Hocus pocus....

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Last Post 03 March 2009

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ssgt posted this 06 December 2006

I would like to hear some opinions on bullet lube.

Do yall really think its that mysterious, eye of newt, bat wings and snake blood? Ive used alot of different lubes and my experience is that its not that complicated. My rifle loads are almost always full speed loads, actual rifle powders. The fastest thing I use in rifle loads is 2400. And handgun loads, Ive even used vaseline on some of those just for the heck of it. Whats yalls thoughts on this? Am I going up against a “sacred cow” here or am I too simple minded? This isnt to say that anything will do, even I have certain requirements lube must meet, i just think its overly complicated when it doesnt need to be.

Ed Harrison

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CB posted this 07 December 2006

This is a pretty good question and to tell you the truth I don't know the answer. I always just assumed the people that put out the lubes knew what they were doing and didn't think about it one way or the other. One thing I do believe that lube is just what the name implies and nothing else. There's opinions that the lube is a gas seal but I don't understand how when a lot of the same people that think this also believe that leading is caused by hot powder gasses flowing past the bullet melting and depositing lead ahead of it as it travels down the barrel. If the hot gasses would melt lead it would for darn sure melt lube.

When it comes to lube I think Veral Smith hit the nail right on the head when he wrote in his book that leading is caused by bullet obturation overcoming the lubes ability to do its job. In other words match the BNH strength to the load, fit the bullet to the bore, and use a lube with the properties and in the amount to get the job done.

Maybe with the right load encompassing the right BNH strength, pressure, and a host of other variables, you might be absolutely correct that anything with lubrication properties would work but since I don't know and always just went with the flow I can't say.

Pat

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CB posted this 07 December 2006

Now this might not be 100% accurate, but it is as I understand it. First you need to have a properly fitted bullet, one that fills the lands completely. That is the reason some people shoot a .311 bullet out of a .309 land diameter gun. The lube is there to assist in lubricating the bullet as it travels down the barrel as it's first job. The second job is to put a coating on the inside of the barrel so if in the event that some hot gas leaks past the gas check and melts some of the lead, that it will not adhere to the barrel. There is a difference between shaving lead off of the bullet and leading. Leading is the condition that occurs when the lead bullet acutally vaporizes and aheres to the barel. Shaving is what occurs when you push an oversized bullet into a bore that is smaller than the land diameter. Shaving will present itself as small thin flakes of lead on the cleaning patch. Leading will present itself as a grey smudge or possibly a larger flake of lead on the cleaning patch. Many think that using a synthetic lube is better because it is not prone to burn as easily as natural components found in other lubes. Many also think that a bullet should retain the lube down to the target. Some think that the lube should 'spin off' the bullet upon muzzle exit. Again bullet strength is critical when choosing a load. It your bullet strength is lower than the appropriate powder charge, then your chances of hot gas leaking past the GC is very high and leading may occur. You should always consider bullet strength first when selecting a load, just because you can push it 2500 fps doesn't mean that is where it will be most accurate. Lube choice is a matter of personal preference. Read some of the posts under what bullet lube to you like best in this forum.. You will see people shooting the old NRA foemula 2400 fps and better. Just my .02 worth.

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CB posted this 07 December 2006

ssgt,

I think the cast bullet lube manufacturers nudge that 'hocu pocus...' thing along for a selling point! You may be right about using about anything for lube, but different features in some lubes have a purpose to certain applications.

As Jeff commented about the lube's residual affect left in the bore, probably has more of an impact, more than anything. The components of black-powder lube's, residue helps keep the carbon fouling soft for continual shooting up to a point.

Lubes suggested for pistols are usually intended for a slower velocity and pressure, and in most cases, ease of application. In today's high tech world of pistols or handguns, the term has surpassed its original basic definition to now include all types and variations from revolvers in target grade configuration, up to high velocity magnums, to single-shot handguns practically shooting high-power rifle velocities and performances. So speaking about handgun lubes now is a loose term at best, prompting a consideration for each individual's application. Notably, your Vaseline application, or even spit would probably work for gallery loads in a revolver.

