Need advise on BP squirrel rifle purchase at Cabelas

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  • Last Post 28 September 2010
corerf posted this 21 January 2010

Advise me please. Wanting to spend some cabelas bucks ion a muz loader, squirrel rifle. I don't do BP at all, not since a kit pistol when I was 17, now am 40. So..... I like accuracy and long distance. But I don't like breaking the bank. Want to use for target shooting at 100+ yds, squirrels, etc. 32 cal, 36 cal???? Want a long barrel, yes??? Bullet design?? Lee combo molds or REAL bullets, what results you have had with REAL's, conicals or ball. BP or substitute?? Patch or no patch?? Conical or ball?? Or Both?? $600 is max I can spend, have about that in Cabelas points. Thanks in advance folks.

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billwnr posted this 21 January 2010

Check out the February NRA American Hunter magazine. They have an article in it (and a review on one BP rifle) on blackpowder squirrel hunting.

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corerf posted this 21 January 2010

I read it last night when it arrived. Thanks, I'll pursue some back issues that may be online to get some info as well.

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billwnr posted this 21 January 2010

If I lived in a state that had squirrel hunting I think I'd get one of these rifles. That article was a good read.

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CB posted this 21 January 2010

I shoot both conical and RBs in mine, I use Pyrodex becuase I got a good deal on a few pounds before this current supply crisis.

The squirrels around here would be really blown away by many loads whether modern or BP. Generally they are maybe 30 feet away. Let me say this, I do well with 22 Shorts in an old bolt action rifle.

Jerry

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sabbatus posted this 21 January 2010

ive been shooting a .36 for a few years now at all sorts of small critters. lots of fun. a patched round ball is all that is needed,and plenty accurate. really dont need the extra thump of a minie ball type, let alone finding them in the small calibers. i mostly use thirty or forty grains of goex fffg, and it really can be considered overkill. if i get another front stuffer for small game i will go with the 32

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tturner53 posted this 22 January 2010

I have a .32 TC Cherokee. It's small, light, compact. The .32 RB will do on anything you should be shooting with such a small caliber, but the conicals are fun to shoot. If I could I'd swap it for a .36, less wind sensitive. I think the .36 RB would be better for jack rabbits, they're tough. With RBs going up a bit in caliber gives a much heavier ball. I only use black powder, just don't seem right using substitutes. You can get a 25 .lb case delivered and you're set for a long time. A thousand #11 caps is $40, lead can be free if you're lucky. I've tapped into a source for lead roof flashing at .25 .lb, it's dead soft. Even if you have to buy some lead to get started with these tiny balls it goes a long way. In my .32 I use a .315 RB and pillow ticking, also scrounged.

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RockChuck posted this 22 January 2010

Sir,

Please excuse me if you are already aware of this but a 1 in 48 twist might not stabilize  a REAL or conical bullet well enough to have the accuracy that you desire at that range.(100 yrds)  The patched round ball in a good rifle with a good shooter can reach out that far accurately but it might not have the energy left to do very much work.  Others with more savy and experience may have other viewpoints on this and if so please share.

Chuck Martin

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R. Dupraz posted this 22 January 2010

Hi :

I have been building and shooting traditional ML's for a number of years now. And am basically a traditionalist, ie, black powder and patched round ball. However maybe you will find the following helpful.

.1. Target shooting-- It depends on what your expectations are at 100 yds. With a patched round ball, both the .32 and the 36 are not 100 yd guns. They can really shine on the target in perfect conditions out to maybe 50 in a light hunting rifle,maybe.. But that's even stretching it for the 32. They are terrific small game guns within that range though.

  1. Barrel length- matter of choice nowadays. The  long ML barrel does aid in sighting, holding and is traditional.

  2. Bullets- The round ball does need a greased patch of some sort when it is loaded. This helps to clean the  bore as a ball is rammed each time and causes the rifling to grip the ball for accurate shooting. The 1/48 twist should be fine for the patched round ball in .32 or .36. However, I don't know about the real bullet or any bullet in this cal. I do have a .54 Cabelas Hawken with a 1/48” twist and it will shoot both conicals and RB's very well. Personally, I don't think there would be any advantage to shooting anything other than a patched round ball in either the .32 or .36, keeping their limitations in mind. And all bullets and balls must be soft lead.  

