Many folks are making their own checks. A fundamental principle is forcing deformable material on to a mandrel. I make mandrels which are the shank diameter of the nominal bullet. For instance .281 inches approximately for th 30 caliber bullet. Steel blocks cast different than aluminum ones. Then the bore diameter of the rifle say .308 for the 30 caliber family measured in the grooves. Forget about the .311-12 you size the bullets at. The notion here is to fill the bore, seal it from the plasma of gasses, metal vapors etc. When swaging a metal about the mandrel then half the difference of the bore(groove) diameter and the shank diameter is the theoretical maximum thickness of the material to use as a base metal. The first constricting forces are the die a mandrel forces the base metal through. That will be the outside diameter of the check (OD). Nothing will bring the check to its inside diameter (ID) of the mandrel unless the approximately maximum thickness is used. Here, about .014” for the 7.62mm family. Now different materials have different memory issues. Until the material is forced or actually extruded there will be a springing back effect. .003-005” is not uncommon. Snugness on the shank depends on how thick the material is to deform the base metal to the mandrel diameter. Too thin and you have krinkling like a coke bottle cap. Way too thick and you have metal weakening and elongation and thinning with little memory or spring back as a result of extrusion. The geometry of the anvil die,and the mandrel are just a starting points. Selection of metal and thicknesses do take a little experimenting something that this whole hobby is all about.
FREECHEX
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- Last Post 25 May 2010
Codarnall
Takes a Califonia kid to come up with a great idea like yours. Others have probably thought of a deal like this but you do it. Be prepared turner will be on and want your first 10,000 checks, helps keep the competition away. My only thing to add do your checks conform to different leade angles.
Stephen Perry
Angeles BR:fire
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My only thing to add do your checks conform to different leade angles.
?????
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I second that ???? A freechex goes on the back of the bullet or am I mistaken?
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Stephen,
Charlie has been making and selling his original Freechex and the much improved Freechex 2 tools on Evilbay for some time now. Check out the threads on castboolits. A good system, just difficult (at least for me) to get one, as he only makes so many and, as soon as he finishes a few and puts them up for sale, they're gone.
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Bill
I like that a shooter can manufacture items to help the shooter in this case the Cast shooter. Especially nice that he lives in Camarillo not far from me.
Stephen Perry
Angeles BR:fire
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.. just difficult (at least for me) to get one, as he only makes so many and, as soon as he finishes a few and puts them up for sale, they're gone.
Bill,
Send Charlie a PM. I think that there is a way that he can set up an evilbay auction “just for you” if he knows what you want.
Jack
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I second that ????
A freechex goes on the back of the bullet or am I mistaken?
Maybe this has been my problem all along. I've been putting the stupid things on the back of the bullet!!
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No, No, No, that was when Bush was pres.. We got a new guy now, they go on the opposite end.
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When Bush was Prez he kept them on both ends and had a pee chute for quick relief.
Stephen Perry
Angeles BR:fire
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Codarnell,
What a timely post. I got the freechex a few weeks ago - checked it out - but just today really tried getting it working. I am using it for the Lee C312-155 for a 7.62 x 39 that I size t0 .312 and 7.62 x 54R that I size to .314 (and also use the Lee C312-185 or 180 - can't remember right now).
The Hornady GC work well and are about .017 thick as best I can tell. I got some aluminum shim stock from HD that was .011 and was still loose after sizing but dropped easily off the mandrel. I had a sheet of .015 alumimnum that was a little better but still loose on the bullet but I had to pull it off the mandrel with plyers. So, I can see that, as you said, the maximum thickness must be about .014 to drop off the mandrel as designed.
So, I'm thinking that stock of .017 would be thick enough to get crimped on when sized - as the Hornady GC does. Is my thinking on target? If so, would that mean that I should ream out the body of the freechex so that the GC would not be crimped so tightly on the mandrel after forming and would drop off easily? If so, what size should it be reamed out to?