I'm not an design engineer, but I don't believe cast bullet lube actually lubes the bullet. If that were the case, the lube ring would be at the front of the bullet, not at the back. So the ingredients in cb lube does not pertain to how slick the bullet is sliding down the bore; but to the lube surviving the high temperature/pressure environment of each shot.

That remaining residual affect in the bore is most evident with the shooters using NRA Formula Alox 50/50. The many that I know who use it most commonly never clean their bore, or their accuracy will fall off considerably, until they have shot at least a handful of fouling shots down the bore again. The lube I happen to use does not do that, and I keep a clean bore at my bench, because a clean bore shoots the most accurate loads for me.

Wingnut

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CB posted this 07 December 2006

One thing I failed to say in my last post. Just because that is how I understand it means that is what I have been told by experts in the field. I do agree with Dan that if the lube where to provide lubrication for the bullet, there would be a lube groove at the front end of the bullet. Some bullets do have this, Lyman for instance.

However lead itself under pressure is a lubricant. .22's dont have lube on them.

The lube I use is not a pure synthetic, it has a single natural ingredient, carnuba wax in addition to the synthetic ingredients. I think the carnuba wax helps keep the amount of residue from adhering to the barrel. I too like to keep my barrel clean at the bench, I get my best accuracy when it is clean to lightly fouled.

Proper bullet fit is the most important aspect, then the lube choice comes into play. That is the mystic of this sport and also the challenge, figgering out what is gonna work for you.

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ssgt posted this 07 December 2006

I certainly feel that a good lube is better than a bad or no lube, but after all these years I still have a hard time defining just exactly what constitutes a “good” lube and what level of importance to place on it. Is it as ,less than or more important than ,say, bullet fit or barrel condition?

We all, myself included, have certain requirements for lube....mine?

1- Elasticity- I guess you could call it stickiness but I thing its more than that.

2- Heat Resistance- Im not sure what the overall importance of this is but its my OPINION that this may aid in its ability to withstand pressure, certainly cant hurt!

3- Pressure Resistance- This is a biggy to me. I think its also something that is most affected by things like bullet fit, barrel condition etc.

How does all this stuff intertwine or does it? Level of importance? Hmmm....:?

Ed Harrison

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CB posted this 07 December 2006

I believe it is all intertwined.

A lube that doesn't stick to the bullet won't do you much good if it isn't there when you need it most. But I don't want it sticking to my fingers when I bump it if need be.

I want the lube to be able to melt enough to coat the inside of the barrel. I think that is extremely important!

It HAS to withstand pressure. I am not exactly sure how much pressure is on the bullet in front of the gas check, but I am sure there is at least 20k psi behind it.

Many of the lube formula's (I make my own) I use are fully synthetic. The components have the attributes I want in a lube. High melting point (above 140 degrees F) High pressure resistance (because I use a base element that is a high pressure lube) Sticky, Soft enough to be used without heating the lubersizer and spin off the bullet on muzzle exit, firm enough not to come off on your hands, doesn't require chilling so the lube doesn't come off on hot days, doesn't cause build up after a few shots and is easy to clean out of the barrel. Color and smell mean nothing to me, I don't care if it smells good or is pink or green or blue.

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CB posted this 07 December 2006

I've read everything about cast bullets I could get my hands on during the years and still think Veral Smith has it right when it comes to the purpose of lube. The way he describes it is that you have to think of a bullet as a stack of boxes with the maximum pressure being delivered to the bottom box, or the base of the bullet, with pressures decreasing as you go towards the top of the stack, or the front of the bullet. This explains why the lube grooves aren't on the nose of the bullet. I also think he has it right that leading is caused by the bullet obturating so that the pressure against the bore overcomes the lubes ability to to do it's job. This might not be the best explanation of what I'm trying to get across and I'd heartily suggest getting a copy of Veral's book to let him explain it but I think you get the idea and I still think lube does exactly what the name says, lubricates.

