Finally got started on my 'cheap and simple' project, although you could say it started a long time ago.The goal is to see if I can produce decent ammo with only the basics, a Lee Loader and a Tumble Lube bullet mold. These are very inexpensive to buy and easily available to a beginner. The lead is wheel wieghts and the brass is range pickups. That means you have to buy lube(Lee Liquid Alox is about $4.50), powder and primers.Yesterday I started with .45 acp and 9mm Luger. The .45 went well and the ammo fed and ejected in my 1911, no shooting yet. Ran into a problem with the 9. Lee's instructions say you need to check the brass first to make sure it will fit in your gun before you process it, they're not kidding. I think the 9mm brass I got was used in a sub gun and was expanded a lot. The Lee kit would not size it down enough to chamber in my Tanfoglio TA90. I'm going to dig around and find some empties that were already fired in that gun and go from there. So, first lesson learned, you cannot necessarily reload any old fired brass in a 9mm. That may have something to do with the much higher working pressure of the 9mm compared to the .45acp.. My plan is to also include the .38 Special in this experiment. If anybody wants to share their 'cheap and simple' story here that's great. If there's any interest I'll post results as I go along. I know there's way better tools for the job, but this is about the cheapest setup I know of and that's the main point. Once I have 50 rounds loaded up for all three, 9mm, .45acp, .38 Sp., I'm off to the range. EDIT: I'll throw in a little background info here, the guns for this project are the 9mm Tanfoglio(which I have won matches with a long time ago), a S&W Model 19 6” barrel, and a Charles Daly 1911(my Colt was stolen and my other 1911 is really a rattle trap!). The bullet molds are all Lee tumble lube designs, probably about $20 each new, the TL356-124-SWC(I'd call it a truncated cone); the .452 200 gr. SWC; and the .358 150 gr. SWC. All are double cavity. On the boxes it says “Made for tumble lubing without sizing". I used a lyman dipper in an old cast iron pot on a Coleman stove.
LeeLoader and Tumble lube bullet project
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- Last Post 16 January 2012
I started years ago with the little Lee lead pot ($2 at the time), the Lee Dipper, and a mold all for my 303 Brit that I loaded with a Lee Loader. Worked fine.
For grins I loaded up a few 9mm with a Lee Loader last month. After a little tweaking they worked fine.
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tturner
I won't do my usual thing and comment before most of the info is in. Your's is an interesting Thread I want hear the rest from you and the others . I'll be reading out of interest only.
Stephen Perry
Angeles BR:fire
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I was hoping this might stir some old memories. Vacek, like you and probably most of us I started with a Lee Loader. Thinking back it's lucky I didn't hurt myself as I was not cautious in those days! I'd like to hear more about those 9mms you loaded up. Any problems sizing? A few things came up in my project right away, and I'm still in the loading phase, haven't fired a shot yet. The need for a caliper is big, a serious safety item. I think a beginner could get a $20 set and be fine for quite a while. I have an old plastic Lyman(25 yrs. old) says “Swiss Made” that still work good enough. Another handy but cheap accessorry is a case mouth chamfering tool to reduce lead shaving of the TL bullets. Those can be had for peanuts. So I'm sticking to the CHEAP and SIMPLE theme so far, tomorrow I load the .38s and maybe Weds. go to the range. I'll give you the load data with the shooting results. Stephen, I'm glad I caught your interest. I know you started somewhere before you became a serious BR guy. Remember, this project is primarily about having fun on the cheap. How'd you get started reloading? EDIT; A note to any beginners; the caliper is a safety item because many published loads give a minimum overall length. Going below that increases pressure.
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Trying to remember.
(1) I deprimed and sized the case with the Lee Loader.
(2) At this point I check the case with a Wilson case gauge.
(3) I used the chamfer tool and an old lee loader case expander.
(4) I primed with the Lee (red color) prime tool. This came with the old style Lee Loaders from the Mequon era.
(4) Next I used a .3 cc dipper and W231 (a light load).
(5) I seat the bullet (a 125-356 FNTL) which had been sized with the old whackamo Lee Bullet Sizers. I worked the depth until it seated right into the Wilson Gage.
(6) I disassembled my Glock 17 to make sure it seat easily into the barrel.
A fun exercise Took some time, but it works. I did experiment a little with the crimp but in the end it was more an exercise of right seating depth.
