Windflags For Cast Bullet Shooting

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  • Last Post 05 August 2009
CB posted this 21 July 2009

Shooters I have written several windflag Posts on other Websites so here's one for you. First defining what a windflag might be. Knowing it or not our human senses act as a windflag even when we are not shooting. Wind coming from different angles and with different velocity and acceleration patterns affects bullet flight. If you could be the bullet you would be aware of the need to stabilize your flight to shear your way towards your target. For cast bullet shooting from 50 and 100yd I use 2 wind flags. I walk them out setting them where I feel the wind. Usually both inside the first half distance. A windflag next to the target serves no purpose as by that time the bullet has stabilized you can't bring it back therefore the conditions closest to the shooter matter the most. So a simple 2 flag set-up for cast bullet shooting is best, easy to compare 2 flags and make a judgement. One condition I avoid shooting in is 2 flags pointing in the same direction tails maxxed out and my mirage paper racing off the paper. This condition leads to no reading capability and if you persist in shooting you will add horizontal to your group for each shot. Bad Ju Ju. Shoot the flag condition that will repeat. You probably get the feeling I am talking from my BR experience, I am. But whether I shoot a BR gun or my factory stock Rem 722 in .222 when I shoot for targets I apply the same methods. I think if a guy made his own flags and used them while shooting he would see how his shots are grouping. Things like a let-up or increase in wind or a change in direction or all of the above would let you make decisions to hold off ot hold on. To me a day at the Range without flags is giving up to Mother Nature and a waste of a target. Easy to make a windflag. Now we have have coroplast which some get for free. A simple pattern, I like a small vane for cast bullet long and narrow. A piece of delrin or wood for the center post, cut a groove in the post and attach the vane. Surveyors ribbon any color not so long so that it drags the ground except at Ranges like Phoenix where flags seldom or never hang limp. On those type Ranges make them longer. I attach the flagging to the vane using a small/medium fishing swivel hooked to the vane then loop a piece of 6/10 lb test fishing line about a 1” loop. The line fed through the swivel then is double tied with the knot end always making contact with the swivel loop. Now you can tie your flagging to the loop end. I have used double and single flagging. The good part about this if your flagging gets ragged or if you want to change color of flagging cut it loose and you still have your loop for new. Shooters with same color tails may wish they had another color when most fly orange. What would work good is attach the vane in the back half using a piece of piano wire balancing the flag on the wire end with a small counter weight on the wire end. Use a 3/16” nail for the stand and drill a hole to match in the post. For a stand any tripod or stiff pole beat in the ground, 1/2” pole is good. A sectioned pole will give you some adjustment for flag height. What I have used and it works is a pair of surveyors lathe with ribbon attached driven into the ground. While setting the flags keep in mind of your neighbors by staying inside your shooting lane. Wind flags can be a nuisance to a guy shooting an AK or a pistol. Avoid getting your equipment shot up and trying to extract compensation for your short sighted placement of flags. What have you got to lose by trying a pair of wind flags except your pride. Mother Nature has no regard for bullet flight. But you can cut the odds by reading conditions with a simple application of Newton's principles. Mark my word you will notice the improvement on your targets using windflags and have fun learning how to shoot all over again. Stephen Perry Angeles BR:fire

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JetMech posted this 21 July 2009

Good article, Stephen. I had to look up what coroplast is. Benchrest central.com has an easy-to make flag. Question: What height do you set your flags at?

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CB posted this 21 July 2009

Bill

Flag height for cast bullet and factory guns I set them so both are level to your eyesight and parallel to your shooting bench. For my BR use I set 4 flags. I crouch down and level all 4 so they run parallel to my shooting bench. NBRSA has a flag setting rule but for practice range use  I set them high enough so I can look at them with no effort.

Stephen Perry

Angeles BR:fire

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CB posted this 21 July 2009

Guys

If interested you can see a sample of windflags at my San Gabriel BR School in 2006. That particular day I was working with Walt Berger of Berger Bullets in the bullet making instruction. All the bullet making gear is mine. I planned the school for 9 months. We will have BR 3 our 3rd BR School in 2010 at Angeles BR Range. Hope to shoot 100 & 200. You can access the BR School in 6mmBR.com, Article Archive, Benchrest School. I wrote most of the articles for the school too.

Stephen Perry

Angeles BR:fire

 

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CB posted this 23 July 2009

Anybody Else

Are any other Cast shooters that have tried windflags. I suggest if you want to see how well your Cast shoot try the flags. Shooting for groups without flags is hadicapping your barrel. The barrel wants to win with each and every shot.

Stephen Perry

Angeles BR:fire

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CB posted this 23 July 2009

I think you're the first.

