30-06 Load

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  • Last Post 27 March 2011
Gene posted this 04 September 2009

BruceV and all:

I went to the range Wed. and shot 30 rds. at 50 yds of BruceV's favorite load, Hunters 165 FPBB over 8.0 grns Unique in my Ole Stevens 30-06.

The bullets were seated to 3.02 COL which puts the bullet base slightly below the case neck......

The first 5 rd group was at 1” with 4 clustered at 5/8” (this was the best group).  None of the bullets are apparently stabiizing??  All of the flyers went in at a different angle from the others ??  The worst group was 2 1/4", but I think the shooter had more to do with that than the gun and load !!

Unique is clean and there was no apparent leading.

I need to get my Crony working as I believe these are going  from 1000 to 1200 FPS.

My next load will have some bullets sized at .309

Gene Perryman

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Don Fischer posted this 19 October 2009

I'm using a 30-06 myself. 03 Springfield sporterized. Using a Lee 180gr RN bullet with GC and sized to .309".

I tried Red Dot with my first loads and it shot pretty good. 13grs gave me a nice round .450” 3 shot group at 50 yds. But I thought I might be better off with a slower powder so I switched to IMR 3031 and 28.0 grs gave me a .485” nice round 3 shot group. Then I tried IMR 4064 and again at 50 yds I got a 7/8” group with three shots into darn near the same hole. I took that 4064 load out today and fired it at 100yds. Five shot's into 1 3/8” with nice round group. Shot two and four in darn near the same hole and shot three and five touching, overlaping about a quarter bullet dia.

Haven't re-tried my Red Dot load yet. No recoil to it at all so thinking about it to start my grand daughter shooting centerfire. Of course the 30.0gr load of 4064 didn't have much in the way of recoil.

One thing I did do today was fire off a round I messed up loading. I tamp down a quarter sheet of toilet paper on the powder to keep the powder up to the flash hole. Well I forgot the TP on one round again. When I've done that befor I pulled the bullet, the gas check stays in the neck and I have to fire it out. This time I took it with me and fired it when I got done. Held it upright to get the powder to the back of the case then lower it to fire, letting the powder fall as it may. That shot came up up 1 1/2” right and 1 1/2” low. Don't know for sure it was the lack of wad but suspect it might be as the spark could have jumped the powder and burned front to back, don't really know.

Getting no leading and wondering how far I can go befor I see it or the bullet get's driven to fast to hold the groves. I would guess that at some point leading would start and the bullet would start slipping in the groves.

Bullet's are 180gr RN from a Lee mold, tumble lubed with a gas check and sized to .309". Reading elsewhere on here someone suggested carnuba wax for a lube. Wonder if wax would be better than alox? I've also noticed that it only takes a few patches with Hoppe's and the bore is clean. Befor starting the cast bullet's I super cleaned the bore and got out all the copper. Then dried it and ran a Hoppe's patch thru. Now I leave it damp with Hoppe's when I'm done.

This cast bullet stuff is the most fun I've had in a long time!

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Gene posted this 19 October 2009

Don,

Are your bullets stablizing? And what diameter do your Lee bullets,drop out  (and also what's your nose dia.)??

Thanks,

Gene

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corerf posted this 20 October 2009

Fat bullets will hold the grooves better than skiny, at any velocity.

My two cents (or less). I shoot slow powders as opposed to most CBA members. I like flat trajectories and velocity. I have been shooting several (various) 150-210 gr RNGC bullets from lee and lyman. All have been sized to 311, not 309. 309 shot poorly! Their too small. I have also empirically discovered what most others did a long time ago. Bigger is better, usually. I have shot Leee TL and used only alox for both LV and HV bullets. I like White Label Lube Carnuba red 2700+. I use it exclusively now, for every caliber, speed and service.

My 30-06 is shooting 27 grains of 4895 (either H or IMR). My kids 7 and 10 have both shot it, they enjoyed it and had no problems with recoil. I get consistent 5 shot groups at 50 yds in 3/4 inch or less (scoped). This is with FL sized odd length machine charged, generic LR primers. The bullet is seated a bit long so it does engage the rifling. I believe that I can extend such accuracy out to 100 yds on the next trip with some critical reloading practices like hand charged powder, neck sizing, outside neck turing, primer pocket prep, etc. I have not found generic loading process group sizes to not be at least cut in half by careful loading processes. I am not fond of the red dot, 2400, 4227, unique loads. I will penny pinch only to a point, then I splurge. No offense to those who use and enjoy the fast powders. It seems that those who use the fast loads always fight some inconsistency or caveat that goes along with use. But I think that makes part of the joy of using it. the struggle to get little powder to shoot like a case full.