Thanks
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The mandrel is about .281-.283 a bit of designers license there for the 7.62 class. If and only if the shank of your as cast bullet is vastly different than .283 don't mess with it. The anvil choke for this caliber is .308. You can safely sand out with a 1/4” wooden dowel with 220 wet dry paper(wet with oil) 2-3 thou in a matter of minutes using a drill motor and the paper taped to the dowel. If you have a jacketed bullet for a gauge you should notice it barely fits in the anvil choke or exit point at the start. You can use this bullet for a test of how much you remove. When it is loose you should be fine but you will be stuck with thicker material for nice looking checks from that point on. I'm supposed to be getting .010 soon and this is why I only sent .008 with the tool as .010-11 is max as shipped. Only remove material from the bottom side of die. The cutter and barrel of the die is at critical tolerance and that is why you need to remove material from the bottom side only. Now if you are prying the check off the mandrel and it is loose on your casting remove material from the mandrel with the mandrel in a drill motor and 240 between your thumb and index finger, coarser paper if it really loose, but finish with 240. Even though the die is .308 it will be 311-12 with the thicker material as long as you are not thinning via extrusion. This Whole procedure should take 10 min. or less. Jeffinnz (sp) has modified everything I have ever shipped to him. At $13. for mail it's an expensive endeavor. He has proven results you may want to query him.
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One other question. I'm newer to this all.
Is aluminum ok to use as GC? Why do the other manufacturers sell copper GC instead of aluminum? Any important risks to using aluminum?
Thanks
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I would defer you to all the posts on the subject which are many. Personally I worry most about the exposed lube grooves picking up dirt etc. out of my pocket.
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Charlie,
I have had a 429 GC form tool from you for about 9 months. Have yet to use it. Needed to work up a very accurate load for testing your checks. I have a very accurate load, very accurate. It's as consistent as the sun rising, using copper Hornady checks. Under your advisement, I will over the next week or two, load the same rounds with your checks and deliver some of what I will consider the most verifiable data that has been given on the subject. I have seen many test, only to be unsure of their load, the weather, what they had for breakfast etc. There will be no such commentary. I expect that the load performance will not change much in either direction.
Please advise on the best material to stamp the checks out on. I am limited to whats around me. You mentioned in the instructions, end grain of hardwood. OAK?? Do I need a block of it, a plank?? Please give me alternatives if possible.
Be advised, when it shoots proper (I say that in full faith), I will need one for .357. Or I will ed some coke can samples from you to test with.
I am not shooting a worn barrel, nor anything that would be subject to some form of inconsistency. It might as well be a pressure barrel on a universal receiver.
Lemme know on the material that is best, beter ond ok. If it were you, what would you go to home depot and buy for a few bucks to stamp out chex??
Mike
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Mike; I have found the critical factor in making your own checks is to completely fill the void that exists between bullet shank and barrel groove (or better, throat). I have done a lot of work on .223 Rem and .303 Brit and have found that using material only 0.002 great in gauge can make a huge difference.
Cheers from New Zealand
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Codarnall
Forgive me for my inital ignorance for what your are doing with your freechex's. This thread gets intersting as it goes. Thanks for sharing.
Stephen Perry
Angeles BR:fire
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Stephen,
Charlie (codarnall) has developed solely, a gas check creation tool allowing you to make checks form aluminum cans, he also has a type that is used with thicker metals such as copper, brass, etc. Bottom line is he has built a check making tool, very cool! Lots of calibers. check his auctions on Ebay for more info on prices, how it's actually used (video) etc.
Charlie, I hijacked your response opportunity 'cause I was doing some marketing for you!!
Long live Charlie.
JeffinNZ, what do you use to stamp out the checks on?? Wood, rubber, aluminum, lead, ???? What is working the best that I can probably get from the local hardware or lumber supply?? Also further explain the .002 number more clearly please. Elaborate. Use an example of a bore that is .4275, bullet friction fits at .4315 at front bands. Assume shank is pretty small. Thanks in advance.
BTW: Jeff, bust some more bunnies and get some pix up of the carnage. My kids dig the pictures. Gets them reved up to go hunt.
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I cannot seem to find anything on ebay re: “freechex", codarnall, or gas check. What search terms should I be using?
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CORERF: With the old style Freechex I used to punch out disc on end grain of hard wood. Of course now Charlie is making the FC II that cuts its own disc you could not pay me to use the original model
I have found that it is crucial to match the gas check to the final sizing diameter or larger. On my .303 Brit bullets if the final diameter of the seated check is .312 the accuracy is nowhere near as good as if the check is final girth of .315/.316. Measure the GC shank of your bullet at the base (they generally taper), subtract this from the diameter bullet you intend to shoot then half this amount to get the material you need as a minimum.