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CB posted this 24 July 2009

Pat

To myself I seem a humble person to others risky. Saying that I have 83 windflags of which they are 7 patterns. I would share with some in PM's my designs and ways to capitolize on their use. I am not Newton but his life runs in my veins.

Stephen Perry

Angeles BR:fire

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billwnr posted this 24 July 2009

Rick Graham windflags spoken here.

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CB posted this 24 July 2009

Bill

I have shot next to Rick at Visalia while he was developing and selling flags. Good flags but I don't watch propellor flags. Like I said in another Post I have 83 flags in 7 designs so new flags that come out are like mine except for the propellers. There is one style flag out there however that I would like to have and they are the Smiley Hensley flag without propellers.

Stephen Perry

Angeles BR:fire

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Joe_C posted this 01 August 2009

Stephen .

 I am looking into getting a few wind flags , and looking for suggestions.

 I am shooting a  BPCR rifle ,45-90 . most of my shooting/testing  is at 200 yards .

 I am still working up loads for the rifle , so i try to do most shooting when there is as little wind as possible .

A couple weeks ago , just to have something to watch , i started sticking   some  rods in the ground at  50, 100 , and 150 yds. with a piece of surveyors ribbon tied on them so that i at least had some indication of what was happening. I had about a 12” section of the top of the rod bent at 90 degrees , and the ribbon tied at the end , so that it could hang down freely .

 I am kind of"confused” as to what to look for in a flag . ???

Do i want single vane. double vane,  propeller , ball end.(why choose one over the other )  And how many should i actually set out?   I would think that i want at least 3, set  at the distances i now have them . 

 Since the range is close to my home , and i am currently doing load developement , i can kid of   “pass” on having to shoot in extreme wind conditions ,(for now) , so maybe that might have an impact on what type of flags to buy ????????

 

 Any and all   suggestions very welcome ...

This is one of those areas  where i don't know enough to even ask the right questions..............

thanks

Joe .

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CB posted this 01 August 2009

Joe

You did well Joe you asked just the right questions after you used some of your own time thinking of the possiblities of what you want for windflags. Let me say up front   outside of a BR shoot not may flags show up at the practice range. I shoot NBRSA centerfire where everyone has a set of flags. I do not shoot Cast BR so I do not know whether the Cast guys do at their shoots, if they don't use flags they should.

To be successfull in paper or silohuette shooting you need to be able decipher the conditions in front of you and around. This is why BR shooters use their flags and a black stripped mirage paper placed beside their target. Wind and Mirage are common terminology in the target shooting game. I also shoot wind and mirage when I practice. Lets get off the subect one second. All those Savage guys that claim 1 hole accuracy send them to my BR tange with plenty of money I have a box for the money when they can't perform as advertised.

Joe since you will be getting your first flag set go with the single vane no propellor. These flags are easy to read. Rick Grahm joined CBA recently his windflag making info is here on CBA. He makes nice flags and can help you allot to. Surveyor tape is fine. There are 2 types of tape. The first is the thin material the other is thicker tape that construction and surveyors use. I use the heavy tape but both work.

Joe what is important with flags is you shoot when you know you need to shoot not just shoot for no reason. Your group shooting ability will amaze when you add flags to your equipment. The majority of shooters outside BR neither know that wind and mirage affects their group shooting or don't care for such things. Distances of 100,200,300 are where wind and mirage reading pays big dividends.

Stephern Perry

Angeles BR:fire

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Joe_C posted this 02 August 2009

Stephen .

 Thanks for the reply .  

 I couldn't find any info on here about making flags (doesn't mean it is not here , just my lack of skill finding the info ) , but i did go to Ricks website. 

 Would you suggest getting the flags that he has displayed on his home page? 

 They are a plain flag , with a  ball  , and tail . 

  Also , how many would you suggest for  200 yd, shooting , and at what distances would you suggest placing them . ? 

 thanks again for the help .

 Joe.

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billwnr posted this 02 August 2009

I use Rick Graham windflags and they are very sensitive to wind conditions. Also he uses sailcloth for the tails. Sailcloth seems to give a better read of the wind than surveyors tape as surveyors tape “maxes” out in a light wind while sailcloth still has wind velocity reading ability remaining. Sailcloth is a heavier fabric.

I bought them after sitting next to him at a club swap meet. He had a demo flag sitting on his table and it moved to indicate very slight breezes.

My earlier ones had the pivot made from braizing rod and weren't as sensitive as the ends were rough. I ordered a set of his shortly after the swap meet.

 

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CB posted this 02 August 2009

Bill

Sail cloth for tails may seem like a better material for flagging but it's not. Sail cloth is slow to react to changes in wind which gives the perception of an easy to read flag and it's horizontal wind component is splinterered based on the curl in the tail.