Try the Matterns deer load of 27 grains 4895 with any weight (150-210) 311 sized bullet. I think you'll be pleasantly suprised at the accuracy and velocity you can have with it. It also leaves a several grain window to go up and down with. I bet you'll get 2200 fps easy with it. Just refer to Ed Harris's white papers on “the loads". 27 grains is alot of powder but it's not 52 or 60 like with a full loaded '06 and a jacketed bullet.

Also, i have a pitted bore. Not a lick of leading in 40 round or more sessions. Matter of fact, I have never leaded the barrel and between groups, i don't dare clean the barrel. It's attained what CE Harris calls the rimfire condition.

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99 Strajght posted this 20 October 2009

I agree with Corerf. In my ruger #1, 28 gr. 4895 and either Lee 200 gr. or Lyman 210 gr. will shoot under 1 inch at 100 yards and kill deer. It works as good as any jacketed bullet. I don't size either one. They both measure .311 and I lub them with Lee Alox.

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Don Fischer posted this 20 October 2009

I haven't measured one dropping out but they might be a bit large. The sizing die is .309 and the bullet's measure .309 with obvious sizing on the shank. I assume they are stabilizing as I haven't got the first keyhole but some group's do scatter a bit. Started weighting the bullet's and the group's pulled in. Weighing them to +/- 1/10th. As they drop they are 178grs after lube and gas checks 183grs. I'd try them without sizing but have no idea how to get the gas checks crimped on them. Don't know the radius of the nose but suspect it's one diameter, very round. If anyone has a way to measure it, I will.

As I said I tried Red Dot but thinking about it I did go to slower powder, seem's the pressure curve would be better. But the Red Dot shot well so hard to argue against it. going to try to get out and cronograph the 4064 loads today, guessing somewhere around 1500-1600fps. The rifle has the issue Springfield barrel on it, four grouve and there's oitting in the barrel. I though about a re-bore to 338/06 last year but couldn't bring my self to do it, to nice a rifle as is and worth a bunch of money.

 

EDIT: How do you guy's put on the gas checks if you don't size or where do you get the .311 sizer? I have a .311 sizer die for my 32 auto but I'm not so sure these bullet's would go in. Your not doing it without gas checks are you?

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Gene posted this 21 October 2009

Don,

Lee makes a .311 resizing die which is easy to use and cheap.

My .311 bullets are not stablizing.  When I look at my targets I can see that the bullets entered the target at a slight angle.  I've never had any to keyhole........The groups are OK, but nothing to write home about !!!  My rifle has a large bore and a short throat lead, so I have to bury the bullets in the case to get them to chamber.  I believe that is affecting the accuracy, but I'm seating the bullets longer than what Lyman recommends in their “Cast Bullet Handbook".  My goal is to shoot non-GC bullets accurately..........

Gene

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Don Fischer posted this 21 October 2009

Gene,

I real new to cast rifle shooting but with jacketed bullet's I try to stay as clost to the lands as I can and adjust in and out from there to tweek the load. The measurement given for jacketed bullet's is a pretty standard measurement and I uaually ignore it.

To find my starting place, I slip a cleaning rod with the end plugged down the barrel to the bolt face and make the rod at the muzzle. Then I remove the bolt and drop a bullet in the chamber and hold it there with a pencil and use the rod to the bullet tip. Mark again and measure between the lines. Hornady makes a better tool to do it with that measure's from the cartridge base to the ogive, which is a better measurement. I've been doing it my way so long I just keep doing it.

Only problem you might run into is if your chamber is longer than your magazine well. Them it dictates the length of the cartridge.

Now I don't know wht this would not work with cast bullet's, I am doing it now. Maybe someone has an explanation why we shouldn't?

EDIT:

If the bullet's aren't stabilizing I'm at a loss. Sounds like from the discription of the bullet hole they aren't. I again relate to jacketed bullet's. Stabilizing them is done with turn per inch twist and velovity. Faster twist is needed for heavier bullet's but can be overcome with velocity, that is hard to do. I was talking with a vewry knowledgeable young guy some time back about long range shooting. He told me that one of the secret's is you had to use a cartridge and bullet that would keep the bullet supersonic, above 900fps. Maybe you are droping below that at 100yds. I don't really know but it's a thought.