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CB posted this 08 December 2006

ssgt,

I think you're beginning to see those mystic attributes of cast bullet lubes and why the there is so much Hocus pocus..... to solve the problems of cast bullet lubes.

The surest solution to the problem would be to eliminate the lube. It has been tried before, and I assure you, it will be tried again (wish me luck. Jeff).

Wingnut

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ssgt posted this 08 December 2006

Dan Willems wrote: ssgt,

I think you're beginning to see those mystic attributes of cast bullet lubes and why the there is so much Hocus pocus..... to solve the problems of cast bullet lubes.

The surest solution to the problem would be to eliminate the lube. It has been tried before, and I assure you, it will be tried again (wish me luck. Jeff).

Wingnut

Now this should be very interesting! Keep us informed.

Ed Harrison

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CB posted this 08 December 2006

Actually we have been doing some research on that as well. There is a pistol bullet company that puts a coating on the outside of the lead bullet that appear to be impervious to heat and is slicker than greased lighting.

One of the fellows I shoot with (BTW a past national champion) who doesn't want his name to be known is working on this problem now. There are several companies that make such coatings and he is working on getting the coating thickness and bullet diameter right. Maybe one day...

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CB posted this 08 December 2006

Jeff,

What's the difference between bullet lube and bullet coating?

I was talking about dropping the use of lube and shooting dry lead-alloy cast bullets. Sleeved bearings are an alloy of copper or bronze, or a Babbitt metal of some type. The lead-alloy is actually a bearing material, so it lubes itself while traveling down the the steel barrel, acting just as a sleeve bearing; alloy against steel!

The trick is, getting it to seal good before the hot blast of gunpowder combustion eats away at the lead. That is when pat i.'s reply about Veral Smith's book describing obturation takes affect. There are different grades of Babbitt material for different applications of bearings, as I understand it, in relation to speed. So finding the right alloy may make the difference.

Heck, I may end up shooting cast tin bullets! Hey, how much is silver a pound?

Wingnut

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CB posted this 08 December 2006

Check out this link, it will give ya an indication of what I am talking about.

http://www.precisionbullets.com/

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CB posted this 09 December 2006

(The trick is, getting it to seal good before the hot blast of gunpowder combustion eats away at the lead)

I'm not convinced hot powder gas has anything to do with leading and I'll give my reasons why. Take bullets cast of WW and divide them into two batches, one heat treated to 25 BNH and the other as cast at 11 BNH. For the sake of argument get them up to 2,200 fps in a load that develops 30,000 psi. I think you'd find the HT bullet would make it through with no problem but the as cast bullet would cause mucho problems. Same alloy, same bullet, same lube, same load, only difference would be the bullet's compressive strength with the harder bullet having the ability of letting the lube do it's job by placing a film of slippery stuff between the bullet and the bore.

Another thing that puzzles me is if it's true that hot powder gas melts the base of the bullet then why is it that lino, which has a 50 degree lower melt temp than WW and 160 degree lower melt temp than pure lead, is able to stand such higher velocities (which I assume also means more heat) than either of the other two mentioned. Wouldn't it stand to reason that Lino would be the first one to start melting and cause the most leading problems?

I've heard of people claim to have had unlubed bullets shoot accurately but have never witnessed it, not saying it hasn't been done. The problem I see with it is that if you use the example of a bearing to describe the bullet to bore relationship it seems that a bearing designed to withstand the forces and tolerances comparable to a bullet riding down a barrel would be designed with lubrication as one of it characteristics not only to act as a lubricant but as a coolant. Maybe with certain loads and alloys you could use Ponds Hand Cream or KY Jelly but I still think a lube is going to be a necessary part of the equation.