EG: For .30 cal on a Lyman bullet. Shank = .284 Sizing = .310 Diff = 0.026 Material = .013
I found a difference in my .223 between using 0.008 and 0.010 material with the 0.010 being much better. Off course that's an extra two thou EITHER side of the bullet so four thou difference all up.
Hope this helps.
Cheers from New Zealand
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evrytime I see JeffNZ's avatar it looks like he has clubbed the little kangaroo with a golf club wearing a club head cozy.:^:
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Thank you Jeff for the extra info. That helps huge
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evrytime I see JeffNZ's avatar it looks like he has clubbed the little kangaroo with a golf club wearing a club head cozy.:^:
FOUR!!!!!!!!!!
Cheers from New Zealand
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http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=64934
A bit of a history lesson can be had here I believe. I have had numerous questions about a tool apparently co-invented by this fellow ZEEK. Often referred to me has a Hanned tool. The questions or even accusations concerning Paco Kelly's tools likeness I believe can be answered by this historian. What a refreshing event for anyone interested.--Charlie
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http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=672663#post672663
Without naming names thanks for two rolls of .010-11 aluminum which I have not been able to find. Hand delivered they were just sitting on the office desk I understand. Material thickness is somewhat crucial in forming nice looking checks as this link on depicts. ===Charlie
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Codarnell,
What a timely post.
Thanks
Here is a loose check problem and proposed solution. The tools (FREECHEX) were not created in a vacuum some used 3 layers of soda can material in the early days. Many folks had excellent suggestions.
Solution:
Dear Anonymous: The tool, sounds proper in every way. What you are experiencing is normal. The mandrel is in fact round. I suspect it is the only thing that is round. Very high quality dies do cast round bullets but production molds are rarely do. .015” is of course over maximum. Because the check is sticking to the mandrel then it's ID is approximately .402 unless it sticks when placed back on the mandrel again, which would be the best estimate of the check's ID. If your bullets are round you are lucky and I am amazed.
1) taking at most .002 off the mandrel may make for a tighter fit. The OD will still be .428 with .014 material, if it still sticks to the mandrel.
2) taking at most .001 off the ID of the die will then stop the swaging process somewhat and the check may spring back to say .431", like magic.
You have just discovered the effects of the material and thicknesses. Copper and brass are different still. I still suggest lube on the base like Lyman does, some use super glue, most folks I've found are very creative.
If I had the die back I'd just grind (polish) off the .002 with a standard Dremel rubberized fine wheel (1"x1/8"). You may then go up to say .016 material and extrude the check out and close to the 1st driving band.
This tool has been successful because of the end users ability to adapt it using various materials for their own needs. I consider the substantially correct and to the proper specifications. It's your call.
Regards, Charlie
There is a saying that I just love. I heard it many times as a T&E engineer. I see it often, this phenomenon, and without this accompanying phrase. ” IF YOU CAN'T FIX IT --FEATURE IT!"
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Maybe I'm wrong but isn't aluminum a very abrasive material. The outside turns to aluminum oxide which is the same as sandpaper. I was told that was why they don't make bullet jackets out of aluminum. This is what I was told by a bullet manufacture. Just asking.
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Aluminum isn't really abrasive, and aluminum oxide doesn't form, at least not very quickly, on pure aluminum, which is what most beverage cans are made of. Aircraft aluminum (2024 and 7075) are highly subject to corrosion, so the sheets are coated with .002 each side with pure aluminum for corrosion protection. It takes years for aluminum oxide to form then.
It's a good question, and has been kicked around quite a bit here as well as on other forums. Actual users have reported good results using aluminum.
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I just today finished making my own version for 7mm.
Instead of the disk cutter that is hammer driven I made a punch & die that is used in a small arbor press. This system is very fast and accurate. For material I am using aluminum roof flashing that I get in 12” X 50' roll from the local Big Box home center.
The system has been used on a 9mm bullet for 9mm Para and works well.
The arbor press punch system is also be used to punch out card stock for 12 & 20 Ga. slugs. Dies are just made for the thicker stock.
