My interest has been piqued. I was under the impression that cast bullets would deform and offer poor accuracy (and/or leading!!) at the higher end of jacketed load data. Am I wrong?
What is the stoutest, heaviest, fastest big load you have shot with succesful accuracy?
Succesful is relative so please offer details, as this could be valuable.
Thanks,
VASSAL-OF-ONE
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One thing I want to mention here before this thread goes out of control.
What one person does and how fast he can shoot a lead bullet, always consult a current load data book for the safe upper limit before you attempt to fire a “hot” load. This goes for jacketed as well as cast ammo.
It is always best to err on the safe said. The CBA does not advise the use of loads above safe published limits.
Any information contained in this thread will be use at your own peril.
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Hi Vassal,
I seek the same answers too! I've just got a load of high antimony lead: 5%tin, 15% antimony. cut it to linotype specs last night and cast up 60 .375 projectiles which I plan to load into my .375 h&h. I'm tempted at this point to use a starting load as per jacketed bullets out of the manual. Velocity should be around 2400 fps. Leading is the only problem I envisage. I'll keep you posted!
cheers
James
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Yes of course. I thoguht later that some may be hesitant to discuss their hot loads, even though most of us shoot them (except for me, I was under the impression that they did not exist with cast, and that 2500 or so was max and usually less). There is an etiquitte to handloading and discusions thereof. I understand and appreciate that. I am just trying to figure out what can be done, and what can't. If anyone doesn't want to list specific charge or powder data, I completely understand. I believe almost (theres the rub) everyone here understands the risk involved in using anothers load data, and the proper procedures for minimizing that risk, but there may be some who do not.
Again, I am not seeking specific load data. It may not even be neccesary to discuss caliber! I should have phrased my initial post differently; perhaps velocity is what I am really asking about but I wondered about other details that may be relevant (if there are any. Sometimes an ignorant doesn't know how to ask about what he doesn't understand) I am simply confronting a notion that I have been working by and under when loading cast bullets, and requesting enough detail in the comments of others to gain some knowledge.
I was caught by suprise when Mighty Ed, in a recent post, spoke of a load he used to compete with at 600yds! That is what made me wonder,,,,,,,
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I've messed around with the higher velocity stuff lately, mostly just for the heck of it, but also because I'm a closet survivalist and want to know what my limits are. I think most of the guys here are more interested in accuracy than velocity, which of course makes sense. The CBA is a competition based organization. Search and search more, stay up late and read everything you can find here and on boolits, this velocity thing has been done before and there's lots of great info out there. I've just scratched the surface myself. tt:taz:
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Vassal
Since you respond well to my Posts all I can say is most shoot un-published loads. But there are pressure signs with Cast as well as Jacketed loads. I don't publish loads for others use except on occasion where I am talking using Unique powder which I'm very familiar with. There is that temptation to push any load up to rocket speed velocity but why do it. I shoot full blown loads in a PPC and a 6x47 Lapua in my BR guns but I never settle for the max load. I prefer to be able to open my bolt without beating my hand on the bolt and disturbing my set-up. The same could apply to Cast loads if you try and approach 3000 fps some guns might handle it most will not.
Be safe Be sane no need to push the limit. Why waste a good barrel. Cast barrels should have no limit on longevity. Maybe 100,000 + rounds. Barrels don't wear out shooters wear out.
Stephen Perry
Angeles BR:fire
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I have read some where of a shooter casting 30 cal hunting loads of monotype with soft noses that he was pushing up to 2900 fps. I can't remembere where I read the artical. I have no experience with anything above 2000 fps and for my shooting see no need to even go that fast. But it is always fun to try something different even though you may have to scrub a lot of lead out of the barrel.
