Lee Tumble Lube Failure?

12K Views
Last Post 16 December 2010

Standard Member

kokojoe posted this 22 June 2009

Hi All,

I need some feedback on this.

I've used the Lee TL356-124-2R molds for my 9MM rounds. I've done everything I could think of and tried almost every suggestion, but still get signficant barrel leading on about 1/3 of the muzzle end. One of the fine members here sent me some conventionally-lubed cast bullets at about 12.5 BHN and, after 100 rounds, I had no perceptable leading. It was like a miracle!! So, I've done alot - here's a list:

<>Always tumble lubed. Started with strait - then cut 20% +/- with mineral spirits. Now back to strait. Lubed before sizing only - and before and after.<>Used Lee sizers at .357 & .358. Also used unsized considerably.<>Used Lee Factory Crimp Die and without.<>Varied loads from starting loads to near maximum.<>Varied COL from minimum to maximum. <>Tried Win 231 & WSF.<>Used BHN of 14 on up to 18+.<>Always started with a clean, fresh barrel.<>Usually shoot 50 to 150 rounds.<>End up cleaning with the brush & copper scrubber trick I read about - it's the only way to make this a manageable task after each session.<>I water quench.<>I use the Lee tester for BHN. My reading was cooberated with another member. My alloy is WW and plumbing pipe lead to drop the BHN. To insure I had tin I even had some sticks of body lead (I'm guessing it was 30/70 or something like that) that I'd add in - still got the leading.

Also, FYI, my tumble lubed bullets for my 45 ACP also are leading.

So, I guess my question is - is this just me?? or are there others who have not been able to not have this leading issue?

I am going to take one more stab at it - I'm guessing someone would suggest an even lower BHN and air cooled only. So, I'm going to mix up a batch with a target of 12.5 BHN (same as friend's conventionally lubed miracle bullets) - with the tin added to be sure - then air cool them - tumble lube them and load them unsized. But, in the mean time - any feed back would be appreciated.

Attached Files

39 Comments

Order By: Standard | Newest | Votes

Standard Member

hunterspistol posted this 22 June 2009

It isn't just you. Hang with me on this description and I'll get to the 9mm. I started out working up loads for the 7mmTCU in a Contender using an RCBS 145 grain bullet. Special order took a while and the bullet only went 100 meters on paper. In the meantime, I ordered some Carnuba Red for higher velocity.

I went to pouring the Lyman Devastator for the 9mm and had a 10” barrel to work up loads with. Sized to .355, lubed with Carnuba Red. After working the powder charge up for 50 meters, the barrel had a lot of lube left in it. Had to get acetone to clean it out. Same as yourself, ended up with the bronze bore brush eventually.

Back to the 7mmTCU, ordered a 135 grain Lyman mold that the guys online said would work. It did, I unofficially slugged the barrel by firing both gas checked bullets with 1/2 grain powder(SR4759). The 145 stopped at the first layer of sweatshirt material that was in the box on the ground. The 135 went through and kept going! I had to drop that 1/2 grain way down to recover the bullet. All I can conclude is the Lyman fit better with a longer bearing surface. I loaded up the powder test for the 135 Lyman, it went on paper at 200 meters, will reach 250. This is with Carnuba Red. The barrel cleaned up easily, nowhere near the fouling of the 9mm. I guess it worked better at higher velocity than at the speed of the 9mm.

I'm beginning to think about going back to an alox mix for the 9mm, I had no trouble before with it but, I can't be to sure that it isn't the bullet fit. I have a 124 grain target roundnose that I'm going to switch to. I want to see if the results change with a better setup. Chances are it may be better or worse but,who knows which?

I've had to wipe the Carnuba Red from the base and leave only the lube groove filled to see if that will help. It's a good lube as far as handling goes, isn't sticky and stays put, but, once fired down the barrel, it seems to matter how much of it there is, with that particular bullet anyway. I've never had alox lubes do this at any time.

Attached Files

Standard Member

runfiverun posted this 22 June 2009

are you obly putting one thin coat on? or two.

you can thin out the alox with mineral spirits for the first coat about 50%

let it dry for a day or so then do a second coat and let dry.

Attached Files

Standard Member

chboats posted this 22 June 2009

How hot are you loading them? I shot about 40,000 rounds of 45ACP using 4gr Win 231 under a 200gr bullet cast from scrap lead with just enough tin to make it cast. I used 50/50 beeswax/alox and a couple of other home made lubes. All were sized to .451. They were used for targets only and kept around 700fps (more comfortable to shoot). I would shoot as many as 300 in a day. The only cleaning I ever had to do was a wet swab. I don't know how hard the bullets were. The scrap was made up of sheet lead, range lead, wheel weights and anything else I could find.

The only time I had a leading problem was when I loaded the same bullet to the highest velocity I could get. I don't remember what powder I used but It was a MAX load. The way I got the lead out of the barrel was fire a clip of jacketed ball loads and went back to the target loads with no problems. I'm not sure this is safe but I didn't blow up the gun.

I guess what I am saying is if you are using MAX loads and don't need them that hot, back off the powder a little and they may even be more accurate.

