder, with as little of the micrometer in the chamber as possible. If this is the correct place to measure there's no way the bore will be bigger than that. I need to read up more on slugging revolver barrels.
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Now you have me wondering. I just got a SuperBlackhawk Hunter from my brother. It has a custom bull barrel but the cylinder is original. The throats extend from from the end of the chamber to the end of the cylinder. I would think the correct place to measure would be mid-point of the throat, checking for consistant throat diameter. Just about any bored hole will measure larger at the ends, in my experience. Ruger throats have been known to be tighter than groove diameter. On the other hand, your measurements are way to large. I would expect a correctly bored throat to be minimum groove diameter to plus .004 or so max. I'll measure mine tonight and post them for comparison.
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Tried measuring the throats about 3/16” in from the face, hitting around .435". Reading up on slugging throats, will try that next. Lyman 429244 with gas check sized in Lyman die to .430” fall through chamber with no resistance. I had the impression throats were tapered, for some reason. Learning as I go. From what I've been told and read here I need to try the biggest bullet that will chamber and go for a softer alloy. I see through the 'search' feature this topic has been covered, but I do appreciate all the help.
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If you measure the throat at the face of the cylinder and they all measure the same and it is .435, then you need to get a .435 bullet. LBT will cut a mold at the diameter for you and he does make 4 cavity molds.
My SRH 44mag is a .430 on all holes so that is what I use. Shoots darn good too.
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I measured the throats on mine last night and got from .4302 to .4305. Very consistant from front to rear of the throat. That size reinforces my brothers experience that this one is a tack driver with purchased cast bullets that measure .430. You may have some competion soon in the hunter/pistol matches! Damn, now I have to buy another mold! All my molds are .41 or 45ACP!
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How hard is your bullet metal??. Try ww's and make sure your bullets are not hard.. Mine works great with 429421 and 2400 .Clean good and try softer bullets.
rus
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I'm still finding it hard to believe my throats are .44, but that's what they measure at the face. Double checked three times, checked calibration on micrometer. Maybe I have a lemon, but you know what they say. Thanks again guys. DB, bring it on, let's see how your's shoots.:cba:
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Bullets sized .430 will slide in my super blackhawk with lite thumb pressure.I shoot RCBS 240 SWC GC. I load 15 gr of blue dot with most all my 240 bullets it is very accurate in my Ruger. I have shot many rounds of 240's loaded with 18.5 gr of blue dot in my S&W 629 but the new manuals don't list that much blue dot anymore. I have been working with a Lyman 429640 HP cast with 20 to 1 it weights 270 gr. my load was with blue dot but they didn't shoot as well as I like. Today I tried 21 gr of IMR 4227 I was impressed that load got logged in the note book.
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Good news! I actually applied pretty much every suggestion made here and just more than doubled my Hunter Pistol score for this month compared to last month. I may even be in the $$:P$$, we'll see. I got the Lee 310 gr. .430 mold and casted up a bunch using my new kinder gentler SOFTER alloy. Shot 'em as cast, .435"!! LLA with a little mineral spirits. No leading. Light charge of Unique. If I was shooting for group it would be about 4” at 50 yds. Not fantastic, but a big improvement. When you shoot for score it's just like shooting for group, except the group needs to be in a certain spot. Next I'll try a little heavier charge and hand lubing with something. A couple fliers dropped me down a lot. (4s) I'm also thinking a real pistol rest will help. The trick with not letting the butt touch seemed to help too, the fliers may have been me not keeping even pressure on the bags. Oh, no gas checks were used. Didn't think they'd do me any good at about 850 fps. I'm still working with the RCBS 250 Keith, getting better, now it's vertical stringing, but at least no leading. That Lee bullet was designed by a CBA member, it looks like an old bus, very cool. Edit; The Lee 310 was designed by Dale 53, Lee picked up the design and made it a standard offering. The mold I got (and others here too) is by far made at a higher standard than other Lee molds I've had, round as round gets, and it's only $20.00!! With 6 grains of Unique it kicks less than a 250 gr. with 9 gr. Unique. It cuts a hole in the paper like a wadcutter and is the most accurate bullet yet in my SBH. Now that's versatility. And as Dale said, it'll penetrate a black bear at 125 yds. from any direction! If you have a >44 Special the bullet has two crimpimg grooves to accommadate for length. In my not so humble opinion this may be the do-all be-all bullet for a .44. It'd be interesting to hear if anyone has tried it in a carbine.