If you shoot at Phoenix you will see more flagging than anything. I used to feel sorry for the guy at Phoenix with the 36" sail cloth tails. All I saw the cloth doing was spinning in circles or a switch and the sail cloth would curl over the top. Too slow how do you read that condition. At Phoenix the smart locals and smart visitors replace their shorter tails with a long single surveyor flagging sometimes a foot or so laying on the ground, use the construction grade for Phoenix. When the winds starts heavy as it most always does the length of ribbon pulls up in a long vector never reaching 90 deg from the pole.

I sold several hundred sail tails at San Gabriel for a Visalia buddy of mine. I bought one set black I still have that set new in a tube.

Stephen Perry

Angeles BR:fire

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billwnr posted this 02 August 2009

That's the problem I see with wiggly surveyors tape. It wiggles all over the place in a slight breeze and once the wind is at a certain level doesn't show any wind increase.

Sail cloth seems to work for the better shooters. Also the reason for keeping sail cloth in a tube is to give it the “u” shape. That way it raises and lowers in the wind and doesn't shimmy all over the place like the flimsy tape.

You don't still use surveyors tape, do you?

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CB posted this 02 August 2009

Bill

The better shooter uses what works. Most every Range I have shot BR at all around the Country shows more flagging than anything else. Phoenix is home Range to Ocock, Bruno, Berger, Frei all HOF shooters. You have good shooters in the NW I shoot with some of them too but no HOF shooters in Washington, Oregon, and California. Using flagging has been around since the first windflags showed up on a BR field, a long long time ago. I am not saying that flagging is the only way to go only the most popular way Do a little traveling come down to Visalia and watch the flags fly.

Why would I write this if I din't use flagging Bill. I have had 4 flags with surveyor ribbon set up in my backyard for 2 days. I do this when I have shoot coming up. Vislia has a 3 day shoot on Labor Day weekend I always go. I talked with Rick last weekend he wants to go to Visalia but he is sending his son back to College like I am and is watching expenses.

I started this Thread to get some interest in using winflags in Cast bullet shooting. A good wind flag reader will be able to create their own groups not just hold in the same spot each shot and have your target be a weather report of prevailing conditions.

Stephen Perry

Angeles BR:fire

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billwnr posted this 02 August 2009

Stephen, is there a reason you aren't offering “tips” on the 6mmBR.com and benchrest.com forums any more? It might be best if you'd get a few “creds” by shooting your 6x45 with cast bullets and posting your results before continuing more.

I too, like you, have shot next to good shooters.

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CB posted this 02 August 2009

Bill

We don't seem to chime in. Let somebody else have a turn at the windflag Thread. I appreciate your thoughts but not you snide.

Stephen Perry

Angeles BR:fire

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PETE posted this 02 August 2009

  Strange that more CBA shooters don't use windflags. They are almost standard equipment in Schuetzen shooting where we shoot to 200 yds.

  Here's a picture of both a single and double vane I have.

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CB posted this 02 August 2009

Pete

Seems we are a student of eachother in use of windflags. Only thing I could recommend Pete for windy days attach a long single piece of surveyors tape construction grade.The tape will less likely to blow straight out and give you something you can read. Is that a Smiley flag next to your Hood. I am a fan of the Smiley's.

Stephen Perry

Angeles BR:fire

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PETE posted this 02 August 2009

 Stephen,

  Regular construction tape might be worth a try if I can find some. Taping a bullet into the tail seems like it might be a good idea. The thing wrong with tape is when the wind gets up to 15 to 20 mph, which it does fairly regularly.

  Any kind of flag system you use is arbitrary anyway, and you have to do quite a bit of shooting on windy days to see how much windage you have to crank in for a given angle of tape elevation.

  Need to make one of those mirage boards you've talked about to. Our range faces North with a line of trees on the right so it takes till about noon before you can really see the mirage. I think a mirage board would be helpful.

  I think one thing a lot of guys forget is the amount of hold-off..... if that's what you do..... will be a different amount if you go in the opposite direction, both vertically or horizontally. I've found the following chart helpful in getting this right.

PETE

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CB posted this 02 August 2009

PETE wrote:   Strange that more CBA shooters don't use windflags.  I don't think this is true at all. I always see flags in front of almost every shooter when I'm at a match. Is the guy who's going to get a load up for hunting or just wants to shoot a few rounds down range going to mess with flags? Probably not but in the BR side of cast bullet world most everyone uses flags and have for some time. People aren't shooting aggregates in the 2s, 3s, 4s, and 5s by ignoring the wind and not using flags. Especially when what they're shooting is leaving the muzzle at 2000 fps and probably has at least 4 times the drift of a jacketed BR cartridge.

I realize that a lot of jacketed bullet BR shooters think we're a bunch of numbnuts over here in the cast bullet world but take a look at that wonderful little 30 BR that's the current rage in the jacketed game and see how long it's been on the scene. Or how about fitting the ogive of a bullet to the throat angle, sounds real familiar to me. 