Good luck

Carl

Attached Files

CBA Member

tturner53 posted this 23 June 2009

Maybe you could trade some alloy with your friend, he casts his conventional bullet with your alloy, and you cast some of your TLs with his alloy. That oughta tell you if it's the bullet or the alloy causing the leading. And it'd tell you what a good friend you have! HTH Edit; If you figure it out let us know, I'm starting a 9mm and .45 TL project myself using old Lee Loaders. Tried cutting the LLA with mineral spirits for the first time today, a little ms goes a long way.

Attached Files

Standard Member

kokojoe posted this 23 June 2009

Yes, I have some of his unlubed bullets - so I'm going to put the Lee Liquid on today and maybe get a chance to try them tomorrow. I will let you know.

Attached Files

Standard Member

kokojoe posted this 23 June 2009

runfiverun wrote: are you obly putting one thin coat on? or two.

you can thin out the alox with mineral spirits for the first coat about 50%

let it dry for a day or so then do a second coat and let dry.

or do the second coat with johnsons paste wax and let sit till dry or mix the wax with bees wax at a ratio of 3 jpw to 1 beeswax by melting the b-wax and stirring in the jpw then use about a quarter of what you think you need. I've tried both ways. And I've also tried thinning with the mineral spirits. I've never tried the paste wax - I might try that.

Attached Files

Standard Member

kokojoe posted this 23 June 2009

chboats wrote: How hot are you loading them? I shot about 40,000 rounds of 45ACP using 4gr Win 231 under a 200gr bullet cast from scrap lead with just enough tin to make it cast. I used 50/50 beeswax/alox and a couple of other home made lubes. All were sized to .451. They were used for targets only and kept around 700fps (more comfortable to shoot). I would shoot as many as 300 in a day. The only cleaning I ever had to do was a wet swab. I don't know how hard the bullets were. The scrap was made up of sheet lead, range lead, wheel weights and anything else I could find.

I guess what I am saying is if you are using MAX loads and don't need them that hot, back off the powder a little and they may even be more accurate.

Good luck

Carl

With the Lee liquid I've tried everything from the starting loads to near max. Still get the leading throughout the range. Currently I'm right at mid-range loads.

Attached Files

CBA Member

Ed Harris posted this 23 June 2009

Stick to alloy no harder than 13 BHN and use the lightest load which cycles the action reliably. I think you are casting too hard and trying to load to hot. Try about 3.5 of Bullseye or 4.2 of 231. Keep velocity subsonic. Your hard quenched bullets aren't sealing the bore.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

Attached Files

Standard Member

kokojoe posted this 23 June 2009

OK - BASELINE AND UPDATE BELOW:

Just for the baseline: My friend's 120 grain TC lubed with his homemade beeswax lube at 12.5 BHN and sized to .357. I loaded this with 4.3 WSF - this bullet set to 1.110 COL. Shot 100 rounds with no perceptible barrel leading. I use Ed's Red made up and this with patches cleaned the barrel. No scrubbing. I cleaned a couple minor spots with the brush that could have been left over. THIS IS THE DESIRED RESULT!!

Today:

1: Used my Lee TL356-124-2R - a Lee tumble lube mold @ 124 grains with round nose - unsized. BHN 16+ and used Lee liquid tumble lube. Loaded 50 rounds with 4.3 WSF at 1.120 COL (same setting as above on bullet seating die so I don't have to change and it seats them as 1.120 with RN and 1.110 with TC). Ended up with my typical significant leading on 1/3 of muzzle end. Took brush with copper pad threads to get it cleaned up again.

2: Same bullet as #1 above but loaded to 3.9 with WSF (.1 below published starting load). 50 rounds resulted in about 1/3 of the leading as #1 above - but still needed brush and signficant cleaning.

I have the TC bullets from friend tumble lubed and just cast a batch of TL bullets to the lower 12.5 BHN and air cooled them. So, these two scanarios will be ready to shoot in the next couple days. I'll report back on them.

Attached Files

Standard Member

runfiverun posted this 23 June 2009

change your lube or do the second coat. if his lube worked you can melt the 50-50 down and use it as a tumble lube too just use a cup and swirl them around till the grooves start to fill up.

Attached Files

Standard Member

hunterspistol posted this 23 June 2009

Nobody mentioned it so, here goes. Have you tried the mineral spirits to clean the lead out? Mineral Spirits paint thinner from the lumber yard works wonderfully for removing lead.

Attached Files

Standard Member

kokojoe posted this 24 June 2009

ROUND #2 UPDATE

Ok, tried two things.

1: Used my friend's TC 120 grain with Liquid Tumble Lube at starting load of 4.0 WSF. This is the same bullet that I shot at 4.3 grains with his lube and no leading. With the tumble lube at 4.0 WSF, there was leading in about 20% of the muzzle end. Similar to my TL bullets that were tumble lubed and shot at 4.0 WSF.

2: Used my carefully alloyed & cast TL bullet 124 grain. Loaded the same as #1 above at 4.0 WSF. Cast at 12.5 BHN and air cooled. Then tumble lubed. Still had leading in that last 20% + of the barrel. About the same as #1.

