help with the BIG RUSSIAN -- 7.62x54R

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  • Last Post 27 December 2016
Vassal posted this 18 August 2009

Hey guys I need a bit of help. I am purchasing supplies to begin loading and casting for the big russian and am a bit confused. I have not loaded for rifle calibers yet so my understanding of some specifics is shaky. I am looking at RCBS dies and want to be able to both neck size and full length resize. I plan on loading some jacketed bullets and of course cast, so I need to be able to load .310 through about .316 in these necks. My present understanding dictates an RCBS FL set (2 die) and an additional neck size only die, along with a 32 ACP expander die. Along with checking my needs against the mentioned equipment, I have these questions: AM I gaining anything by purchasing RCBS as opposed to LEE;?; (especially the 32 expander die?) Do I need (or really benefit from) the Lee factory crimp die for this caliber? I have read many comments about a discrepency in chamber dimensions with both Lee and RCBS dies in 7.62x54R (leaving a ring of excess brass around the case head after full-length sizing) does anyone have informations about this? is it a problem? is there a way around it? (some have finessed the dies with some fine grit) Does the neck size only die remove the spent primer?

 This caliber is a bit tricky because those crazy Finns decided to tighten up the rifles they re-vamped,  i.e. some are .308 some are .311 some are,,uhh,,, bigger, so the dies may be set up for .308 which does me no good for trying to load .316 or even .311 bullets. or does it??

Any help would be greatly appreciated. the thought of spending $30 (or more) for dies that won't really work nausiates me. It could be worse; I could buy the dies I mentioned in this post (which would cost around $100!!!!) and still not be able to produce ammo. OH GOD!!!

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tturner53 posted this 19 August 2009

You could just get a Lee Loader for about $25 and be able to load your own, jacketed or cast. It's not fancy, but it gets the job done. It deprimes, neck sizes, and seats a new bullet and crimps it in place if you want to crimp. There's a powder scoop and load data included. Kind of a pain if you load a lot, but fine for a few boxes a week. Someplace to start anyway. Some people have loaded very accurate ammo with these simple tools.

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Ed Harris posted this 19 August 2009

I have several of these rifles in different flavors and have the RCBS die set. I replaced the expander button on the decapping stem of the FL resizer so that it decaps only. I then use a .32 ACP expander plug on a long die body to expand and lightly bell case mouths. I have a Lee Factory Crimp die which I use only for jacketed bullet hunting loads. I don't use it for cast, as I find it unnecessary.

I also have a Neil Jones neck-sizer die body in which I can swap sizing rings to adjust sizing as needed for different bullet diameters antypes of brass once cases have been fire-formed for a specific rifle.

Lacking specific cast bullet data for the 7.652x54R Russian you can use .303 British or .300 Savage data as a starting point. For jacketed loads you can use the starting .30-'06 data for the same weight bullet, using a jacketed bullet of the proper diameter for your barrel. In the tight bore Finns .308 bullets work fine. In the M39 Finn and USSR rifles the .311-.312 jacketed bullets intended for the 7.62x39 or .303 British work better.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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beemer posted this 19 August 2009

I have loaded for a Finn and a 91/30, there is a difference. Most die sets size the neck to use a .308 bullet, it's to small for loading a .314 or bigger cast bullet that I use in the 91/30. I have had a case deformed from loading a .312 jacketed bullet in the neck sized for a .308, a larger expander is needed.

I believe RCBS supplies expanders for .308 and .312 dia bullets. You might want to check with them before you order. I have the Lee and had to order an expander for the .312 bullet. A seperate expander would also work and is necessary for cast. The expander for the 32 pistol is to short, you need the long die body.

I didn't like working the brass from 308 to 312 for every loading so I reworked Lee collet neck sizer for a 303 to fit the Russian.

With so many varations the Russian rifles require a bit of fiddling around but that is part of the fun.And old Russian can shoot very well when you find the right combo.

beemer

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hunterspistol posted this 19 August 2009

:coffee  I see your concerns, if you start with a Lee setup, you'll have your money.  I have RCBS only because I bought a used press at a gun show. Here's the difference, the Rock Chucker is all solid cast iron, weighs around 35 lbs.  A Lee would be cast aluminum. This all depends on your resolve to keep handloading.  I've used the same RCBS press, scale, trickler and trimmer for almost 10 years now. I use a Lyman Bullet Press and lead pot but, have duplicates, I have 2 sets (although that isn't necessary either). 