It's easy to point fingers and give advice but I'd suggest it be done when someone is at the top of the heap and not when at the present time they're not even on the roster. 

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CB posted this 02 August 2009

Pat

Hate to break your bubble but nobody in the BR jacketed world even concerns themselves with the BR cast world. Pat couldn't you be a little more considerate of my Posting and not point fingers at me. I'm trying hard to be the nice guy here. I've been at the top of the heap and on the bottom. Where have you been in your shooting. Productive discussion appreciated.

 

Stephen Perry

Angeles BR:fire

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CB posted this 02 August 2009

Pete

Try a surveyors supply store for construction grade flagging. If I might suggest I would buy orange, white, green, blue, and red. Some backgrounds need a contrasting color to be effective. I like your wind wheel and the wind rose.

Stephen Perry

Angeles BR:fire

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KenK posted this 02 August 2009

Stephen you may be a nice guy.  However; I can tell you for a fact that myself and quite a few others here wish you would either shut up or go away.

It may not appear this way to you but you come off as a know it all, blow hard, jerk.

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CB posted this 02 August 2009

The below is from the 6BR.Com site in an article about the 30 BR so someone must be paying at least some attention.

"The origin of the .30BR is somewhat murky. In truth, the 30BR is much the same as a .308x1.50", or a .308 Barnes. Those cartridges have been around for decades. They were primarily used for “cast bullet” cartridges or handgun silhouette chamberings. As such, they were never considered suitable for serious Benchrest. Today, with our quality Lapua cases, precision hand-swaged bullets, and 1:18” twist barrels, I believe the full potential of thirty caliber precision is very nearly realized."

Please realize that like you I'm trying real hard to be nice also. All I ask is that before someone starts throwing out advice, calling people fools, or stating how easy something is that they at least get their feet wet and do it. Where you've been in your shooting has absolutely nothing to do with shooting cast bullets and since I've been involved in the cast BR game for a few years I guess I've been more places than you at least in this venue. Productive conversation has to start with both parties knowing the subject and by not assuming everyone is a bonehead. My suggestion would be to join the CBA and search this forum and the website and learn as much as you can about the competitive, hunting, plinking, and any other uses of cast bullets out there and then come back for productive discussion. Once TWO WAY discussion starts you can take what you know and what you may learn and put it to use to shoot those 1/4 aggs with your 6x45. As far as I'm concerned you're more than welcome here but you have to understand there's a lot of pretty smart guys that belong to this forum including past champions and to me some of your posts come off as bordering on being insulting.

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CB posted this 02 August 2009

Pat

I said from the beginning that I am a long term caster for range work and some small game hunting. I have really tried to stay away from the BR part of Cast since I have no access to it now. I do have an extensive career in BR jacketed which is easily traceable. When I cross reference jacketed to cast it is in shooting where I see allot of similarities since I have done both matter fact I will shoot both at Angeles next Friday. To me this Windflag Thread is my experince using such and others who build them. I use windflags for practice shooting and competition.

I will join CBA now that I feel welcome. One cabbage patch baby asking me to leave don't scare me I am sharing Cast with guy who casts for personal shootin. I read allot here and leave alone the subjects I am not familiar. Cast rifle bullets I started Cast in 1962 I started BR in 1977. in certain calibers I write on. Thanks for your concerns and I will heed you advice the best I can.

Stephen Perry

Angeles BR:fire

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.41 magnum posted this 02 August 2009

going away was only one option, you may chose the other

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PETE posted this 02 August 2009

 Pat,

  1980 or thereabouts was the last time I attended a CBA match at Windhill before it was Windhill. I might be mistaken but I don't recall any wind flags. Your comment on there being lots of flags at CBA matches is well taken and I stand corrected.

  So... With that in mind, I was only pointing out that considering this is a cast bullet Forum there weren't many people commenting on wind flags. Several wanted more info as to what kind, and their effectiveness, so that was what I was trying to provide.

  Since you specifically used a quote from my post I will have to assume you meant me with that “top of the heap, and bottom of the roster” comment.

  I don't like to brag on myself but I guess I should give my bonifide's to speak somewhat coherently on windflags and shooting in general. I have been U.S. Regional High Power Champion in my class, along with State bullseye pistol champion in my class. I currently hold a Master indoor pistol card, and an Expert outdoor pistol card. I've taken State Championship in Air Rifle & Pistol, along with placing every year I shot Skeet & Sporting Clays at the Iowa Games.