Feeding with both of the above loads was poor. My guns seem to need the mid-range load in order to feed well. At 4.2-4.3 I've not experienced problems in feeding.

So, at this point I have established that the conventional soft lube did not have lead fouling at 4.3 WSF. I used the same bullet with tumble lube and a lower charge and got fouling. I guess the only remaining thing to put it all on an even playing field is to try the tumble lubed bullet with the same 4.3 of WSF and see if there is still leading. I understand that sometimes the starting load may not be enough to bump the bullet to seal well. If, in fact, there is still leading, then I think I've eliminated all possibilities except the Lee Tumble Lube?

Attached Files

CBA Member

Duane Mellenbruch posted this 24 June 2009

I was discussing this thread with another shooter this morning. I was asking him what his proceedure was for cleaning and storing his guns when shooting cast. He cleans and then runs a damp patch through the barrel and leaves it damp when in storage. He does not wipe out the bore but does discard the first shot into the berm. He has no leading.

It is my understanding that you store your firearm with a dry bore and am wondering if others do this and if they have leading beginning with the first shot. That appears to be about the only thing that is done differently and it would surprise me if this was a factor. Duane

Attached Files

CBA Member

tturner53 posted this 24 June 2009

It sounds like the leading is mostly occuring in the last 1/3 of the barrel, near the muzzle. Remove that portion of the barrel(cut it off) and your leading problem should be solved. HTH:shock::}

Attached Files

Standard Member

hunterspistol posted this 24 June 2009

Have no idea what tturner is drinkin'! As Duane mentioned, I usually leave a light film of oil in the barrel after cleaning, does make some difference.

Attached Files

CBA Member

tturner53 posted this 24 June 2009

One of the gentlemen here sent me a bottle of Makers Mark to have the wax seal analised.

Attached Files

Standard Member

kokojoe posted this 25 June 2009

With any luck, I'll get out this AM with a few more tests and report back. Thanks for the continued feedback.

Attached Files

CBA Member

tturner53 posted this 25 June 2009

KK, just kidding about cutting off the end of your barrel! I'm working through a devilish leading problem myself, a Ruger SBH .44 with throat issues. After all the help I got here I hate to say the problem may have been poor cleaning technique. I've found out you really can't see lead deposits that well when the bore is wet from whatever. Get it dry and you can really see it, mine looked pretty bad. Going to the range today to take another shot at a postal match, Hunter Pistol. Anybody shoot jacketed in a revolver to remove stubborn lead?

Attached Files

Standard Member

canalupo posted this 25 June 2009

I don't shoot jacketed out of my 9mm to clean lead but I frequently switch between hardball and cast. One reason is to get new once fired brass. In NE pa. you can still get Winchester white box for around $25 for 100rnds. The other reason is I shoot whaterver I could get my grimey mitts on. It does seem to keep barrel cleaner with less leading. maybe the copper leaves a residue that slows down leading. Some day I will figure it out.

Bob D

Attached Files

Standard Member

kokojoe posted this 25 June 2009

TODAY'S UPDATE

Got out again today. Can't say I resolved anything but have more information for input.

Before that, just a couple things. tturner made a good point, when the barrel is wet, the leading can not really be spotted because the cleaner is running like excess paint in the barrel. My procedure to check for leading and fouling is this: first, I run a wet patch through about 3 or 4 times. Then a dry patch one or two times. This cleans out the powder & debris. Then I use those magnifying visor glasses to look at the barrel, carefully rolling in indirect outdoor light to get a really good look. That's where I find the streaks of leading. Someone proposed it might be a build up of excess Lee Liquid lube? I suppose it could be, but don't think so. It's pretty stubborn stuff. I used Ed's Red heavily, then use the bronze brush wrapped in the copper kithchen scrubbers. Then, there still may be a little left. I try to get it all off each time to have a fair base for comparison. I have a tiny bronze brush that I may use for one or two final spots. But, I won't rule out a build-up and will try to be more careful to see if I can actually get a scraping or sample that I can examine to be absolutely certain that it is lead.

I used Lee tumble lube only on both my friend's TC 120 grain and my TL RN 124 grain that both test out about 12.5 BHN. 4.3 WSF. Both fed well. If you remember, at the starting load of 4.0, both had terrible feeding in both guns I used. I shot 48 of the TC and 36 of the TL. Both had moderate leading that required a good scrub to get out. Concentrated in the last 1/4 or so of the barrel.

Then, I re-shot my standard 16+BHN tumble lubed only at the same charge. 34 rounds resulted in leading maybe 50% worse than above and moderate leading near the breech end.

I did try shooting the above with a wet bore. With 16 rounds there still was moderate leading; although not as bad as above.

So, the original baseline of the TC with the conventional lithi-bee lube at the 4.3 WSF is superior to anything with the Lee tumble lube so far.

Now, I'm going to load some more of those and confirm this one more time. Then I'll try the tumble lubed bullets and see if there is some way I can verify that it is leading and not a build up of lube. Again, I'd be suprised if it was lube because Ed's Red will take the lube right off a bullet with no scrubbing effort at all.