Carl
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Yes, I agree. The forums here lack some of the usual cues we all have learned to communicate by day-to-day; that seems to lead to misunderstandings sometimes. I am curious about the higher limits of cast shooting but only curious. I don't personally feel the need to push loads farther than the average loads discussed on this forum and elsewhere. the reason I was seeking info is because of a disagreement I had with another shooter. He is vastly more experienced than I but he has ZERO experience with cast (I don't know how that happened, but,,) I was introducing him to cast and he seemed interested, though when I showed up with some loads (max from Lyman cast handbook III) he made some derogatory comments about their strength. I tried to tell him that cast doesn't work quite like jacketed, and that there is nothing you can do to match performance
Sorry to get so long winded but this guy got under my skin in at least three ways (and I am pretty understanding about most things) When I saw Mighty ed talking about competeing with cast on top of full-house loads I began to wonder if I had been wrong--that would be REALLY bad.
Clearly this subject (or the way I have approached it) is considered in poor taste (why exactly I don't know) but I will simply drop it.
Please excuse me Vassal-of-One Nicholas W Jett
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There's nothing wrong with the subject OR the way you approached it.
Can only speak from my own experience but unless you're running a pretty slow twist for caliber those 2300 fps and up loads in a regular off the shelf gun are usually told by someone who heard it from a friend of a friend of a friend's uncle or one of the internet gurus. Ask to see them do it sometime and listen to the excuses you get. People aren't shooting at the speeds they're shooting at for no reason.
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Thank You:^::^::^:, Thank You, For your responses.
I figured that. Thats most of the reason why I have never tried it (that and I'm most often a minimalist.) I try to learn all I can from those who know at the CBA, and I trust the info I gather here. (I even get into arguments based on that knowledge when I have never tried it myself) I shouldn't allow myself to be goaded into arguments, OR run my mouth (so positively) about things I haven't done myself; but like I said I trust the info from the “experts" here, AND this guy was ignorant and insulting.
When I saw some things that made me wonder to the contrary, I thought
"OH NO Don't let him be right!!!!!!!!!.” After all of that!!
I just wanted some affirmation. Thank You.
Maybe I should give him some bullets and let him squirt them downrange at 3000fps.
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Maybe Veral will weigh in on this. Just in case he doesn't, here's a link to where you can buy the book on this subject. http://www.lbtmoulds.com/books.shtml
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Just remember that the title of the book is “Jacketed Performance With Cast Bullets” not “Jacketed Velocities With Cast Bullets". As far as I'm concerned Veral's book is the best out there for a bullet caster and offers more solid information than any other book on the market but I think he's predominently interested in how bullets perform on game and couldn't give a rat's behind about how fast they're going as long as they do the job.
Could you match the speed of 30-30 in a 12 twist 94? I think you could but I don't think you'd have as much luck with a Rem. in 308 or a Savage in 223.
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Yes, I had forgotten about Veral's book. I need to get that. The facts are gennerally known, and I will continue to operate by those generalities as I have been. I will not likely be working on loads much over 2000fps, and if I do it will be merely an experiment to gain a deeper understanding of the components I work with.
Unfortunately shooting involves so many variables and forces so outside our normal ken that certain facts and knowledge are rare. Based on what I have learned and the aFFIRMATION i"ve recieved from recent posts, I am again (nearly-ha) certain that if said local shooter loads a 150 grain bullet cast of ww and lubed with wax on top of a higher than published 150 grain jacketed load of Win760 in a 7.62x54r that the results would be less than stellar, and perhaps dangerous.
Just checking,,,,,just checking,,,,,
I am still interested in knowing about the fastest loads people have shot with succesful accuracy. No leading is one thing but control is another.
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Velocity is just one factor in performance. Yes, manufacturers are constantly pushing their high velocity loads as the best performer, but terminal performance is based on other factors as well. Higher velocity allows the shooter to engage targets at varying distances with less concern for bullet drop and wind drift, given the same weight bullet, but it's energy delivered and expended in the target, when hunting, that makes the difference. In target shooting, drop is not a consideration, given known sight settings and a couple sighters. It's also not that much of a consideration to a rifleman who can reasonably estimate range and keep his shots within the range of his capability.
When Savage introduced the 250-3000, Charles Newton advised it be loaded with a 100gn bullet, but to reach that magical 3000fps, bullet weight was reduced to 87 gns. Great marketing, but the 100 gn load was eventually introduced because it was much more effective on game.