  In the Cast Bullet Realm I have been casting bullets since 1955 and have shot them in every major rifle used by the U.S. I usually place in the Postal matches I shoot on occasion, and won the Military Postal a coupla years ago. In BP shooting I won the NCOWS Bufflao Match at their Nationals the two years I shot it, plus their LR match (500 yds.). Shooting in ASSRA matches I've shot in our bi-monthly local matches and can say I win my share.

  Over the years I've gotten enuf medals, & awards to sink a ship. Etc., Etc., blah, blah, blah, But enuf of tooting my own horn.

  I thought one of the “rules” of this Forum was to be considerate of all members whether you agree with their position or not. Now Steve and I were having a nice conversation about windflags, and from the looks of the “views” it seems a few people are interested in what we have to say. Now whether you like Steve, or me, personally should have no bearing on things.

  With that in mind I'd like to hear what you use for windflags, with maybe a picture of same, and your opinion on what you think the strengths and weaknesses are.

PETE

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tturner53 posted this 03 August 2009

I use WalMart bags on a metal stake. Works great, like a wind sock at the airport.

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CB posted this 03 August 2009

Pete, My answer was directed at Steve and I used part of your post to illustrate a point I was trying to make. I use 3 Harris and 2 Flying Fish flags with Smith tails. I can't remember who made the poles but they're the segmented kind.

I agree that the point is to be considerate and when I start to get multiple complaints about someone who other forum members see as not complying to that rule it's time to say something.

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PETE posted this 03 August 2009

  Pat,

  I was pretty sure that most of your reply was meant for another, but seeing as how you didn't separate them out it could be construed as all being directed at me.

  Possibly you might consider in the future, for multiple replies in one message, separating them out by naming each person your comments are directed to.

  The other point I'd like to make is that any problems with another Forum member should be dealt with in private and if they can't be resolved then your forced to ban them. And that goes for anyone taking cheap shots at someone thru a public message.

  Anyway. Nice set of wind flags! I assume the butterfly is on the trellis. :) Isn't it amazing the number of different ways wind flags can be made and still do the job well. I shot at a .22 match once (came in dead last) and there had to be 75 flags out in front and at least a dozen different shapes and sizes. Looked like a field of daisy wheels! :)

 That's why it's imperative to make up, or have made up, and use, your own set of  flags. That way you'll get to know how yours react in a given condition. Using someone else's flags means you have to figure them out, and then hope they shoot next to you at all the other matches. Not very likely.

PETE

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CB posted this 03 August 2009

Pete I'd prefer not to deal with problems on this forum through PMs because I don't want anyone having the chance to come back later on here or other forums saying things that aren't true and making claims of being picked on by Nazi moderators or owners like I've seen happen in the past.

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Wally Enga posted this 03 August 2009

OK --- Lets get back on the subject of Windflags.  :)

Here's a shot of my flags looking downrange to the 200 Yd Targets at a cast bullet match at Hawkeye Range --- Sioux City, IA.

Wally

 

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roadie posted this 03 August 2009

I agree with Pete on this, problems with a member should be resolved by PM, not in public. I don't use windflags as I'm primarily a hunter as opposed to a target shooter, but in the future I intend to do more target shooting with cast.

I read the windflag thread to learn....not see a peeing contest and thats what it is becoming.

pat i, Maybe it's a question of tolerance, tho I certainly do not consider myself tolerant of people, but what exactly are the “problems” that Mr. Perry is causing?

I really don't see them, and I can't view arrogance or egos as a problem as Mr. Perry is surely not the only person on this forum with attitude. In my eyes, people like that have to back up their claims and Mr. Perry will or he will not, but to bicker in the meantime is simply ridiculous and counterproductive.

Nobody is learning anything from it. It's simply showing who has the biggest ego.

roadie

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roadie posted this 03 August 2009

Wally, Your flags look like they are calibrated, how is that done?

roadie

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Wally Enga posted this 03 August 2009

roadie wrote: Wally, Your flags look like they are calibrated, how is that done?

roadie

Well not really --- that would not be allowed.  From what I understand these wind probes are approved as long as they have only dot and line markings or colored areas but can not be defined with numbers. When you got to a Cast Bullet Nationals like the one in Raton, NM this Sept you will see quite a few in use.

Wally

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hunterspistol posted this 03 August 2009

:coffee   Here's my questions, where does a guy find Windflag supplies for cheap?  The wind hits 50 mph in Texas and I can't afford to destroy too many sets.  How about a few links to this stuff.  I saw the custom made ones, nice.  I live close to the range, take care of it but, I'm still mostly a hobbyist.

      And mirage paper, how does that work?  I've seen a video of how mirage will lift an image about a foot above it's real location but, how do you read mirage or mirage paper and apply that?

     Have one project rifle going, considering more.