  3. Black powder or substitute-- Depends on what is available in your area and what you would like to use. Black is traditional and creates more fouling which has to be managed after each shot. The substitutes, a lot less, so not so much an issue. Accuracy can be very good with both.

I would suggest finding a Lyman or Gun Digest black powder shooting book. There are probably others. but these are the most familiar. 

Hope the above is useful and good luck   

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corerf posted this 22 January 2010

Mr. Dupraz,

Would you suggest a 45 cal for 100yd plus/minus work? I shoot a 7.5 inch 22 LR pistol with red dot sight to 110 yds and make clean kills on rabbits and squirrels. As much fun as the ML would be, if I am better of with a 22 pistol than with a 50 inch rifle due to 32 or 36 cal, then maybe the small bore is not going to fill the bill. I would be discouraged by a rifle that can't hold up 100 yd due to ball and bore limitations. Advise?

Although shooting a ML in 32 cal and not having a great 100 yd group would force me to work hard to get a better group, I think at some point I would put the rifle down not having sufficient drive to shoot it. 45 or 50 cal better, seems like a 50 at a squirrel is like a cannon ball??

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32HR MAG posted this 22 January 2010

Just my .02 but I think you are asking way to much out of way to little.A good .32 BP is at the limit for even small game accuracy at 100yds,much less target.Also ........Most .22 LR rifles are pretty much done at the same distance.It's best to think of the .32 and .36 as BP .22 LR.....Lyman Black Powder Handbook & Loading Manual is a good reference book  Having said that .I am a fan of the .32 and if you do your job 100yds can take the small game.Sight in at 75 and learn your trajectory.The load that gets you out with enough punch at 100 will be a bit much at 25.So go for head shots at close range and save some meat.  Another thing to consider is, shooting with iron sights at such a small target at anything past 50yds is going to be tricky no matter what you use.

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R. Dupraz posted this 22 January 2010

corert:

32HR Mag has said it best.

I'll just add that the kind of ML that we're talking about here is pretty much a relatively short range rifle. In order to do what you want the rifle to do, a .45 might be on the bottom end. With the .50 or .54 better yet. Now I'm talking about getting the kind of accuracy that you want at 100yds. But then overkill and recoil become issues on small game.

The .45 might be an option. but only if it is a very good shooter. I once had a 45 with a custom barrel that would shoot . 50 cal holes all day long at fifty yds. and would do 3"-4” at 100 with open sights and off of a bench on a good day. But personally never thought that this was good enough with open sights in a hunting situation, for animals as small as a squirrel at 100yds.   

 

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tturner53 posted this 22 January 2010

Going up to a .40 would improve downrange ballistics a lot and still be a reasonable small game rifle. They are still relatively short range deals, but a lot of .40s were used in the old days. Just don't be tempted to make a deer gun out of it. A little off topic, but any suggestions on removing a stuck nipple on a ROA? It's functional, but stuck good. Tried soaking with Kroil.

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32HR MAG posted this 22 January 2010

I use a product that works very well.I am an independent dealer and am not sure if I can mention the name on the forum.You can PM me for more info.

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tturner53 posted this 22 January 2010

Sure you can, we name products all the time, share opinions on different stuff. If a member makes a buck so much the better. I'd sure like to hear about it, might save me some grief. Midway finally got Ruger nipples in, mine are on the way, gotta get that sucker out.

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32HR MAG posted this 23 January 2010

Amsoil has a product called MP.It is the product we have used for as long as I can remember on the farm.I also use it for cleaning my firearms and fishing gear.It is long lasting and has a good light lube quality.

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corerf posted this 23 January 2010

Okay. Thanks for enduring the questions. Again, I have NO experience with an RB in flight so 32HR, I like the 22lR/ML parallel you drew. It makes sense!

So I do a 36, get what I can out in range and hope that I get a few inch group at 100. Otherwise, keep it to 50.

I'm not used to NOT being able to shoot out to 100 yds. I can do stuff with a revolver at 75 yds off-hand that I won't speak of, not bragging. I just expected to do similar with a rifle at 100.

But BP is a whole diff. ball of wax. Patches, RB, Butter??>?>?>, inconsistencies in each load and loader. I was expecting too much. Appreciate the steering.