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tturner53, Anything special you do with the Lee 310 grain mold? I have one and tried casting with it, and couldn't get it to fill out as I liked until it was too hot and the bullets all came out heavily frosted. I don''t mind a little frost, but these didn't have any shine to them at all. I was casting WW's, do I need to add a little tin to the alloy with this mold? I put mine away over a year ago after purchase, but now you've got me thinking maybe I need to get it out again. I've always blamed my vertical stringing on me and the way I grip, (or don't grip) my SBH. Is it something else I need to be looking for? Any help, suggestions, would be appreciated. My SBH will allow a .430 bullet to be pushed through the throat of the cylinder, but a .431 isn't going to go. And my S&W 44 mountain gun will barely let a .429 pass. Is it best to size my bullets to the throat size of the cylinder? Or in my S&W, do I just load my .430 bullets and squeeze them through the throat?
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GL, first of all I should confess that my success with this bullet was more luck than science. I am by no means a technical guy. Much of what I've learned came from reading this forum and just trying a lot of combinations, my shotgun method. As far as the mold, I learned about it here. The throats on my chambers are actually .440!! I figured out I'd need a big bullet. With my alloy of ww + 50% pure lead I get a .435 as cast, so I decided not to size, since my only sizer die is .429. That led me to the LLA. I didn't use a gas check because of the very light charge of Unique, 6 gr. If you're using straight ww then your alloy will be harder than mine, I think the soft bullet is a big part of the improvements I've seen. I read here how important it is to clean the mold before the first use, so I really cleaned it, first mineral spirits, then hot soapy water, then alcohol,(rubbing:(). Then I treated the mold with NEI Mold Prep, and lubed the pins with bullet lube. I cast hot, but am experimenting now with cooler because of zinc worries and I want a pretty shiny bullet too. Your ww should have plenty of tin already, but as I said, I'm not an authority, just talkative. Two other things I changed, really cleaning my barrel good and leaving some Ed's Red in the bore, and not letting the butt touch the rear bag. Before I rested the gun solid on bags, front and back, now I focus on my grip carefully to make sure it's consistent. Oh, after all these years it dawned on me you can't really see lead fouling when the bore is wet. Get it DRY and you'll see it all, I was amazed at how poorly I've been cleaning my guns. I think that bullet will work just as good for you as it has me, I have expectations of more improvements. Alsooo, my humble advice is don't worry about frost, it's way better than wrinkles, and some actual experts here don't seem to think it's harmful. You still have time to sign up for the August Hunter Pistol match, Give 'er hell and have some fun. My score before this match was actually a CBA record low other than DNFs, you can't do any worse than that! HTH:fire
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"Give 'er hell and have some fun"--my kind of shooting. (And I'll try not to beat your record low). I thinks it's time to dust off my mold and try again. I wonder how it'll shoot in my Super Redhawk? oooooo! I can see hours and hours of fun coming!
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GL, any news? Shot the last match for Hunter Pistol, 6A, yesterday. Upped the charge to 7 gr. Unique. Lee lists the max at 7.2 gr. The recoil wasn't bad at all, I believe this would make a good huntin' load with the Lee 310 gr., although I did get a little leading and accuracy went downhill a little from the 6 gr. charge. When I get more time I'll try these sized with gc and a different lube. I'm not going to win any money with this load in this gun but at least it's usable now, it will certainly hold minute of bear which is the reason I put the scope on in the first place. I shot for score, but my groups would be about 5” at 50 yds. with this one. I think a less shaky shooter could bring that down to 3” with this combo. For now I'll be focusing on upcoming postals matches for lever actions, deer rifles, and light production rifles. Going to get going on the Lee Loader project with TL bullets as cast in my 9 & .45. The name of that game is “How cheap and simple can it be?” Thanks to all of you who have offered help with my SBH blues. I'm happy now.:D:dude: PS While I'm at it thanks to all you guys behind the scenes who make these matches happen. Tim Turner
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Still more good news! The mailman brought me a surprise, I won the July postal match I shot with the SBH, in my category I mean. I will admit only two of us entered that part of the match and I squeezed by second place by two points. Just the same, I want to be known as 'Crack Shot' from now on. I'm going to the den to make room on my braggin' wall for the nice certificate I got and figure out what to do with my prize money. Don't worry, I won't forget all the “little people” who helped me make it to the top.:}
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I want to be known as 'Crack Shot' from now on. I'm going to the den to make room on my braggin' wall for the nice certificate I got and figure out what to do with my prize money. Don't worry, I won't forget all the “little people” who helped me make it to the top.:}
You are the Man! Crack Pot it is, from now on. Oops, was that my outer voice? I hate it when that happens!