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CB posted this 03 August 2009

roadie wrote: In my eyes, people like that have to back up their claims and Mr. Perry will or he will not And in the mean time people that have or have not backed up their claims should consider walking a little softer around other people who might have backed up theirs. What might be construed as bickering to you in some of these threads is in actuality me getting complaints about someone's behaviour and replying to it no matter who it is. I appreciate your opinion about taking things to PMs in cases like this but I don't agree with it. I've seen it happen on other forums and the next thing you know the guy who brought the problem on himself is on every other forum he could find complaining about how his civil rights were violated and the place is run by a bunch of Nazis.  Keep things in the open and you won't end up with nonsense like that.  

 

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tturner53 posted this 03 August 2009

helllo? Walmart bags?! You guys gonna let my 'windbag' joke just go? Tough room.

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billwnr posted this 03 August 2009

hunterspistol wrote: :coffee   Here's my questions, where does a guy find Windflag supplies for cheap?  The wind hits 50 mph in Texas and I can't afford to destroy too many sets.  How about a few links to this stuff.  I saw the custom made ones, nice.  I live close to the range, take care of it but, I'm still mostly a hobbyist.

      And mirage paper, how does that work?  I've seen a video of how mirage will lift an image about a foot above it's real location but, how do you read mirage or mirage paper and apply that?

     Have one project rifle going, considering more.

There's all sorts of sophistication in windflags and they generally go up in dollars.

you can make the “flags” from surveyors tape to a rod, cardboard or coroplast. Coroplast is basically plastic cardboard.

You can make the tails from string, surveyors tape, some sort of tailing material that Sinclairs sells or sailcloth.  

I listed the flags and tails in order of very wind sensitive to lesser wind sensitive.  There's an upside and downside with very or lesser sensitivity.  The very sensitive will pick up a very slight, almost not there breeze but will max out in a light breeze.  The sailcloth will continue to indicate wind strength long past surveyors tape that at that point will be madly flapping in the breeze. 

If they are “madly flapping” they only indicate direction at that point and no further increases in wind intensity.  Conventional Wisdom (to bring up an old phrase) would say not to shoot in those conditions, but if those conditions are the only ones available in the 10 minute time allowed, then one needs to know when the “flat spots” are and when the winds are increasing/decreasing.

Posts to support the flags can be as simple as a piece of surveyors tape taped to a discarded arrow shaft, to a piece of braizing rod, up to a machined post rotating in a cup of smooth delrin.

If one uses the surveyors tape it might be a good thing to put a styrofoam coffee cup on the end or some other sort of weight to make the tape usable in light to moderate winds.  Or to use dual tailing with one with a weight and one without.

Personally I use Rick Graham's windflags as I believe “you get what you pay for” and his are very sensitive in the wind.   

I will add my windflags are better at reading the wind than I am.

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CB posted this 03 August 2009

tturner53 wrote: helllo? Walmart bags?! You guys gonna let my 'windbag' joke just go? Tough room. You just live to throw little things like that out there don't you?? :)

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Wally Enga posted this 03 August 2009

tturner53 wrote: helllo? Walmart bags?! You guys gonna let my 'windbag' joke just go? Tough room. Hey, nothing wrong with using Walmart bags. :P

I've even seen flags a guy made by cutting the legs out of his wifes pantyhose.

Made pretty good windsocks.

Wally

 

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JetMech posted this 03 August 2009

pat i. wrote: tturner53 wrote: helllo? Walmart bags?! You guys gonna let my 'windbag' joke just go? Tough room. You just live to throw little things like that out there don't you?? :)

Hey, some of us just aren't that sophisticated. Walmart bags? i thought it was a great idea.

Honestly, though, those of us who have not used flags before would probably be best served starting out simple.

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CB posted this 03 August 2009

Wally Enga wrote: tturner53 wrote: helllo? Walmart bags?! You guys gonna let my 'windbag' joke just go? Tough room. I've even seen flags a guy made by cutting the legs out of his wifes pantyhose.

Bet there's even a few guys that put their wife's panty hose out there with her still in them. Get a visual and audible flag that way and you don't have to go collect them when you're done shooting.

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tturner53 posted this 03 August 2009

Hi Guys!! Good to hear from ya. Yes, I have been called a smart @#$ a time or two, cost me some teeth and ribs too! Some people just have no sense of humor. I tried to picture my wife out there in panty hose in the wind, I stopped right away. 

PETE; damn that's a hell of a resume. Nice shooting.

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PETE posted this 03 August 2009

 Pat,

  You're one of the moderators so I guess you'll do things your way. Peace!

  Wally,

  Dang I was gonna post a picture of your first flag. Got one somewhere. Been so long since I made mine but I think it's called a wind probe. Was to expensive for my tastes so made my own following the description in P.S.