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The biggest problem I had loading the 9mm was sizing the cases. After I dig out some old brass that was already fired in my gun it was easy. I also have a Loader that has that little red priming tool, it's pretty handy. Hopefully will be able to shoot it all up tomorrow, see how it does.
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Been doing some reading, raising some questions in my head. Anybody here know the history behind the tumble lube bullet?
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t
As far as I can tell the Lee Loader works for every rifle, pistol and shotgun ammo they say it does. Lee is an engineer and so are his designers. Engineers can generally make anything work and he does it simple and makes a profit. That's what I do on my road jobs.
I have 1 Lee Loader in .222 Rem not the target set but I have everything the target set has in Wilson except the inside neck reamer which have no use for such, I outside neck turn.
The Lee works unless the neck brass is too large to fit in the die. To fix this a one time neck turn allows you to fit the neck to the die not bad here. This is basic loading best done with a caliper to be sure you are right. Like I said with any Lee Loader for rifle loading set your cases up right and forget it.
Pistol cases I don't know in a Lee just reading along I do all my pistol now on a Star. Shotgun I do on my Mec and Lyman Grand American.
Stephen Perry
Angeles BR:fire
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Test fired the Lee Loader ammo yesterday. The .45 worked perfectly, no malfunctions. 14 shot group at 25 yds. was 4 1/2” with a light charge of 231. Almost no leading. The 9mm started out good, a few x's, then opened up to 6” and two keyholes. 25 yds. also. Barrel is not too bad, but there were 3 failures to feed. Powder was light charge of SR4756, because I have a ton of it. The .38 loads all were 3gr. Bullseye. The 150 Tumble Lube went 2 1/2 ” at 25 yds. On the advice of Duane I tried a regular bullet, but unsized and tumble lubed. Actually two bullets. An old Lee mold, 358-140-SWC, a plain base design, went .360” as cast and fired, did 12 shots into 3". I also busted out an old Ideal wadcutter, #358-432, 159 grs., also .360 as cast and fired. It printed 2 1/4” groups at 25 yds. All shots were off sandbags. I didn't size the .38 cases since the bullets were oversize anyway, just crimped 'em in with the Lee Loader die body. They were loaded into a full cylinder,(no single loading) and all the bullets held their place under recoil no problem. That cut the time down to 1 minute per round to load on the .38. If there's any point it's that a guy starting out with less than a $100 could load good useable ammo for about 5-6 cents each if he tried. It also shows that the 9mm is a little harder to get good results from with cast bullets but can be done as other posts here indicate. I think Duane's point from a while back that tumble lube handgun molds aren't really an advantage is correct. For about $20 you can get a Lee conventional mold, tumble lube those as cast and use 'em just like a tumble lube bullet, but then when you get a sizer and press you still have a useful mold. Edit; I have read that Veral Smith designed the first tumble lube bullets over 30 yrs. ago then changed the design because he didn't think they were any good. I think he offers something similar for tumble lubing, if I have my facts straight.
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TT
used a lee loader in .357 for years.
Use a BBQ propane tank, a plumber's pot and a weed burner torch for heating lead. Made a “stove stand” out of a piece of 6 inch stove pipe. I have a piece of expanded metal on top of pipe to rest pot on when heating. I stick the torch in a hole in bottom side of pipe.
That is my fancy set up. Your problem with range brass may be it was fired from a glock and has the infamous “glock Bulge". The newer pass thru dies will reduce bulge to make brass usable but that could be a dangerous way to go with full power loads.
Good luck
Bob D
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Bob, thanks for the input. For some reason that setup of yours makes me think of a space shuttle launch! What bullet do you use for your .357? The brass I tried at first in my 9 was stuff I have tons of, it was fired in a fully suppressed Uzi that belonged to Uncle Sam. I'm done with cast in my 9mm, too much time to make it work. The .45 is another matter.
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TT I have been playing with a Lee TL .358 158gr swc and Lee tumble lube right from mold without sizing. I had a little trouble with my alloy. I was using ww mixed with dental X-Ray films shields. I believe there was not enough lead in mix so I added solder. I changed to WW mixed with some 95/5 plumbers solder. Duane Mellenbuch (hope I spelled that right Duane) helped me out with a lot of good info on tumble lube bullets and alloys. I haven't had a chance to do any serious testing with the new alloy but I hope to get to it in the next few weeks.