     Eventually, you'll wear the Lee out but, that's going to be after loading some ammo.  My thought would be that the long 54R cartridge would take a bigger press but, I can't say that for sure.  If you buy a press, decide if you want a longer life cast iron or a cast aluminum press you might have to replace.  Even the prestigious Hornadys are cast aluminum, just better built.  Lyman has both, without the compound leverage found in an RCBS or Redding, you'll use more arm muscle.  Most of the smaller cheaper equipment is worth having just to gain experience, depending on if your needs are immediate rather than long term.  I spent an entire year budgeting in my reloading room, it's always going to be there.  Just consider what you really want to run and how far.  A single stage O press like the Lyman Crusher in cast aluminum loads any rifle round that isn't absolutely huge. After all this time, I still single stage. It's the best way to get good consistent ammo.

      Take a deep breath and shop some, think about what you want.  

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303PV posted this 20 August 2009

You can also use an Lyman M-die to size to the appropriate inside diameter. If you have lathe you can make the expander plugs yourself. The Lee universal case expander plugs are even easier to make because you don't have to cut the thread.

In the picture on the right the Lyman plugs, on the left Lee

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Vassal posted this 20 August 2009

WOW! You guys are great. I am so pleased and honered to have joined the CBA! 

I have purchased a Rock-Chucker to load with (as my pro1000 is pistol only) as well as the RCBS 2 die set (which did come with 2 expanders) along with some other goodies to take my loading to the next level (and my pocket book down a level--into the RED!)  I have done some searching and can not figure out what the “long die body” is. ?? is it RCBS, Redding??

Thanks again, Your help is priceless.  

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beemer posted this 20 August 2009

Lyman makes the M die for expanding and flairing case necks. The die body for a pistol round is short and of course long for the rifle. A die for a .32 acp will not work properly. Lyman makes a M die for the 7.62x54 but it is listed as a 30L , that might not help. The M die for a 7.65 Arg. Mauser and the 303 Brit is listed as the same part with a 31L expander, that would work better for the .311 & .312 bullets. RCBS makes an expander for rifle cases and state the dia. of the expander plug,you can get one die and order extra plugs.

It is sometimes hard to decide what you need because the descriptions are a little vague or you are uncertain about what you need. Some of us have been loading cast for years and had to learn what to buy the hard way.

beemer

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Vassal posted this 20 August 2009

I have found some info on the Lyman m die which is confusing. The LA sillhouette club site shows some dies and plugs that seem perfect, but I cant find a short or long die like shown only caliber specific (lacking of course 7.62x54R - who would reload for those things anyway?)

Wait a minute,,,                  ,,,,,,,,,,              ,,,,,,,,,           ,,,,,,,,,            ,,,,,,,,,

,,,,,,                  ,,,,,,,,,,

OK;    when you guys said “long die body” were you referring to a 30 cal lyman m-die? it looks like that may be the case,  or the die body - as the case may be, or maybe I am still confused. please excuse me guys I have some tail-chasing to do. 

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Vassal posted this 20 August 2009

Beemer, Duane, Mighty Ed, TT, 303PV, Jeff down under, HUntersPistol,, You are th man!,, Or the Men rather,

I have said it many times but I'll say it again,;, Thanks.

I really do appreciate your sharing of hard won knowledge about reloading these rounds. I feel a bit awkward about asking so many questions sometimes but , I got a late start in this game and   “THE LOAD” is a philosophy.:^:

 

Lokks like I need the Lyman M die 30 cal long with the 31r plug and the 32p plug.

now I find these items at Midway and place my order. 

I am awaiting the arrival of my 9mm/38special Devestator mold from them already!!!

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Vassal posted this 20 August 2009

Will I need to buy an additional neck size only die (for about as much as I paid for the set) or can I use the full length die adjusted differently? what are the pros and cons?

 

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beemer posted this 20 August 2009

You can partial size with a FL die by backing it off the shellholder silighly. Size just enough to let the case chamber freely. The only drawback is that if you have 2 rifles it will have adjusted again for each one.

If you neck size the cases will get tight after several shots, how many depends on how hot you load. I neck size and partial size when the cases get tight. I also assign a batch of cases to a rifle.

