ball ammo equivalent project

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  • Last Post 29 September 2009
tturner53 posted this 08 September 2009

This is an extension of “10% tin” and “Alloy hardness upper limit". both posts basically about the same thing. I decided to combine the threads under a title that is more accurate. My real goal is to produce cast bullet loads that are as close ballistically to ball ammo as possible. I have a bunch of milsurps and would like to use the issue sights as is, IF that's possible. I'm not optimistic, but I'm going to give it a good try. The way I see it the key is a bullet similar to a FMJ (almost all spire points) and velocity near military specs. Luckily ball ammo has a pretty low accuracy standard and 3” groups at 100 would be fine for me. Hopefully the first batch will launch tomorrow, .223 and 30-06. I'm throwing in my Hornet although there's no ball ammo load for that that I know of. Without going on about it too much, an example is the .223 loaded with Ideal #224450 over 20 gr.H335 and also 20gr. AA2015. The bullets are 'hard as hell' bhn lubed with Lyman moly and a coat of LLA. If anybody's interested I'll report back after the test.:taz:  tt        EDIT: I'm open to suggestions, many of you helped me figure out the alloy part, any suggestions for powder, primer? Besides the spire points I'm using Saeco #315 in the 30-06, like a backup plan. It should go 2600 fps with no problem, right?

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JeffinNZ posted this 08 September 2009

I am shooting cast duplicate Mk VI and Mk VII .303 loads for service rifle. Mk VI is 220gr at 2000fps and Mk VII is 177gr at 2400fps. No real secrets. Slow powder, hard(ish) alloy and good fitting bullets. I have no problems getting 2700fps with decent (2 MOA) accuracy out of my .223 using the Lyman 225462 over 23gr W748.

Cheers from New Zealand

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tturner53 posted this 08 September 2009

Thanks Jeff. I've had the day off so have been loading all day, so far .223 and 30-06. The .303 is coming up, hopefully today. My bullets for the .303 will be 314299,308334 and Saeco 315. None of them really fit but I'm going to try them just to say I did. Powder to be AA2700, it's similar to W760 or IMR4320. Do you think a slower powder would be better? I have H414, H450, and H4831.

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JeffinNZ posted this 09 September 2009

I would favour the slower powders you have.  Pressures will be less so your alloy will hold up better.  My .303's love big charges of H4350.

Cheers from New Zealand

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JeffinNZ posted this 09 September 2009

I would favour the slower powders you have.  Pressures will be less so your alloy will hold up better.  My .303's love big charges of H4350.

Cheers from New Zealand

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hunterspistol posted this 09 September 2009

     In my wintertime reading, I ran across BL-C2 in an experiment to simulate Ball ammo. Made by Hodgdon, it's spoken as Ball C 2.  Maybe it's still available.  I think it was from an article in the Art of Bullet Casting, from Handloader Magazine. It was an experiment on 30 caliber.

    Interested? Yes, shoot pictures!

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tturner53 posted this 09 September 2009

HP, just got home from the range. Fired off the first round of 'experimental' ammo. I'll just say it's back to the drawing board. You don't want to see pictures of these targets. My wife made me dinner, to cheer me up, so I gotta run for now. I'll fill in a little more later. Thanks for the interest.

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runfiverun posted this 09 September 2009

if the boolits don't fit your throat much over 2,000 is gonna be a fluke. fit to your throat, protect the base of the boolit, start it out straight and slow,accelerate it slowly lighter boolits,and slower twists tend get get best results.

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tturner53 posted this 10 September 2009

That's the whole thing in a nutshell. Step one is bullet fit, without that it's really hit or miss(mostly miss). Most of the 30-06 loads I tried were with an old Lyman Ideal 308334 that has a .298 nose and ..312 body. With the heavy charges of everything from H335 to H4831 and several inbetween I thought it might bump up. If it did it didn't show. I admit it was a little bit of wishful thinking. The lightest load was with AA#9 and #308314, another obsolete spirepoint. It actually showed some promise at only 1700 fps, 3” groups at 50 yds.! That's way past what anyone recommends for that bullet, but I thought my super hard bullets would be magic. The one bright spot was none of the loads leaded at all, and I'm sure I hit 2800 fps with the .223 and 2600 with the 30-06. My .303 load was estimated to be 2200 fps and keyholed like I've never seen, but no leading. So what did I learn from about 30 hrs. of effort? The speeds are possible but the accuracy won't be there with the bullets I used. If a guy was determined enough a custom bullet with a high BC could probably be made to equal ball ammo ballistics. My .223 loads with Ideal #224450 were eratic to say the least. I'll spare you the details. Thanks again for indulging me and for the good advice. I'll tackle this from another angle after I sort it out a little.   tt    One last thing, a month ago I was shooting my .303 at 385 meters with a .311 jacketed bullet at 2200 fps and knocking down turkeys(or whatever they were), same gun, same bullet diameter,  same powder charge.

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tturner53 posted this 29 September 2009

RUNFIVE,I've been reading a lot on fitting to the throat, I think I get it. It appears to me with a bore riding nose type the bands of the base need to be up in the throat.  “Protecting the base” I assume means use a gas check? Start 'em straight is self explanatory. Start slow and then accelerate =powder choice considering bullet weight, length, and rifling twist? The slow twist I got as my CZ is 1/12” in 30-06. I have a Lee 113 gr, Lee 170 and 200, a Saeco #315, Lyman 135 gr #311359, 311314, and 308334. I have a group buy mold on the way, but it's a little big for the '06; a 314299 modified to .316/306 at 202 gr. Powders I have in large quantities are WC844, Data 68 and 79, AA2230, and WWII 4831, and tons of 50BMG type powders.

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hunterspistol posted this 29 September 2009

:coffee     It's that thing about twist rate, Tim.  Here's my latest results from the 9mm hollowpoint load tests- it illustrates things. 

     The TC barrel is tight, barely accepts the brass and apparently has almost no throat.  It also sports a 1 in 12” twist rate.  The wheelweight hollowpoints shot hot enough at 3.2 grains of Bullseye to act just like Winclean Range Ammo. Okay, I got fouling and possibly some leading. Finally got it cleaned up and decided that's not the load for it.

     I saved a few hundred rounds of these, just to experiment with. Finished up what hollowpoints that were left.  Then, I think to myself, why not see if they'll shoot in the S&W?  I took both 15 round magazines and loaded them to the lead hps. When I shot them at the range, it was entirely different.  The Smith had more room, I shot five and looked at the pistol(like it was from Mars!), and shot the other 10.  The cartridges were feeding easy, operating the slide and recoiling about half as much! They also all went into 1&1/2” at 15 yards.  I thought, somewhere in here, it'll foul out or jam-something.  After a cooling break, I ran the second magazine through without slowing down.  No fouling, not dirty, shoots wonderful.  I just searched up the twist rate and had counted it this morning, officially, it's a 1 in 18.35” barrel.

       Worlds of difference in one change. At least something went right:coonskin:

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