Me, personally, give me the heaviest weight bullet in a given caliber that can be pushed efficiently. They are as effective on game as they are on targets. I've been able to push a 220 gn bullet out of a 30-06 damn near as fast as a factory loading and if I was really that interested, with some serious work at the bench, am sure I could achieve it. But, in what are now considered the “standard” bullet weights, that being 150-165gn, I not sure it's achieveable in a game load.
Lead is lead. There's only so much that can be done as far as alloy modification and heat treating. Jacketed bullets, on the other hand, are being re-engineered on a daily basis, it seems. There's no doubt, in my mind, that eventually, Joe hunter will be able to pull the trigger on the latest, greatest super cartidge and not have to worry, or have an understanding of bullet performence whether the target is 50 ft or 500 yds away and be able to drop the animal. But he has one goal, to harvest the game. He has no interest in being a rifleman.
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Bill
I don't know why but everything you write on Cast I seem to agree with. The 30 cal is the best demonstration you can deal with for hunting. If I wanted to I could cast and load my 311359 bullets ww good enough though I have plenty lino, Danzac the missles and load them behind a snoot full of 4350 and shoot 3500 fps but what for. Chances are it bounces off an Elk at 400 yds and give him a tickle. Now take one of my 311284 cast load a stiff load of 4064 and I bury the same Elk at 400 yd in my Winchester 30-06.
For hunting mass in terms of K.E. substitutes a 200 grn bullet for super sonic velocity with a non expanding bullet. Bill let the high-vel guys go they are a creature of their own habit. Accuracy generally stays with the shooter in control of his weapon.
Stupid is as Stupid does.
Stephen Perry
Angeles BR:fire
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but it's energy delivered and expended in the target, when hunting, that makes the difference.
If that is your criteria, jacketed bullets will win most every time on paper. A 25 grain bullet at 4,000 fps in a .17 Remington produces more foot pounds of energy than a 170 grain bullet at 1,500 fps out of a 30-30.
When Savage introduced the 250-3000, Charles Newton advised it be loaded with a 100gn bullet, but to reach that magical 3000fps, bullet weight was reduced to 87 gns. Great marketing, but the 100 gn load was eventually introduced because it was much more effective on game.
IMO, mostly because of bullet construction, not 13 grains more bullet weight. The excellent Sierra .25 caliber, 90 grain bullet was designed as a deer hunting bullet and it works inordinately well as one started at 2,900 - 3,000 fps.
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I am still interested in knowing about the fastest loads people have shot with succesful accuracy. No leading is one thing but control is another.
I shoot my 30x47 at around 2550 fps with oven HTed 160 gr LBT (Veral Smith) bullets. The twist is 17 and the load is 39 grains of VV135. I've shot it quite a bit faster but accuracy starts to go south.
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I'm a few years and alot of reading off from that BR stuff. I may never get there.?. Certainly is interesting though.
seems like with a heavy bullet (for caliber) and the right conditions a “full-house” load is within the achievable velocity for cast. Also seems like those custom guns are able to handle a bit more. I guess you get what you pay for. Thanks.
also seems as though we have touched on the velocity VS weight , terminal effect debate. WHew! right now I try to just split the difference.??? Ballistics is absolutely amazing!
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Vassal
If you decide to enjoy the benchrest side of the World be sure you read several sides of it. The jacketed is where the equipment side evolves from. Cast BR is good but if you notice most of the major manufactures for barrels, stocks, scopes, rests, and reloading equipment are geared for the jacketed crowd. Good for the Cast crowd and I'm sure guys like Sinclair develop and sell for both.
Vassal with competition shooting rifle or pistol you can put your efforts to a useful test.
Stephen Perry
Angeles BR:fire
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Yeah. I would really like to check out some competition shooters (BR and otherwise) shooting cast and/or jacketed. just to actually see what they are doing. I'm not sure how much of that goes on in St Louis, but I know there are CBA matches in IL some where. maybe next season. Thanks for your input.
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Vassal
St Louis has the most competitive all purpose BR Range in the Country. Check the Website. St Louis, Raton, Sacramento, Holton, Phoenix and now Albuquerque are some of the multi faceted Ranges that include Cast in the USA. There are others even Texas has some miserable Ranges.