Honestly, good job. If I could get my act together (unlikely this year), I'll try and give you a run for your money. Don't spend all those winnings in the same place.:fire
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tturner, I've been working 75 to 80 hours a week and haven't had time to spend casting, but I have collected 7 buckets of wheel weights. The long hours at work should be over in another week or week and a half, and I'm going to try the Lee mold again. I'll clean it like you did, and try again with different alloys. I've always sorted the stick on wheel weights out of the clip-on, but now I am going to try mixing in some stick-on with the others to see if that helps. I've always thought that harder is better, but now I'm thinking I'm wrong. Just printed out a membership application for the CBA, my wife will mail it tomorrow. I'll let you know about the mold and bullets, Crack Shot.
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That's a lot of hours! I hope you get some CTO. Congratulations on joining the CBA. I think you'll like the magazine you get,"The Fouling Shot". I reread mine over and over. Let me know how that Lee mold project is going. If I can help let me know.
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I have only used the Lee 310 RF GC at full velocity in the .44 Magnum. I use it with GC with a full load of H110. I seat it long (crimp groove nearest the base - this is IMPORTANT to keep pressures as low as possible).
We get accuracy at 100 yards with this bullet that you normally see with a good Bullseye gun at 50 yards.
However, I reserve this bullet for hunting use. The recoil is noticeably heavier over the 250 gr bullets. However, it is undeniable that it is a VERY accurate bullet in a variety of .44 Magnums and just about maximizes killing power for the larger big game.
At velocities up to 1200 fps, I use Wheel Weights + 2% tin for good fill out. I use a harder mix for full loads in the .44 magnum (Wheel Weights/ Linotype 5/1). Keep in mind that with the use of GC's you may be able to get by with a softer bullet (that often depends on the individual revolver). A good rule of thumb is to use ww/2%tin up to 1200 fps and use a bhn of about 18 for magnum velocities.
I prefer a 240-250 gr Keith style for regular use. I use the same bullet in both .44 Specials and .44 Magnums.
I am currently using Lars White Label Carnauba Red for bullet lube:
http://www.lsstuff.com/lube/index.html
The poster who is having fill out problems with the LEE mould often indicates a mould that is not quite clean. I scrub mine with detergent and a toothbrush. Then scrub it again, drying with very hot water. Lee uses a preservative that is HARD to remove. Then add 2% tin to your ww's and I'll bet it fills out just fine.
I do not cast at elevated temperatures. Normally, 725 degrees is as hot as I need. I have a small manicure fan (in the fan department of your local Target or Walmart department stores for about $7 or $8.00) mounted at my bench six or eight inches from the top surface of my mould. Two seconds under the fan, this will cool the sprue and maintain proper mould temperature for continuous casting. My bullets commonly have a light frosted appearance. Here is a picture of some H&G #503 bullets:
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Thanks Dale. Now that I'm done with the postal match I'm going to try a full house load in my SBH, get ready to hunt. I don't have any 110 right now or the fun budget I did have so I'll be trying 2400, 4227, or #9. I have a lot of #9, and this time I'll try sizing w/gc. So far I've been shooting them as cast bare bottom. Will also increase the hardness. GL, hope you're not working yourself to death. Now I know this must be confusing getting advice first to try a softer alloy, then a harder one. Dale is talking about full power loads for hunting that also happen to be very accurate. Take your pick, but for my money I'm going to try the hunting load approach, Dale oughta know what works best, he designed the bullet in the first place. It sounds like 6ptsitka may try this bullet in one of his .444 Marlins, that should be a real stomper.
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tturner, I finally got time to work with the Lee mold, and cast about 450 bullets, after finally figuring out the casting technique this particular mold likes. It casts pretty well, makes decent bullets, and I was proud of myself until I measured them and they all measure .4265 to .4275. Really consistant, but way under what I need. I thought my calipers were goofy until I put them in my .430 sizing die and they just fall through the die. Gotta figure this one out. I don't know how to make them .003 to .004 bigger without having them way out of round. As a last resort, I'll speak with Lee, but .....? Any ideas?