I would try what I had and see how it works and sort of grow with the process. Let us know how it works.

beemer

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hunterspistol posted this 20 August 2009

:coffee   For now, you'll be doing some fireforming, a neck size die comes along after you have a lot of once-fired brass(fireforms).  You'll need your full-length sizing die to get the brass to chamber easily when it's brand new.  A chamfer tool doesn't hurt either.

About the neck sizing die, my 22 Hornet Neck die contains a primer pin, so, yes, it will remove spent primers.  The die just doesn't fit tightly around the case, except at the neck. The rest is more-or-less a hollow sleeve. I like the RCBS Universal decapping die to do most of my primers.  The RCBS Ram Prime is great, you adjust it to seat primers to .004 below the case head, and it will do it with any ammo, any shellholder. Because it sits on top of the press, it works in any caliber.  It only took me a short time to learn to use and eliminated "feeling” for the primer to seat.       

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Vassal posted this 22 August 2009

UPDATE:

             I have gotten my equipment. rock chucker, lyman trimmer, Rcbs FL and Neck only and lee factory crimp. JAcketed sierra 178match and 150prohunter, cciBR and federal match primers and I've started with apound each of imr4350 and H4895. My '36 russian 91-30 (my 2nd 91-30) is here and it is nearly perfect. This was unissued, it had to beas  it's perfectly clean! I meet a local tommorow to inspect a “mint” finn M39. i'm sure it will be nice. If i get that one I am officially a MOSIN MAN! I.m deep in the red but a good healthy hobby is worth it, besides these tools last a long time. If I can become a proficient and knowledgable shooter I will be able to start weekend shooting courses with some of my students; I would love to be able to share with young ones. Guns may be exciting enough enough to keep them out of trouble! It is alot of work and research, but I.m getting there.

I will post updates here as I start shooting and transition (quickly I hope) to cast bullets. I hope to devote the nice guns to cast only. I'll keep working.

Good shooting for every-one!

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Vassal posted this 12 September 2009

Well i have gotten my first cast rifle bullets loaded up and ready to go! These are the C.E. Harris design 155-.312 from LEE. I dan't know about accuracy but I am not going for that yet. These will be used for my initial understanding of how these components work with each other - i.e. velocity, pressure, catastrophic failure, et cetera. The main concern at this point is fireforming cases. Will cast loads produce enough pressure to form from virgin or FL sized brass;? We shall see. I am considering starting a new thread to “blog” my rookie experiences for future rookies. I would use 6pt sika's 444 marlin thread as a model. Do you guys think thats a good idea or does it leave the purpose/focus of the forum behind? I definitely think it would be usefull for guys just starting out, either reloading or casting in general OR those new to the Big Russian. sorry about the pics my camera is pretty old (relatively speaking.)

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hunterspistol posted this 12 September 2009

:thumbsup:     Vassal, I think a thread on the Mosin Nagant would fit right in, at one time they were made by Winchester.  Good looking ammo you have there.  Cast bullet reloads have more than enough pressure to fireform cases.  When you fire some, compare them directly to the new-  they'll be puffed out more around the case and the shoulder will be sharper.  Lyman books recommend a 5% reduction in load to form cases with. 

      Main concern now, watch the barrel for leading.  Just go slow and think it all through. 

Ron

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Vassal posted this 13 September 2009

Yes,, Yes,;, Leading. I will definitely have to watch out. I don't have a very good lead supply and the best I can muster is WW (and I'm getting low on those!!) These bullets are wter dropped from the mold. They are DEFINITELY harder than air-cooled. when time for accuracy work comes in I will have to try and find an oven precise enough to oven treat for more uniform results,, OR find some LINO. I actually saw some for the first time the other day but they wouldn't sell it. it goes for close to $2 on ebay which seems pretty high. I'll have to keep looking and keep velocities low untill i find. The bullets in the pic are the LEE version of Mighty Ed's design. The mold leaves alot to be desired even for a LEE. I sent the first one back. haven't used the new one yet but it does have a strange wrinkle in the nose just like the last one. It seems kinda' like the rough and finish cut on the cavity didn't quite match up, but I don't really know. Oh well no big loss, thats what great about Lee molds. I have many that work fine for pistols.

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hunterspistol posted this 13 September 2009

      :coffee   I bought lino, and found out that the alloy ratio is not what you think!  30 pounds is a lot, it's some hard stuff.  To alloy wheelweight is about 1 ignot lino to 5 wheelweight.  Consider with the price that this maybe just an additive, casting straight lino for a rifle requires a velocity that's going to take you into lots of recoil. It's also something I have never done myself.  I just use linotype to harden some bullets. Mine is sitting around the casting pot with more in the reloading room. I don't use it that much since finding heat treat methods.