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How does one contact the fella that makes the freechex tools? I tried a pm with no luck .
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Here are several pictures of a FCII 50. One went to Queensland,AU, the other to Quincy MA last week. I generally make them as custom auctions at the end of the month. One sat for about six months a year ago. Generally the are .503/.458x.080 made from .020 stock.-Charlie
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I just got my Lee mould this afternoon and the shank does measure .458 after bullets cooled so that diameter will work great !
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The next generation FREECHEX possibly. May not be strong enough for thick brass thus it will need more testing. Should be easy at a CNC shop to fabricate.
Charlie
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A gas check in one strike of the mallet!!!
Charles; I have contacted the Vatican and asked for Sainthood to be bestowed upon thee.
Cheers from New Zealand
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WoWWWWW! Charlie you have a standing order for 30 cal and 35 cal., one each. Keep me posted.
corerf
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Now that is cool! Now if that could be fabricated into a die and punch that would fit in a rockchucker press it would be almost ecstasy!
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In the past couple of weeks I have been reading a lot on the bulletin boards about tools to make your own gas checks. They all seem to be more work than I really need. So, I decided to see if I can come up with something a little faster. I want a tool that I can use in my reloading press to cut and form 30 cal. checks with one stroke of the press. I have come up with a design and a working prototype that does just that. Feed in the metal and move the handle and the checks land in the spent primer container ready for use. No hammers or fumbling with little metal disks. I made the tool to use .015 to .018 aluminum shim stock cut in strips up to .625 wide. I know soda cans are free, but if I'm going to make checks they need to be ready go from the press. I don't want to have to glue them to the bullet or use multiples disks because they are to thin. Here is my version of a a tool. I made it from the body of a Lee 22 Hornet necksizing die that I removed the insides. It screws into your reloading press. I also made the cutter and die so that I can change them to make different size checks. I have made checks for 30 cal. and 357 so far and it works just fine. My tool does not punch the disks that forms the check, it cuts them and requires little pressure on the press handle. So far I have shot a number of groups lessthan 1” at 100 yds with my 308 using the same bullets I shoot with commercial checks. Where I want to go from here with the tool is still up in the air. They do require quite a bit of time to make. Using the body of the Lee die does speed things up a bit and might save enough time to offset the cost. Time will tell !!
Jeff, controll yourself.
mrbill2
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You appear to have a winner, there! I would certainly be interested in one. Freechex are nice but I simply do not have the time to surf evilbay waiting to see if I can get a shot at one of Charlie's.
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I'm going to call Lee and see if I can purchase the parts used to make my die. I realy don't want to buy the complete Hornet die and throw the guts away. Making my own die body adds quite a lot of time to the project. I did that with the first one I made.
First one made.
mrbill2
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You can buy parts directly from lee. The hard part, sometimes, is finding the part #.
This is the page for the neck dies. Next to the listing for the 22 Hornet is a link “service parts". That takes you to the replacement part page. From what I can tell, it's either $8 or $14.
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Jeff, controll yourself.
That is hard to do sometimes...
Darn nice target Bill! Good Job!
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Jeff
I think I'm set for the new hunting gun class.
Bill
Thanks for the link. I tried to call twice today but couldn't get through. I'll try again monday, if I'm done shoveling the white stuff.
You can buy parts directly from lee. The hard part, sometimes, is finding the part #.
This is the page for the neck dies. Next to the listing for the 22 Hornet is a link “service parts". That takes you to the replacement part page. From what I can tell, it's either $8 or $14.
mrbill2
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Dollar Bill
Check this out.
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That's fine, if I was looking for a 303 Charlie. Also see there's a 44. Now, if there was one for .30, I'd buy one.
.>
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That's fine, if I was looking for a 303 Charlie. Also see there's a 44. Now, if there was one for .30, I'd buy one.
.>
The following is from the ebay description.
"
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Thank you for pointing that out, Fred. I did not scroll down to the bottom of the page where that statement is made. If they are, in fact, two different tools, I would think it would have been advertised as a .30 check making tool only. 303, 8mm, .32 use a different size, so the description is deceiving. I'm not a fan of Ebay, so will just wait until someone who takes regular orders for their tool has one available.
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Any ideas would be appreciated. Charlie
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