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I'm no expert, but the first thing that came to mind is what is your alloy? If it's straight ww then that mold is out of spec. If your gun is anything like mine you'll need a fatter bullet than that. I know the mold is sold in two sizes, .429 or .430, if I remember right. Which one is yours? Even if it's the .429 something is wrong. That's gotta be discouraging after all that work and time. Let me know what you're using for alloy, in the mean time maybe some of the other guys here may have a thought. Don't give up, in the worst case a call to Lee will straighten things out. EDIT; DALE!!?? I hope you see this. You know more about this bullet than anybody, what do you think? I've been bragging on how much I like my new mold, it threw .432s which I water quenched, gonna drive 'em hard. Do you think GL49 got a lemon?
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GL49; First of all, the mould should cast WW's+2% tin at .431-.432". I size to .430” for all of my revolvers.
All of my revolvers (I have ten or 11 .44's - Specials and Magnums) handle .430” bullets just fine.
A revolver that needs .430” bullets will NOT shoot well with .426” bullets. I would call Lee next week and tell them you have an undersize mould and you want to exchange it for one that works. Tell them you want it to cast a .432” bullet. Undersize bullets tend to lead regardless of the hardness. Bullets that lead excessively will NOT shoot well.
I just came back from the range with a relatively new acquisition, an S&W 629 Light Hunter from the Performance Center. After some firing pin problems (had to go with a “extra length” firing pin) the gun started shooting really well. Standing, at 25 yards, I shot a couple of timed fire targets 100x100 with a high “X” count. The important thing was EVERY SHOT WAS ON CALL. This was with a 250 gr Keith (H&G #503) at target velocity in .44 Special cases. The bullets were sized at .430".
Dont' waste time trying to make an undersize mould work - just put the heat on Lee to exchange if for one that works.
Right now, everyone in the reloading tool business is overwhelmed with orders. As as result I have had reports of just about everyone who seems to have slipped up on quality control and some things get out that should not. We cannot let these companies get away with shipping bad quality stuff and expecting us to make the best of it.
Lee has been very helpful to me in the past and I believe that they will do right by you. Don't call up raising cain and expect to get good service. Be polite, but firm, and hopefully they will correct the problem.
That 310 gr Lee is a great shooter and a premium bullet for large game. However, it is a bit heavy for day to day use and the recoil generated from full loads is substantial. Harder recoiling guns are harder to shoot well, particularly for someone relatively new to the sport.
I would like to make one observation. I have seen many who have little experience with using a micrometer get bad results when measuring soft lead bullets (even comparatively hard alloys are soft compared to steel). Some have screwed the micrometer down so tight that they have actually deformed the lead to the point that they get bad readings. So, if you do not have machinist training, use the micrometer “gently” to get a proper reading from a lead bullet. Always clean the micrometer by taking a piece of clean paper towel and “take the papers measurement” until you feel drag when pulling the paper through the micrometer. This will clean the spindle faces and won't read larger than it really is (a light coat of grease on the faces will enlarge the measurement a couple of thousandths).
GL, keep us posted as to your progress and let us know how Lee responds to your mould problem.
Dale53
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tturner, Dale, thanks for the information. I am (was) casting the 310 grain Lee bullet from clip-on WW alloy, (no stick-on weights), and getting a bullet size of .4265 to .4275. I have kept the mold in the original box which identifies it as a .430 mold. I added 2% tin to the WW alloy and now the bullets are really pretty, but still measure .4275 max. on the top driving band and .4285 max. on the driving band nearest the base of the bullet. One bullet did measure .429 on the lower band. I did clean the mold prior to using with dishwashing detergent and a toothbrush. I ran four of the bullets through my Star .430 sizing die and you can't tell where the die sized anything at all, but they sure look nice when filled with Carnauba Red. I'll contact Lee on Monday and see what they will do. Gotta get this bullet to work if it's as good as you say.
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I'm busting out the ol' SBH for another go at postal match #6A for next year. After re-reading my above posts I see I didn't know what I was doing when measuring the Ruger's throats. I've since slugged them and they're not that bad, all slug right about .432” with a .431” groove. I've acquired an old Lee single cavity 210 gr. .44 WC mold that may be a good fit. The goal is target loads using .44 mag brass. I may try Ed's trick for .38s and seat the WCs backwards. And a softer alloy.