  For those interested the “Wind Probe(?)"  Is pretty ingenious. It looks like it would only indicate what was happening with the wind from two directions. But this isn't the case.  If you'll look at the wind chart I posted you see you have to hold off different amounts for different o'clock positions. The part affected by the wind is actually a red Dixie Cup. No matter which direction the wind comes from it is going to it will affect the position of the cup over a a portion of the arc. By waiting for the probe to settle on a given mark you can be sure that the force of the wind is the same and in the same direction.

  In my opinion Wally has his set up where it should be. As the first indicator, which is considered to have the most effect on the bullets flight at it's most unstable point.

  When using flags I set up three and put the most “wgt.” on the first one and a lesser amount on the others as they go get farther away.

  Forget now who it was but someone was asking for places to get flags or supplies. Do a Google for “shooting wind flags” and from the looks you ought to get enuf to satisfy you. Here's the guy's web site a friend and I got ours from.

              http://www.geocities.com/freighterman.geo/flags/index.html

  Looking the site over a little again I think most of your questions will be answered. Plus the cost which might make you want to makeyour own. :) Since a friend and I only live 50 miles away we went down and looked his shop over, and then went and picked them up.

  One thing I don't recall anyone mentioning is the vanes are made out of the same plastic sheeting the Real Estate people use for their “For Sale” signs. I'd look for some of that and paint to suit if you want to build some. A sheet of it costs virtually an arm and a leg.

 TTurner,

  Thanks for the compliments. I don't really like to toot my own horn since what you saw, plus a whole host of others, I've forgotten, were won over 60 years of shooting and are old news. Kind of like someone asking “What have you done for me lately!” :)

PETE

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CB posted this 03 August 2009

OK. I go to work thinking we have a truce on this Windflag Thread. I come home and I'm still being dragged under the bus. The recommedations to leave or shutup are still in my informing Thread, bad Moderator. That's OK the info on building and using windflags is getting out that's what matters to me. Time for me to sit back and let things go. I have shared all I want I share. The guy from Texas that wanted info on building in-expensive windflags can go back to my orginal Thread and get ideas, also someothers have some good ideas also here. To me windlags are for cast target shooting with most rifles and can be used admirably by cast bullet shooters for practice or competition. Really will not do much for sighting with your deer rifle since a hunter in the field for small game or large game has no time for a windlag. Though I know some varmint hunters that will throw a flag or two out if shooting off a bench.

The Poster would keeps downsizing the value of flagging is ignorant of the BR world. Excuse me for referring to BR jacketed but as I said before the 4 HOF shooters living in the Western US use winflags with flagging no cups tied to the end or pennys, short tails for gentle condtion Ranges and tails twice as long for rally windy Ranges like Phoenix or Raton.

Ok guys quit the bickering and stay on subect I'm enjoying the windflag Thread.

Stephen Perry

Angeles BR:fire

 

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hunterspistol posted this 03 August 2009

    I'd like to see a close-up of the wind-probe, interesting idea. Looks to be an “at a glance” apparatus.

     Mr. Perry, thanks for the information. That's Pat Iffland , if I'm not mistaken, shot the cover of this month's Fouling Shot Magazine, and one of the National BR photo albums on the main page. 

     As for whining about being told to shut up and go away, I just figure you owe those two men an apology and haven't learned how to do that. I think you might owe Pat one too. :shock:

     I think Wally Enga is the current champion here, these guys shot pictures of a match in coveralls and boots with an icepack across the ground, must've been all of twenty degrees that day. Seems to me, they really like to shoot.

     As Jimmy Ray from Alabama so aptly put it: “Never miss a chance to shut up".

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Wally Enga posted this 03 August 2009

Pete, I like to think of the wind probe as providing one component of the info needed to determine a firing solution to place a shot in the X Ring / group. I would caution from experience that any one first using one of these to not fixate on it and start ignoring other wind flags and indications. It will indicate the cross wind component at its location and only at that point. Nor will it indicate a change bearing down on your line of fire.

It's a looong trip for a cast bullet to get all the way down to the 200 yard line --- takes about 0.4 seconds at 1700 fps and a lot of bad things can happen as it travels thru this constantly moving / swirling / changing air mass before it makes it to the target.

You must also be aware of what  the other flags are showing about a change in direction or velocity coming across the range.

I use the wind probe mostly as a stop sign. If I have been doing well shooting in a condition with say the cup at the Right 30 to 40 degree position and it drops towards the 90 degree position or backs off towards the vertical position  --- that means stop --- do not fire now.  But ignoring the other flags is a sure disaster for your groups / score.

 Wally

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PETE posted this 04 August 2009

 Wally,

  Your message is spot on as far as I'm concerned.