Stephen Perry
Angeles BR:fire
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i shoot a 280 grain lbt bullet at 2650 from a 375h&h 1.2 to 2in at 100 yrds from a rest the rifle is a ruger#1 the rest is a tree limb not bench rest powder 4831 bullet fits the throat barel smooth
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Interesting. Those are pretty good groups! That would be terrific hunting load! Have you done testing at even higher velocities and determined that to be the point where accuracy falls off, or did you just figure that was good enough? (It certainly is!)
I like to shoot off of sticks sometimes too. I hope it helps me to be ready for “field” shots, or a surprise.
It is crazy that St Louis has such a competitive BR scene. I need to go see whats going on with those guys; I'm sure I could learn from just watching, even if they don't have time or wish to talk to me. I wonder if watching is a reasonable idea. I don't know anything about these competitions work. Would I just be in the way? Could I see their technique, and glimpse their equipment? Would I know their scores? I know that most can not comment on the specific club rules/procedures, but generally speaking is watching a shoot a good idea or am I wasting my time, and bothering those involved?
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VASSEL ive done no testing at higher velocity thats as far as ill go in that rifle.recoil is more than enough.hunting & working up loads is what i like. i dont know a thing about br.im shure you could watch br at a club & most shooters would be more than willing to answer your questions.you need to get veral smiths book it will tell you what makes cast bullets work & why including high velocity. the information in verals book will have you up&runing in no time.red sleep
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Yeah. I would really like to check out some competition shooters (BR and otherwise) shooting cast and/or jacketed. just to actually see what they are doing. I'm not sure how much of that goes on in St Louis, but I know there are CBA matches in IL some where. maybe next season. Thanks for your input.
If you get a chance you should try to make it up to a match at Windhill next year. I looked and it's about 230 miles from your town. It's about 195 miles from my house so no excuses about it being too far. If you're ever interested drop me a note here and i'll get you directions. Out of the guys that shoot there are 4 past national champions covering PRO, UNR, HVY, and PBB so you'd have a good chance of having someone to answer any questions you'd have. Since the CBA now has a hunting rifle class throw something in the car to shoot. Military rifles are also allowed to shoot at the BR matches so you'd have that option too.
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here are a few tips to accuracy at h/v with cast. launch is first,slow and easy to start. straight is second. fit of boolit to throat is king of the bunch. alloy is third. lube is fourth and lbt blue is not the only lube that will do it either. now a slow twist rate will help immensely also,but is not a show stopper it just makes it easier because of the engagement issues.
powder development is a must. some guns just do better than others. a long nose will not help you here. a couple of my higher loads with cast h-414 39 grs in the 30-30 150 gr boolit. 50 grs rl-19 358 win saeco 248. imr 7828 50+ some grs in the 0-6 165 gr boolit. h-4831 was a fair start in the 7 mauser but tended to lose accuracy after 4 shots. but 22 grs h-2400 and a 168 gr boolit has plenty for now. 4064 and a discontinued lyman 32-40 fn boolit has done over 2400 fps so far. all of the h/v loads has held under 1-1/2” at 100 yds. paper patching has it's merits in the h/v world and works too, but i like plain jane stuff for the fun of it.
remember these are carefully worked up loads and may or may not work for you.
my best accuracy from everyday hunting rifles has come in at about 1900 fps with a medium rate powder <4895-h-322-3031> and a filler which produces good ignition characteristics. my h/v is done with mixes of shot,lino and pure lead so i can reproduce it exactly each time. heat treating is recommended for consistent hardness from batch to batch also but the alloy will produce good results at a bhn of 18-22. and a large batch of ww's could do the same thing.
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Sorry to get so long winded but this guy got under my skin in at least three ways (and I am pretty understanding about most things) When I saw Mighty ed talking about competeing with cast on top of full-house loads I began to wonder if I had been wrong--that would be REALLY bad.
Clearly this subject (or the way I have approached it) is considered in poor taste (why exactly I don't know) but I will simply drop it.