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tturner53,
Anything special you do with the Lee 310 grain mold? I have one and tried casting with it, and couldn't get it to fill out as I liked until it was too hot and the bullets all came out heavily frosted. I don''t mind a little frost, but these didn't have any shine to them at all. I was casting WW's, do I need to add a little tin to the alloy with this mold? I put mine away over a year ago after purchase, but now you've got me thinking maybe I need to get it out again. I've always blamed my vertical stringing on me and the way I grip, (or don't grip) my SBH. Is it something else I need to be looking for? Any help, suggestions, would be appreciated. My SBH will allow a .430 bullet to be pushed through the throat of the cylinder, but a .431 isn't going to go. And my S&W 44 mountain gun will barely let a .429 pass. Is it best to size my bullets to the throat size of the cylinder? Or in my S&W, do I just load my .430 bullets and squeeze them through the throat?
I was having trouble with the LEE 430-310-RF mold dropping at exactly .430. I added about 2 ozs. tin to my usual Lyman #2 & it started dropping at .4315 to 432. I size to .431 . . . I'm a happy camper!.>
If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.
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Tim,
I have had good results with seating the bullet below the case mouth, down to the end of the normal bullet seat. It reduces the combustion chamber volume, but you need to use 44 special data.
Ric
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Thanks for the suggestions. It's funny because I was thinking of seating the WC out long, just the opposite. I'll try both. With a light .44 Special charge of Unique. I got this mold to try in a H&R .444 for a super light load. It was fair but not great.
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Last I shot my .44 Mag I was using 7.0 grains of Win 473AA and the 429421 bullet cast out of wheel weights. It shot 1- 1 1/4” at 25 yards. Seemed more accurate than my wiggle holding allowing.
You might try a new manufactured comparable powder.
9.0 grains of 473AA gave me 942 fps so 7.0 grains should be in the 44 Special range. I did not chronograph the lighter load.
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Hey Tim,
Have you slugged the bore? I like/love Rugers but they ALL have a 3-6 thou barrel constriction. So even if your throats are spot on where you want them, the barrel at the frame is usually 4 thou smaller. Now that the bullet has been sized in the frame, it leaves and rattles down the barrel. Thats a problem that cant be fixed by bullet fit.
Id check if I were you. You WILL find, unless the gun has seen 10k rounds of jacketed ammo, the constriction is bad, if not severe.
Smiths dont have it, Taurus dont have it, expensive revolvers dont ever have it by design. Rugers have it by design.
There is a fix but its a gunsmith deal, not a lead/mold/heat/lube deal.
Mike
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I'm going to look up slugging the bore on a revolver. Is this to be expected with a GP100? That's on my wish list and a local shop has used 4” agency turn ins for $400, nice shape. I've read a lot of good stuff about the accuracy of the GP100 with cast bullets.
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I recently bought the LEE 430-310-RF & was dissapointed that it dropped at .430 with Lyman #2. Added 2 ozs. tin to a 10 lb. pot of Lyman #2 and it dropped at .432!
If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.
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How do you check for barrel constriction where the revolver barrel is threaded into the frame?
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ALL RUGERS!! ALL MEANS ALL , to quote my pastor.
Tim, slugging the bore is pretty easy. Dig up an egg sinker a bit larger than your barrel diameter, a pure lead egg sinker. Grease it up.Stick it in the unfriendly end of the gun, hit with leather mallet till it disappears. Push it thru with same mallet and proper diameter wood dowel. Make sure cyl is OUT or crane is extended. The last part of the passage is the constriction, you will then measure the egg sinker after it pops out.
What you will find is that the throat dimension you have slugged in the past will be a correct"ish” value, say .431
You will find also that the egg sinker measures around .427-424, where a proper barrel with little or no constriction will be .428-.427 at groove
The muzzle will be correct diameter, .428-.427
The bullet gets squeezed about 3-4 thou too much and then rolls down the barrel.
Do you get heavy leading at the first inch or so of the barrel past the forcing cone? Especially with a heavy load? That constriction is why. Its not bullet fit, its barrel too tight.
The fix is taylor throating, maxi throating. Have to remove the barrel and freebore the first 3/4 inch. Stick barrel back on, shoot better for the rest of the guns career.
Or shoot 10k j-bullets at full throttle and wear the barrel out at that tight spot.
Or fire lap, which is hit an miss, painful to do but most says their problems go away 90%
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Thanks for the help. I'm going to redo all my measurements. I've gotten instructions on how to just slug the muzzle end which should be revealing. Looking at the measurements I wrote in my note book a couple years ago I see the answer might be right in front of my face and I missed it. Notebook says '6 groove .431'. I'm sure I pushed that slug straight thru as I had no idea how to back it out of the muzzle so it then would have to have included the constriction prone area. I'll redo and see. I also found a good article on tuning up a Ruger single action which includes an action job and firelapping.
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