Side note, anybody shoot 458 win mag, cast 400-500 gr for long range (like a smokeless 45-90+P).??? They seem awful similar in velocities, bullet weight, shape and case design.

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RockChuck posted this 23 January 2010

tturner53 I used to share your frustration with stuck nipples on a pair of “Old Army” Rugers but one day when removing an exhaust manifold I realized that the high temp antisieze thread lube from Permatex had performed as advertised in that the bolts came out without any tendency to stick at all.  The “light came on” and I thought about the stuck nipples on the revolvers.  That evening; now many years past, I removed all nipples on my BP guns and applied just a small dab around the leading threads of the nipples before replacing them. I've worn out and replaced a couple of sets of nipples since that time and haven't had another one lock up yet.  I realize this doesn't address your immediate concern of removing the stuck nipples.  What I did for that was to place them in a can half full of KD Knock er Loose(WD 40 would work) and forgot about 'em for about a week after which they came out more or less without hassel.  Hope this helps you get back to :fire soon.

Chuck Martin

 

 

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tturner53 posted this 23 January 2010

Thanks for the suggestions guys, I'll see what happens. It looks like I've hijacked this thread pretty good, so I'll report back on any progress in a new one.   EDIT; The light came on, I tried a socket wrench with the Kroil and voila! The socket wrench gives way more leverage than a Ruger nipple wrench.

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32HR MAG posted this 24 January 2010

corerf,as far as BP inconsistencies between loads .That is something that is pretty much up to the “person” making the load.Test have proven that with careful loading,powder, patch, lube,presssure  on seating the projectile and percussion cap.You will have little  inconsistencies.And the accuracy will be consistant also.What you are asking is not impossible, as far as the consistant accuracy.Just not likely.Remember the roundball is a poor projectile when it comes to retained energy after it gets out so far.When the energy really drops so does it's ability to fight all other variables.  Me myself,I really like the .32 caliber in most any configuration.

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Mnshooter posted this 10 February 2010

Probably a little late on this one, but I hunt squirrels with a 25 flintlock that uses #3 buckshot weighing in at 24 grains. For squirrels most calibers are a bit of overkill and I really saw no difference between a light loaded 45 and a 32, whcih seems to require a heavy load of about 20-25 grains to be accurate. They all decapitate squirrels and rabbits. Flintlocks are more fun but require real BP

DP

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corerf posted this 21 May 2010

Followup on this old post that I ran into while searching for some load data.

So far I have collected 3 TC hawken's. a 54 (factory), a 50 (factory) and a 40 cal with GM barrel (new barrel I am dropping in), 38 inch.

I have seen the awesome accuracy that can be had with a TC factory barrel, .25 inch groups at 50 yds in poor shooting conditions. I have yet to fire the 54 due to time.

I just received the 40 cal yesterday, year long backordered barrel from Green Mountain, 38 inch. I have run ballistic data and believe that it has a kill range of 130 yds+

I am gunning for the 54 to do 200+ yds (I know the KE will drop to very low levels but it's only a lung, not a shoulder bone)

Each of the TC's will be fitted with either a: Williams FP-HAWKEN-TK peep sight or the Lyman 57 SML. Also front sights will be Pedersoli hooded (similar to Lyman 17). I expect to get the 40 out with the factory sights in a week (the smith needs to drill three holes in three tangs for the sights, and he's behind). I am expecting very good results from the 40.

I just wish there was a definitive authority on max charge for the GM barrel. I have NOT called GM, they are a PITA to talk to, but I shall in the AM. I have seen Lyman data at 65 gr max FFF, but also I have really OLD Lyman data that is from DuPont (Pre-GOEX) thats shows testing up to 110 gr (not that it would help) but max velocity for a 38 inch barrel is found at about 95 gr FFF. But typical loads for folks who seem to shoot at plinking distance is 30gr-40gr max. Unless I can get a 4 inch over/under on trajectory at 65 grains, I need more velocity. My average shot will be 100 yds.

I like knowing the max charge value for the PRB so that I can work up confidently. If 90 is TOOOO much and the old data will bulge my barrel, then I don't want to go there.