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99 Strajght posted this 21 October 2009

Gene

The only way I got bullets to shoot without GC in my 30-06 was to make them soft and shoot them under 1000 fps. About 8 gr. Red Dot. Put on a GC and about everything works fine. I don't know why.

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Gene posted this 21 October 2009

Don and 99 Straight,

There's another thread concerning shooting plainbase unlubed bullets at velocities greater than 1000 FPS.  IMHO a bullet that is 1 to 2 thousandths over bore should shoot OK even w/o a GC or lube.  I'm at the point of frustration on this so I'm willing to try it !!!!!  I believe lubes original purpose was to keep the unburned black powder in the barrel soft so you could shoot more than once w/o cleaning.......

I've been reloading lead bullets for 40 yrs, but last week was the first time I've cast my own bullets.  The casting is alot easier than the lubing and resizing !!!!  I wouldn't even consider casting but the cost of the bullets is unreal now....  Also, the govt. is going to start taxing all guns and ammo components out of existence !!!  To further compound the problem 50 % of the wheelweights are zinc and the tire shops won't give'em away anymore ???   Melted WW's are hard !!!

Thanks,

Gene

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Don Fischer posted this 21 October 2009

I just smeltered down most of my WW this afternoon. With what I already had in ingets Now I have about 300# plus a bunch of sheet led and 60/40 wiping solder. Ought to last me a long time. Yea, ought to do it. That would be over 11,500 bullet's. Unless I do get a 6.5 mold!

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corerf posted this 21 October 2009

No sure who PM'd me but the board shuts down on all my PC's and Mac's if I try to respond to ANY PM's, just started last night. Anyway to answer the question of how to size a Lee 309 bullet to 311, you dont. You just leave it unsized and lube it. If your using the lee pushthru sizers, then you need a 311 or 312 push thru die. But even then your just going to use LLA to lube so theres no point in pushing thru other than gas check install. If your stuck right now using a push thru, funds or whatever, then your kinda stuck with pistol powder loads at the 1400-1500 fps range. They are pickey like that. Theres a science to that, CE Harris being the founder of the science, LOL.

Is there any leading occurring. If there is then you barrel is messed up with old copper fouling. At 1000 fps, LLA, sized to ABOVE .309 (thats a must), you shold be able to eat off the bore after 20 shots of Plain based bullets. It all about the diameter. If you are still thinking a 223 or 5.56 mil round needs a .224 bullet, your thinking wrong. 225+. A 357 mag, not 357, not 358, mayber 359, better 360! Thats the basic RULE one can't avoid. That bullet has to FIT and a 309 doesn't fit unless your bore is .3065/.307. It wont be that tight. It'll be .308+ due to your previous shooting and normal barrel specs. .002/.003 over bore, thats the rule. Sizers on caliber diameters are your worst enemy. Size to 310, better 311. Or as cast, just double LLA them and roll them.

If your mold is undersized, send it back, or lap it with JB bore paste. Search on how to lap a mold, especially an Aluminum one, up to .001 or more larger using your old bullets. It works and makes a huge diff. Lee's spec is -0.00/+ upwards of .003 but they never are. He builds molds right at .3095, maybe 310. Other mfgrs do the same thing, except Veral Smith and Saeco, other custom mfgrs as well.

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JSH posted this 27 March 2011

As mentioned above you really need to slug the throat and muzzle and then go from there as far as size. Only rifle I have that will shoot a .309 bullet is a K31, bore and throat make me. Why seat the bullet so deep unless your throat makes you? I suggest once you get the slugging done, then make up a dummy round to “feel” for engaugement. To get the best “feel” the firing pin spring assembly ought to be removed from the bolt, but, not necessary a lot of the time. Another way is to just size enough of the neckmaybe 1/8” and then start a bullet, stick it in the chamber and push the bolt closed. turn the bolt up and down a few times, then extract. should give you a good idea of max OAL. Also will show you if the riflinf is engaugeing. jeff

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LWesthoff posted this 27 March 2011

One of the easiest ways to find max. OAL for a given bullet (assuming a bolt action and single loading) uses a sized bullet, a cleaning rod, and a couple pieces of tape. Drop the sized bullet in the chamber and push it into the rifling as far as it will go, using a pencil or dowel or?, run your cleaning rod in from the muzzle “til it encounters the bullet nose,  wrap a piece of tape around it so you can mark it at the muzzle. Remove the bullet, insert and close the bolt, run the rod in to the bolt face, and make another mark. Distance between marks is maximum OAL. You don't need to disassemble the bolt for this one.

Wes

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