  You have to be aware of what ALL your flags are doing. But the “experts", whoever they are, say that the most important flag is the one closest to you. Their reasoning, which I'll buy, is that the bullet still hasn't fully stabilized. I've heard this takes anywhere from 25 to 50 yds. and more depending on how close to the twist rate being inadequate for the length of the bullet. As such it is more vulnerable to the wind. Also, the time of flight is longest from the first flag onward, so the wind will have the maximum effect. The further down range the less the wind can act on it. In short..... if your first two flags, lets say, are “flat” and the 3rd one is straight out there will be less effect on the bullets flight than if the first is “flat” and the other two are straight out, and also if all the flags are straight out.

  For me, at our range, the problem is finding a condition where the flags are reasonably the same from shot to shot. In SS shooting most breech seat so there is a period of time between the first and second shot, so there is usually a waiting period after you're ready to go again. No “machine gunning” them in when your condition holds for a minute or so like the BR guys can do on occassion. Three shots is about the max. I've ever gotten in the same condition so holding off is a common occurence for me.

  I've got a LOT to learn about wind and mirage. I don't know how many times I'll get the flags and mirage going at what I think is right, so past experience tells me I have to hold off “X” amount. So I do and guess where the bullet goes? :(

  Your idea of using the Probe as a stop sign is a good description, and can be used for any kind of “first” flag. No matter what kind of flags I'm using I put the most “weight” on it.

  To everybody,

  I suppose most of you reading this thread are gonna think it's impossible to master wind and mirage. In that they're probably right. Just keep in mind tho that the better you get at it the better your scores will be. Even a little better is better than no idea what's happening at all. That's a guarantee! If you've paid attention to Wally's scores in the Fouling Shot.... I do since I think he's one of the better shooter's..... you'll see what he's saying in his posts here are true. Basically to become good at it you have to do a lot of shooting. Take lots of notes, and if a shot doesn't go where you think it ought to have, try and figure out why not.

PETE

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PETE posted this 04 August 2009

hunterspistol,

  Here's a picture of my wind probe. You'll notice that it's slightly different than the one you see in Wally's picture. I was going by memory that was about two yrs. old from the article in P.S. Works the same tho and cost a lot less than the $200(?) or so for a boughten one.

          

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hunterspistol posted this 04 August 2009

      Thank you, Pete.  I appreciate that, thinking delrin and nylon, I now have brass on the list.  Now I just need to pace and talk to the machinist. I work in an industrial plant but, most of what we build is on a large scale. I can see how that would work. Windflags most likely would come first though.  Still, that gives me ideas for pivots that I can get my hands on.  As far as corroplast goes, I've seen that come through the plant too.  If I'd had some idea what to do with it- too soon old, too late wise. 

     I've seen the effect of wind on groups, it shows up on some of my load tests. The difference get fairly dramatic. Now, I have some ideas to plan from, sure appreciate you guys.

    

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CB posted this 04 August 2009

Thanks for the Postings Pete.

Stephen Perry

Angeles BR:fire

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PETE posted this 04 August 2009

 Hunterspistol,

  You're welcome!

  I'm like you and spent al my life working in a large manufacturing plant. In fact the largest valve mfg. in the world as a nuclear welder. We did have a lot of brass so that's what I made my parts out of. I've got a small lathe so the rest was easy. Went to a local machine shop and they cut the Aluminum plate out for me.

  I agree it might be best to make up a set of flags first. From Wally's picture you can see he uses them to behind the probe. All the pictures I've see with the probe show the same. Along with mine there is one other “boughten” one that shows up occasionally.

  Actually tho the markings on the plate are large enuf that you can set it up anywhere on the range you want to. But like Wally I find it makes a good “Stop” sign. It seems to be more sensitive than flags, and doesn't seem to fool you like flags can.

  What you'll find out soon enuf is that you can be all lined up waiting for your condition, get it, and before you can look thru the scope to verify your crosshairs, and pull the trigger, the flags have changed. The cure for me has been to get the first flag off to the left of the line of sight a little where I can see it with my left eye, and the 2nd flag so I can see it in the scope. The third flag I don't put much wgt. on since on our range, as I've described, it will be out of the wind most of the time. Of course don't forget to watch the mirage. But there will be many times when your brain says shoot and before the message gets to your finger the flags will move on you. About all you can do then is cuss a blue streak, and forget about it. Never saw the shot yet than could be recalled!

  What I can't stress enuf to everyone is to use your flags and get to know them. That means in all kinds of weather. If you don't shoot in matches it's very easy to just pick the calmest days. Those are the days to work up loads, but once you have that done pick days that aren't really all that good for shooting. You'll learn a lot more!

  Stephen,

  You're welcome.

PETE

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JetMech posted this 05 August 2009

Alot of great information, gentlemen. I think I'll try some basic flags, maybe have 2 side by side with different size split shot attached until I decide what will work best at the ranges I use. Then I'll see if I can determine flag angle to wind velocity. That should be fun. Thanks to all for their input.

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