I DO need a max velocity load, where the BP has completed burn and I have hit the V max wall (more BP stops changing velocity significantly) so that I can flatten the trajectory out to 150 yds if possible.

Anybody have ANY significant knowledge or data that shows the TYPICAL max charge that a 40 cal barrel can withstand repeatedly??? Not an absolute max, ball buster load  but the load that wont hurt the barrel , may be uncomfortable but is safe, maybe not accurate, but safe and NOT detrimental.

I look at a 45 cal, 15/16 barrel of the same maker, same material, etc. 110gr.

I look at 36 cal barrel data from various sources, Sam Fadala, etc. They show 70 as a possible max for javelina in 36 cal.

So interpolating, the 15/16 barrel in 45 (thinner walls) can take TWICE the textbook max load that is usually found published for a 40 cal PRB barrel.

The GM barrel warranty card says NO barrel should be pushed beyond 120 gr maximum loads. Does this generic limit suggest that all the barrels can take 120 gr, including a 32 cal barrel?? Seems like too broad a statement. small bore, more PSI and for longer period. Anyway I know the 50 thou difference from 45 to 40 can't possibly shave the load value by 50% (i.e., 110 down to 65)

Any pearls of wisdom out there??

Be advised, I have a grip of Lee Molds to cast Pb balls and Reals for the growing Cap and Ball arsenal.

Thanks in advance

Mike

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Daryl S posted this 22 May 2010

What is the rifling twist on this Cabalas gun? Is it a round ball twist, ie: 48” or slower, or is it a 24” or faster twist suitable for conicals, short or long?

The twist and groove depth will dictate what projectile will give the best results.

The smaller the ball diameter, the shorter the effective range, although I do well on all our trail-walk targets with my .32 - longest is at 109yards - all offhand shooting, but I prefer the .40 or larger for long range. The .32 will hold into 3” at 100 yards, while the .40 through .69 cal. rifles are more consistant at longer ranges.

The small bores were meant for close range shooting, not long range. With that in mind, 100 yards is long range. The .32 RB gun will group 1” at 50 yards off bags. The .69 does this at 100 and hold 2 MOA at 200. Recoil is different between these two extremes.

If you want a slug gun, buy one made for shooting slugs. Don't try to make a round ball gun into a slug gun without changing the barrel.

Pyro, T-7, Black Mag 3 and Clear Shot have potassium perchlorate in them - up to 17% of the charge. If this means nothing to you, ask a chemist. I've seen it rot cases and too many barrels.

After a short test period with the phony powders mentioned, I shoot only real black powder - have for almost 40 years.

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Johnny Breedlove posted this 28 September 2010

Deffinately a little late on this one. The guy has probably already spent his money, and hopefully harvested some squirrels

With $600.00 in Cabelas bucks you should be able to find a 32 and a 50 allbeit used guns, or check out the for sale adds in this forum and others check out the used gun racks at cabelas. Use the 32 up close and the fifty for long shots. In my experience with squirrel hunting most of which is done shooting straight up into Ponderosa pine trees. I think almost all squirrel shooting is done at 25 to 150 ft.

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bsdger45 posted this 28 September 2010

The barrel quality is of prime considaration for an accurate m/l. I scoped a t/c Seneca 36 with a 48” twist. I lead lapped the barrel. With targets in hand, the results, all five shot groups....... patched RB, 25g 3f 50 yards 2 1/2” group polypatch RB 28g 3f 50 yards 1 5/8” group Maxiball 50g 3f 100 yards 2 3/4” group I didn't attempt round balls at 100 yards. The maxiball is impressive at 128 grains going 1550 actual fps. The rb weighs a mere 65 grains The scope is a 2x Leopold LER. Five clicks or graduations up, put the rifle “on” at 100 yards. Two quality barreled m/l, a Douglas 7 groove, 45 cal, and a Green River 50 cal., are capable of putting 5 shots in one ragged hole at 50 yards with open sights. They are both slow twist round ball guns. I don't have groups at hand for this 36 cal Maxi ball data, but with 60 grains of 3f the vel is 1603 fps and with 70 grains of 3f the vel is 1689 fps. This is with old DuPont powder. Goex is 50 and 100 fps faster respectively.  I don't know if these results are typical, just the best that I can do.

John

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