     The certified alloy is $4 a pound nowdays from Midway. If your ratio were 2 to 5, it's still just an additive. Not to worry.  If you buy your automobile tires at a discount, consider going to the shop that sells you wheelweight. “We take care of our own” goes a long way in this hobby!

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4570sharps posted this 02 October 2016

First thing I'd do is slug the barrel!

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Larry Gibson posted this 02 October 2016

Vassal

"I am looking at RCBS dies and want to be able to both neck size and full length resize. I plan on loading some jacketed bullets and of course cast, so I need to be able to load .310 through about .316 in these necks."   I've been loading jacketed (.308 - .312) and cast (.311 - .316) in the 7.62x54R for numerous MN rifles (currently have 4) and carbines since '68.  All have enough difference in chamber size that the use of a FL die leads to very short case life.  I began NSing and keeping cases rifle specific years ago and seldom lose a case these days.    I suggest a set of Lee dies.  The set will come with a FL die and a seater die along with a shell holder.  The FL die will allow FL sizing if and when necessary.  With cast bullet loads in my MNs I haven't yet had to FL size the rifle designated cases if they were first fired in the designated rifle.  My Lee seater allow the seating of .308 through .316 bullets (NOE 316299).    I then suggest a Redding Bushing die for the 284 Winchester.  The whole the neck goes through is a universal .431 in the Redding dies so the .284 die is just to fit the wider body dimensions of the 7.62x54R case.  Shorten the bushing die body to 2.958” which is easy on a lathe of can be done by hand on a good bench grinder if you are handy.  With bushings ranging from .332 to .335 in .001 increments I can tailor NSing to give .002 neck tension  depending on the neck thickness of the cases and size of the bullets.   These are the dies I use to load not only regular MN jacketed and cast loads with but also my match loads for my M39 for use in CBA Military rifle matches.   LMG    

Concealment is not cover.........

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gpidaho posted this 03 October 2016

LMG: Not to jump the thread but hey, it's seven years old. I'd like to say I'm glad your still posting with us here. You've been a BIG help to me reading your posts here and back at Boolits. Unlike your set of dies my lee Dead length seating die wouldn't accept a bullet sized .3155 in PPU brass. It was easy to lap out the constriction. As it turned out the next problem was that my Polish 39s chamber had a neck that was too tight and I had to neck turn the brass anyway. Well, at least the old rifle is teaching me to overcome problems. Gp

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Larry Gibson posted this 03 October 2016

Yup, it's an old thread which 4570sharps resurrected.  However, it's a common question with 7.62x54R MN shooters so I thought I'd just add my 2 cents worth.  Someone may find it useful, yah never know.    Yes, I still post here occasionally.    LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

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Frontsite posted this 27 December 2016

Here's what i did for my size neck die for the Russian. I purchased a Lee collet size die for the 308 Winchester, replaced the rod with the fattest rod i had (it came from a 30-06 collet) I drilled the center out of a “fender washer (.056 thick) to slip over the case and size away. The collet die is set just so it barely touches the shoulder. 

Follow my thinking here, measure the differance between the neck to shoulder distance of the 308 Winchester and the 762x54r and you will see how close they are. Since the washer (.056) now squeezes the fingers to the case and rod (mandrel) rather than the shell holder, it works for me and one of my buddies

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Eddie Southgate posted this 27 December 2016

:coffee<font=verdana>  I see your concerns, if you start with a Lee setup, you'll have your money.  I have RCBS only because I bought a used press at a gun show. Here's the difference, the Rock Chucker is all solid cast iron, weighs around 35 lbs.  A Lee would be cast aluminum. This all depends on your resolve to keep handloading.  I've used the same RCBS press, scale, trickler and trimmer for almost 10 years now. I use a Lyman Bullet Press and lead pot but, have duplicates, I have 2 sets (although that isn't necessary either).  <font=Verdana>     Eventually, you'll wear the Lee out but, that's going to be after loading some ammo.  My thought would be that the long 54R cartridge would take a bigger press but, I can't say that for sure.  If you buy a press, decide if you want a longer life cast iron or a cast aluminum press you might have to replace.  Even the prestigious Hornadys are cast aluminum, just better built.  Lyman has both, without the compound leverage found in an RCBS or Redding, you'll use more arm muscle.  Most of the smaller cheaper equipment is worth having just to gain experience, depending on if your needs are immediate rather than long term.  I spent an entire year budgeting in my reloading room, it's always going to be there.  Just consider what you really want to run and how far.  A single stage O press like the Lyman Crusher in cast aluminum loads any rifle round that isn't absolutely huge. After all this time, I still single stage. It's the best way to get good consistent ammo. <font=Verdana>      Take a deep breath and shop some, think about what you want.  
The Lee Classic Turret press is cast iron and you will not likely wear it out + you can remove the rod and use it as a single stage if you choose . The Hornady press that I have ( single stage ) is cast iron and is at least as good as the Lyman and RCBS presses .
Eddie