I have been shooting TL ,356 125 truncated cone nose in my beretta 92, 4 grs of w231 and having some success. I need to tweak the powder a little. So much to do so little time.
I am currently waiting for a mold for .45 auto, TL .452 200 gr swc. Hopefully I will get it soon. I will keep you up to date on any progress.
Thanks Bob D
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I started handloading in 2004 with a Lee Loader in .38/.357 mag. The first thing I ditched was the priming gadget - I think I developed a flinch tapping the case down onto a primer - since they would go off from time to time.
I ended up getting the Lee press that you hold in your hands, it is essentially a single stage press with no mounting base. I love that thing. It opens up the whole world of “real” dies, and I load a variety of different calibers with it, not particularly fast but way faster than with a Lee loader. I do almost all my powder measuring with the Lee Dipper set, although I do have a scale and one of the micrometer-style measures. Dipping works well for me.
On the whole speed issue, I tend to shoot to empty the brass, so if I load slow and shoot slow I get more hobby for my money.
I like loading .45 Colt because everything is nice and fat and it feels like writing with the fat pencils you get in the first grade. Then I like .22 hornet and .32(ACP, S&W Long) because it is fun to fiddle around with little things sometimes. So far the only bullets I've cast have been .32 and .45, Lee dies of course, sticking with my general tight wad approach. I'm a big fan of Bullseye for the exact same reason. Cheap and simple.
I like the Tumble lube bullet idea. In the interest of really going further low tech, I keep thinking I should get myself a percussion revolver, a round ball mold and figure out how to make percussion caps out of something or another.
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Well, I guess it is the Forster Tap-0-Cap for me!
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I'll be expecting a report on that Tap o Cap. Did you get a percussion revolver?
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I just found the link today. I emailed it to my wife as a would-be christmas gift idea.
Don't have a revolver yet. Any suggestions?
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It has been a long time since I shot a repro of either the Remington or Colt percussion revolvers and have never owned one. It always seemed to me that the Remington was the stronger design, what with the top strap. The Remington front sight seemed to work better for me than that little brass cone on the Colt.
If I remember correctly, The Outlaw Josie Wales shot Remington pattern revolvers and seemed to have an easy time swapping empty cylinders for loaded ones while keeping his eyes on the bad guys. :fire
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Years ago I had a Colt repro, Italian '51 Navy if I remember right. It had a brass frame. It's been a while, but I think it was a .36. (Remember I have CRS). It was fun, that's all I remember. Now I have a brace of Ruger Old Armies, .44s. that will go in my coffin with me. I got them both way back, used, before they got so pricey. If I remember right(again, CRS), Ed Harris said the Ruger OA was the most accurate revolver he's ever shot. I know mine shoot better than I do, either with a round ball or conical. I only use black powder. So I guess it depends on what you want from a gun. They're all very fun to shoot and can be deadly as hell. There's really nothing else like shooting a percussion revolver. If I had the bucks I'd get a real Colt. Back in my mountain man days I took the Rugers in the backcountry for protection. When you cock the Ruger it sounds like a bank vault latch opening, very satisfying.
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I just ordered this from Cabela's:
Their italian brass-framed Confederate Navy 1851 in 44. I discovered the $119 price and bought it. Living in Michigan, I have to fax in a notorized paper saying that I've never been imprisoned for over four years, so that means I need to get to the bank before they will ship the gun. Am I going to be sorry for not getting a steel frame? I think right now $189 is their cheapest steel gun.
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Sorry? I doubt it. Thousands of brass frame guns were used in combat, they can't be too bad. I doubt you could shoot it loose unless you tried. Just stick to normal loads. 20 gr. FFF with a .451 round ball is Sam Fadala's idea of an optimum load. I looked at some of the reviews on Cabela's site, it sounds like some happy customers. Once you get the black powder bug you will want more guns. Maybe try to pick up a copy of some old black powder manuals by Fadala or Lyman. Lots of little tricks to these guns to enjoy them more. Have fun Bruce.
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Now, would it be a good idea for me to un-hijack this thread? It seems like I should move over to blackpowder. I asked about the tap-0-cap over there, and haven't got too much interest.
Wait until I ask about making black powder from scratch!
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