Please excuse me Vassal-of-One Nicholas W Jett
Not in poor taste at all Nick. What you've got is someone who already has all the answers and you aren't going to be able to tell him a think. YOU on the other hand have a lot of questions like myself, I think you'll learn all you want to here man. I'm just a newbie here but I know the type you're talking about. When that happens to me I just smile, nod, and say “yup you got it".
Just an opinion....and don't let Mr. Richard Whiskey get you down man!
Art
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Hi Vassal,
I have just picked up this thread. I see that a lot of info has been posted, more than I can give you at this point. So I can only tell you what I have found so far. I am in the middle of some tests to establish what the practical limits are for plain base and gas checked bullets in a 308 Win rifle. I am separating the MV tests from the accuracy tests for reasons I won't go into now. So far I have run only some MV tests, for the two reasons of establishing max MV and at what point leading becomes problematic.
The bullet is the Lee 180 grain RN that actually weighs 170 grains with gas check and 166 grains without. I am testing with three powders, MP200 (similar Unique) S265 (similar 4227) and S335 (similar 3031).
For plain base I found no visible leading at 1400FPS, so little as to be no problem at 1600FPS but unacceptable at 1800FPS. I have fired gas check at 2400FPS with no leading. I have no doubt that higher MV is possible but I didn't push it because of caution. I have a ballistics lab just down the road which has agreed to measure pressure for me. When that is done I will know more accurately just how far I can push it. But I know of considerably higher MV having been done and answers by others to this thread show that.
Accuracy is another matter entirely. I will be testing that at some point but right now I can't say whether accuracy degrades at the higher velocities. Sub MOA can be gotten with light loads at 1600FPS or so. The bullets need to be hard, about linoytype hard. Veral Smith's book will confirm that. The hardest cast bullets are much softer than jacketed so you need all the hardness you can get. I get that by casting them with 12% antimony, but you can get harder by heat treating.
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I have been working on a Model 770 Win in '06 and thought I was leading free up at about 22-2300 fps. The last few dozens went thru it and after cleaning in poor lighting, I found the muzzle nice and silver. Previously any loads that went thru under or at 2k fps were without fouling. I am using gas checks. I am using slow rifle powders in quantity. Not the typical cast loads, 33 gr of 4895, etc. I may have hit a wall based on my gun. That may help you for basic info where leading might become a problem. Different lube might help me, dunno. Good Luck with it.
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I used to shoot full-charge loads in .30-'06 with heat treated wheelweight bullets which approached normal jacketed bullet velocities and pressures. Once I realized that I was shooting out my expensive target barrels, it became ovious that doing so defeated the whole purpose for which started shooting cast bullets in the first place.
Yes, it can be done, but what is the point?
These days I am using mostly mild loads with plainbased bullets at about 1300 f.p.s. so as to get the most number of rounds for the dollar and to avoid having to replace an expensive barrel so soon.
I find that up to 200 yards the plainbased loads work just fine, so I'm saving my gas checks for hard times when I can't afford jacketed bullets to hunt with anymore and I run out of store bought groceries because the space aliens have eaten them all...
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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Yes, it can be done, but what is the point?
'Cos its cheaper than jacketed ! But for the rest, Ed, I agree 100%. I am testing the upper limits of MV just to satisfy myself. But my real quest is for a light plain base load in front of pistol powder for recreational shooting. Shooting is a lot more difficult here than in the US. There are very few ranges 100 yards or more. My local range is 50m max (55 yards). Thats a bit short for centrefire rifle but I don't want to resort to rimfire because I like casting and handloading. There's no point in full house loads at 55 yards. What I need is a light but accurate plain base load so I can enjoy some shooting without breaking the bank. And, as you say, light loads are good for 200 yards. Furthermore with a slow pistol/fast rifle powder like 4227 or 2400 you can easily get 2000FPS. If you make your own gas checks it is still economical for those who want a bit more range. In the days when the 30-40 Krag was popular, 600 yard comps were regularly shot at that sort of MV. For that matter, look at the downrange ballistics of big calibre heavy bullets fired at modest MV. So I share your view that that is the real benefit of cast loads.
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