Grumpy Old Man With A Gun......Do Not Touch .

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Eddie Southgate posted this 27 December 2016

UPDATE:              I have gotten my equipment. rock chucker, lyman trimmer, Rcbs FL and Neck only and lee factory crimp. JAcketed sierra 178match and 150prohunter, cciBR and federal match primers and I've started with apound each of imr4350 and H4895. My '36 russian 91-30 (my 2nd 91-30) is here and it is nearly perfect. This was unissued, it had to beas  it's perfectly clean! I meet a local tommorow to inspect a “mint” finn M39. i'm sure it will be nice. If i get that one I am officially a MOSIN MAN! I.m deep in the red but a good healthy hobby is worth it, besides these tools last a long time. If I can become a proficient and knowledgable shooter I will be able to start weekend shooting courses with some of my students; I would love to be able to share with young ones. Guns may be exciting enough enough to keep them out of trouble! It is alot of work and research, but I.m getting there. I will post updates here as I start shooting and transition (quickly I hope) to cast bullets. I hope to devote the nice guns to cast only. I'll keep working. Good shooting for every-one!
 The Finn is what you want . It is vastly superior to the Russian rifles . You have a rear sight that has good elevation adjustment and a front sight that is adjustable for windage not to mention an improved lock works and trigger . With the right load they will shoot to POA instead of being 6 to 8 inches high like every Russian I own does . All my Finns like the 200 gr Sierra MatchKing and a stiff load of VV N550. With this they shoot to point of aim at 100 yds and you will be surprised at the size of the groups they are capable of with the right load.
Eddie 

Grumpy Old Man With A Gun......Do Not Touch .

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SierraHunter posted this 27 December 2016

:coffee<font=verdana>  I see your concerns, if you start with a Lee setup, you'll have your money.  I have RCBS only because I bought a used press at a gun show. Here's the difference, the Rock Chucker is all solid cast iron, weighs around 35 lbs.  A Lee would be cast aluminum. This all depends on your resolve to keep handloading.  I've used the same RCBS press, scale, trickler and trimmer for almost 10 years now. I use a Lyman Bullet Press and lead pot but, have duplicates, I have 2 sets (although that isn't necessary either).  <font=Verdana>     Eventually, you'll wear the Lee out but, that's going to be after loading some ammo.  My thought would be that the long 54R cartridge would take a bigger press but, I can't say that for sure.  If you buy a press, decide if you want a longer life cast iron or a cast aluminum press you might have to replace.  Even the prestigious Hornadys are cast aluminum, just better built.  Lyman has both, without the compound leverage found in an RCBS or Redding, you'll use more arm muscle.  Most of the smaller cheaper equipment is worth having just to gain experience, depending on if your needs are immediate rather than long term.  I spent an entire year budgeting in my reloading room, it's always going to be there.  Just consider what you really want to run and how far.  A single stage O press like the Lyman Crusher in cast aluminum loads any rifle round that isn't absolutely huge. After all this time, I still single stage. It's the best way to get good consistent ammo. <font=Verdana>      Take a deep breath and shop some, think about what you want.  
The Lee Classic Turret press is cast iron and you will not likely wear it out + you can remove the rod and use it as a single stage if you choosez . The Hornady press that I have ( single stage ) is cast iron and is at least as good as the Lyman and RCBS presses .
Eddie

I use mine as a single stage. Don't even know where the indexing parts are anymore . I am surprised I have no broke it yet. I've used to for case forming, and have been very hard on it. Great press.

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Larry Gibson posted this 27 December 2016

Seems to be a few posts, old and new missing from this thread?

 

LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

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