This is just rambling on my part and if someone can explain why I'm all wet I'll gladly change my mind but I do think there's a lot of hocus pocus when it comes to the reason for lube and what it supposedly does. Not that it really matters as long as it works and it gives people something to talk about.

Pat

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CB posted this 10 December 2006

pat i. wrote: ...I've heard of people claim to have had unlubed bullets shoot accurately but have never witnessed it, not saying it hasn't been done. ... Pat

I can shoot bullets with no lube with no leading, on demand. I fill the case with Cream Of Wheat over the powder, seat he bullet, and have at it.

Norm Johnson writes in the book that he doesn't use lube any more on revolver bullets.

I don't know what lube does, but it seems that it is NOT keeping the lead and barrel interface from galling or whatever leading is. See Ken Mollohan on leading also.

My opinion, based on experience and mostly the equipment lists in TFS and the ASSRA Journal, is that either “if it's greasy it works” or there are a wide variety of lubes that work. My vote is for the former.

joe brennan

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CB posted this 11 December 2006

I guess one of the great things about cast bullet shooting is the differing opinions. I'm still of the school that if it looks like a lube, acts like a lube, and smells like a lube, it's purpose must be to lube.

Maybe some people can get away with not using lube, I don't know, but it seems to me that if in the 100 or so years of cast bullets if it was something that had long term merit someone would have figured it out by now. There were a lot of real smart people playing around, unfortunately I'm not one of them.

Pat

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ssgt posted this 11 December 2006

Has anyone considered the effect of hydraulics on the bullet and lube? There has to be some.....the lube, under that kind of pressure, would if not totally liqueify certainly jell somewhat. Wouldnt this have an effect similar to the oil between a crankshaft and a mainbearing?

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CB posted this 11 December 2006

I hate to sound like a Veral Smith groupie but as far as I'm concerned he has the most logical explanation about the purpose of lube. He also says in his book that hydraulics play a major role in getting the lube out of the groove and between the bullet and the bore.

I use the KISS philosophy when shooting cast because it's a pretty straight forward endeavour when you think about it. Fit a bullet made for the task, use a good lube, find a load that shoots, and go at it. If something sounds logical to me I'll adopt the idea and never look back, if it sounds like BS or a lot of mumbo jumbo I'll take a pass. Might not always get the right answer this way but it sure does uncomplicate things.

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454PB posted this 19 January 2007

I'm one who has tried a lot of “hocus-pocus” home made lubes, with everything from molybdenum, STP, and mink oil mixed with varying proportions of beeswax, Hoppes #9, and parafin. Suprisingly, none where total failures, although some certainly worked better than others. I've also use the Lee Liquid Alox with success, which indicates to me that the lube isn't only providing a “seal", but....well....lubrication!

If you can use vaseline and it works, I say go for it!

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Daryl S posted this 20 January 2007

I'm with 454PB - some lubes work in rifles, while some lubes don't. This is mostly nociable in the smaller bored rifles & especially with black powder loads in the big ones. : In the .44 mag, shooting straight WW bullets, oversize, every lube I've tried from the alox/beeswax blends to Lee liquid alox to BP lube to Lyman Moly and their BP lube has shot without any leading using full power loads. My revolver bullets are sized .430", but due to the 4” barrel, rarely beat 1,200fps except in one load of H110. They weight 275gr. in SWC, plain base. : In the big big bore rifles, Paul Mathews lube works not only with black powder, but with smokeless as well. Along with that, SPG has provided the same 'protection' in a comercial lube. Lately, I've been using Lyman Moly lube, messey by hand, less so in a lube-sizer, but a good lube so far in every rifle or handgun I've used it in - no leading to just over 2,000fps and really good accuracy all wth WW metal as cast. Anytime you can hold sub 1” with 505gr. bullets in a .458, it's a well balanced, accurate load. Those cast bullets and Lyman Moly lube are shooting to the same accuracy as jacketed bullets and probably on average, are a 1/10” or so more accurate.