Mold for 25-20 Marlin1894CL

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  • Last Post 04 November 2009
BustemAgain posted this 20 September 2009

  I was just curious if anyone here who has had a Marlin 25-20 1894Cl and dealt with the long chamber and ridiculous twist rate(1in 15” in mine) has ever slugged their rifles throat and had Mr. Smith at LBT make them a custom mold that cured the ills of this otherwise handy and slick rifle.  I am looking for a mold that will give me a chance at 1.5 moa which is what I feel I need for my style of small game hunting.

 I have tried Lymans 257420,257312 and RCBS 25-85-CM.  I am starting work on a Rapine 257075 mold that is plainbased shortly.  The best loads so far are averaging around 3 moa at 100yards right now.  Last season I used the RCBS 25-85-CM over 7.1 gr of AA No.9 lit by a WSP primer which gave me I inch or less groups at 50 yards but were keyholing 5 inch patterns at 100 yds.  The limited range really works on your mind when your hunting. 

 I emailed Mr. Smith about this last week but I suspect he has been too busy to reply yet.  I am thinking a 75-80gr bullet that fit the chamber and throat would work wonders but would really like to hear of anyones experience of going down this road.

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KenK posted this 22 September 2009

I would check to be sure a bullet seated out as long as you want will eject, unfired, and/or feed through the magazine.

No problem loading singleshot for me but a too long cartridge won't eject.

Second, based on my personal experience, you will have a hard time communicating with Veral via email.

 

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BustemAgain posted this 22 September 2009

Thank you for the response Ken.  My Marlin will feed and eject at 1.610 in.  RCBS 25-85-CM at 1.600” just engraves the nose.  The problem so far is that the RCBS bullet is too long to stabilize.  I think that with Mr. Smith's help I could get this thing really shooting.  How does one get in touch with him if E-mail is so unproductive.

  If I can't find a way to spend my money with LBT I have talked with Erik Ohlen about milling the bottom band area off the top of my RCBS 25-85-CM mold and having the bottom lube groove machined open to accept a gas check.

By the way I just had Erik hollowpoint three molds for me(two of them Cramer style) and I must say that he is truly an artist at what he does.  I am very impressed and will be sending him other molds soon.

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CB posted this 29 October 2009

I have used a out of production mold from Bill Anderson in an old Win model 92 I had relined.The bullet weight with lino was about 85-86 grainsI think.

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Dale53 posted this 30 October 2009

I have a Marlin 1894 CL (Modern,first run) and use the Lyman 258420 cast of Linotype sized .258". It shoots possibles on the 50 yard small bore target all day long. The “x” count is not high but I am happy with it.

I load a compressed load of RL-7 (14.5 grs) behind this bullet for my high speed load (just under 2200 fps).

My “medium” load is 11.5 grs of RL-7. I have not chronographed this but it shoots just as well.

My squirrel load is 4.0 grs of Unique and as I remember it runs about 1400 fps. I DO know that it'll take a squirrel out of the tallest tree every time and it shoots as well as the other loads.

I have had excellent case life with this rifle and consider it about as good as it gets for a edible small game rifle.

I have a low powered scope on the rifle and all testing was done with that.

FWIW

Dale53

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BustemAgain posted this 31 October 2009

Thanks Dale for your data.  I have seen you mention this previously and your squirrel load of 4.0 gr of Unique behind Lyman 257420 is my Marlin's most accurate load at 100yds, averaging 2 1/4 inches.   I am thinking that most of my problem may not be the twist but the enormous chamber dimensions in relation to the bore.  I have enough clearance in the neck to chamber a .265 inch bullet.   Problem is my bore measures .256 inch.   Has any body had any luck with a chamber this out of sorts.  My RCBS 25-85-CM mould casts at .262 inch.  I am thinking of trying these unsized lubed with liquid alox in usized cases and seeing if this makes makes a difference.  Previously I had been sizing .2585 inch.  My concern is how to compare apples to apples with previous data because I would have to think pressure could be an issue with squeezing .006 inch out of a bullet in what passes for a throat in this 1894CL.  I am thinking I will start with 5.5gr of 2400 which is a pretty mild load and was nearly as accurate as my best load with this bullet.  I would like nothing better than for this to give some indication of improvement so I can get on with business of enjoying this rifle with no regrets about its accuracy because it truly is a joy to carry afield.

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KenK posted this 31 October 2009

A friend reported that he had a great deal of trouble getting good accuracy out of his 1894cl 25-20 until he started using H-322 powder.  Sorry I don't have any data to pass on.  The best load in my 32-20 is also with H-322, in the 32-20 I load about a full case, I would think it would be somewhat less in the 25-20.

I have a low wall being built right now in 25-20  that I can't wait to try.

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semtav posted this 01 November 2009

Try 10 grains of 4198 with the 257420. I've been getting excellent groups with it. If you still get bad groups, check your mold. Better yet, order 100 bullets from Montana Bullets Works to test.

My 257420  casts out of round bullets, and I get terrible groups, but the bullets from MBW are excellent. ( my mold is going back to Lyman)

Semtav

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Veral Smith posted this 02 November 2009

I'm sorry about being so hard to contact for the last couple of months. I had a problem with the email part of my website rejecting all emails, which I didn't learn about for a long time. It is now fixed. My website is LBTMoulds.com. I can be contacted at my email address which is [email protected] or will return all calls to 1 208 267 3588. I'm rarely by the phone, so just leave a message and be sure your phone number is spoken clearly. I'm quite sure your problem with buckshot groups from your 25-20 is the huge chamber. If a lead bullet tips at any point during takeoff, there is no type of throating that will straighten it out. They MUST be started straight and concentric. In other words, fill that chamber up with the rear part of the bullet. The part inside the case. The ideal body shape for this type gun is for the bullet to have a heavy driving band cut close as possible to groove diameter, with the body as above. It can't tip on take off and will drive tacks if the bore is straight and smooth. I can and will make you one if you ask for it. If the bullet doesn't give half inch groups at 50 yards with most any powder charge, lapping the bore, using the LBT lap kit, will make it shoot. All Marlins I've ever worked with had bores too rough for optimum accuracy with lead, and all are quickly made perfect with lapping. In other words, what I'm recommending is that you lap it before wasting any more time, primers and powder. But don't expect lapping to be the cure all for the undersize molds you now have. The bullet has to fit or it won't shoot. Here are the mechanics of what is happening now. With low pressure loads your undersized bullets are simply going through the bore tipped sideways. If you get pressures high enough to obturate the bullet base, it will slump out of shape and crooked, then size back down as it enters the rifling, still out of balance and with out of square base. Oversize cast bullets, unlike oversize jacketed, do not increase pressure. If working at high pressure with cast, which is the only type loads where pressure is a concern, the bullet is going to obturate and fill the chamber 'tighter than Nick's hatband', which just happens to be a bit larger than the bullet diameter I'm recommending. The worst cause of high pressure with cast bullets is inferior bullet lubricant, which causes the bullets to drag severely while obturation pressure is highest. In other words, the softer the alloy, the more severe obturation pressure against chamber/throat/bore walls will be. An extreme case would be, very soft bullets shot at magnum revolver pressure, when barrel forcing cones are oversize, can obturate so severely that the pressure will split the barrel. For this 25-20 and it's oversize chamber, plan on making your bullets hard, like water dropped WW, lino or whatever. Ideally 20 bhn +. Understand that the fat base bullet is going to have to come down to groove diameter, and in so doing will go out of square on the base slightly. Not so badly as to destroy accuracy, but enough that accuracy will never reach the potential of a gun with close chamber dimensions. If the bullet is started straight and in balance, you won't have any worry about the slow twist not stabilizing them. High twist rates are needed for unbalanced bullets.

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BustemAgain posted this 04 November 2009

Thanks very much Mr. Smith for your reply.  I am quite sure you are right about the large chamber being most of this guns problem.  My experiment with the RCBS 85 grain CM shot unsized at .262in with 5.5gr 2400 resulted in .700 inch groups at 50yds while those sized .2585in averaged 1.5 inch.  The unsized groups were still 3-4 inch keyholes at 100 yds so I suspect twist may still be an issue with this length of bullet.

I will get in touch with you via your email about this.  I am sure to need one of your slugging kits as I want to get these mould dimensions as perfect as possible because I want two moulds, one plain base and one gas checked.  I look forward to working with you and consider it an honor.

Semtav,  Thanks for the 10 gr 4198 Lyman 257420 load you recommended.  It avereaged 2 inch at 100yds when primed with Winchester SP primers. I tried it again at 50yds only this time with Remington 6-1/2 Small Rifle primers  and it averaged 1.6 inches. I think I would stick with Small Pistol primers with that load.  Burns dirty if that bothers any body. 

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Veral Smith posted this 04 November 2009

Thank you. When you get the mold, please post your results on this thread so the readers learn something new. What I wrote above applies to MANY old worn rifles and a suprising lot of unworn guns of recent manufacture, including not only rifles, but auto pistols and revolvers.

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