44-40 bullet choice questions...

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  • Last Post 15 March 2010
rdlange posted this 05 February 2010

If this is posted in the wrong place please accept my first post ignorance... let me know, and move the post as appropriate.

I have a 'modern' Marlin 1894 in 44-40 with 20” bbl, microgroove rifling.  I want hunting bullet loading for deer, pigs, etc, here in Texas. 

I know I need to crimp the cases well for tubular magazines. I've read I need an oversize bullet, .429+, a harder alloy and with gas checks for good accuracy & no leading at higher velocities with hotter loads.   And 'maybe' that heavy bullets won't stabilize accurately in the 1in38 twist barrel. 

The only one I can find is the Lyman 429640 HPGC, which seems to have all the features.   However, I'm concerned its 450g is too heavy for my 44-40 and microgroove rifling.    And I haven't found any load info on it yet.

Have also found molds for lighter 210g gas check bullet, Lyman 429215, which has a good reputation but no crimp groove.  Don't know how they will work of how to crimp so they aren't forced back into the case in a tubular magazine.

I don't know about other bullets yet, but very open to suggestions.  My intent is to get some for trial and then the mold to cast what works.  Not into Cowboy Action Shooting right now

1.  Please advise as to whether/how the 429640 would work in the slow twist microgroove barrel, and maybe load info,

2.  how to crimp non-crimp groove bullets in thin neck 44-40 so they don't telescope into the case... (I have Lee crimp die).

  1. of another good .429+ bullet (gas check and crimp groove.?) suitable for my needs.

Be Well.

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tturner53 posted this 05 February 2010

I don't know anything about the 44-40, sorry, but try the 'Search' feature, maybe just enter 44-40 and see what comes up. I do load for a .44 Ruger BH and am impressed with the Lee 430-300. It might be too heavy for the 44-40, I don't know, but the mold is cheap to buy. Also, search 'Micro Goove rifling' and see what comes up. There's a lot of guys shooting cast bullets in them just fine.

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corerf posted this 05 February 2010

I don't think you can get about 250gr on that cartridge, period. Normal loading is 200 +/- gr. Thats at 1200 fps MAX. If you went to 300+, if it would chamber, your down at slow pistol speeds like 750-800 fps. It's hurt but thats not adequate for hunting deer humanely, I don't think. Maybe real close in. I think your gonna need more velocity than you can get above 240gr bullet. Then I think you'll have a 50 yd clean kill reach. For a hog, bullet placement will be in order. Thats a SLOW, midweight bullet. I think I would look towards that 1300-1400 fps range with 180 gr. Thats the equivalent hit from a moderate loaded 357 maximum for velocity vs bullet weight. It will make a solid 75 yd kill with reasonable placement. With a 240 gr bullet, it would be like hunting deer with a 45 acp. Not pretty. Doable, but not pretty. My .02 dollars. FWIW

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giorgio de galleani posted this 06 February 2010

Please everybody correct me ,if you feel I am wrong,but,I have a Lyman 429215 gas check bullet,and it has a crimp groove,at least yuocan crimp it in the forward groove.

Your overall lenght is dictatel by the possibility of feedin correctly from the magazine. 

If your rifle is really a modern microgroove barrel carbine,you could load your piece,with current modern brass to higher  pressures than the pressures of old black powder peacemaker revolvers and obsolete (dangerous) pre Win 94 carbines.

Current marlin ,and all carbines and rifles  in 44 mag  and 444Marlin,have the wrong ,too long bullet twist,a round ball twist.(1in 38")

I have a recent marlin 44 mag (non micro groove) that shoots well 250 cowboy bullets,the 429 215 gas check bullet and the Lee 300 gr gas check bullet.

Get and study the recent Lyman manuals,You'll see that the 44/40,( having more case capacity) needs more powder than the mag to get mag velocity with 200 gr bullets.

And I would definitively NOT like to have any 44 bullet through both of my lungs.

Of course you'll have to slug throat and barrel of your rifle, and size your bullets  accordingly .I think 450 grains is too long for a 44 WCF.

Elmer Keith used pretty soft 1/10 lead tin bullets in his 44 mag loads,and I had good accuracy in an old microgroove barrel 44m carbane with a 215 ww bullet and gas checks. I usedVihtavuori 110,you,in the US have 2400,high velocity and no leading.

Your only handicap with a 44/40 versus a 44 magnum,is in the fact that you cannot find 44WCF carbide sizer dies.

Look on the Net  for stories by PACO KELLY -leverguns,he is well satisfied with micro grooved barrels.

Of course those are personal opinions and open to debate with the membership. 

 

 

 

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corerf posted this 06 February 2010

I would like to clarify what I have typed which may be misleading based on how I typed it I was brief and indirect). I in my last post, said using a 250gr bullet with 44-40 would be like hunting with a 45 acp. Slow and rainbow in trajectory, with moderate energy left over. Giorgio, a 44 bullet at any speed will mess up lungs and kill, agreed. But my intent was to say that at 250gr, thats a bigger bullet than maybe the thin cased 44-40 should be asked to push and would be better suited for trajectory, energy, penetration, etc with a 200 gr +/- bullet. That said, a 450 gr bullet would be hugely lackluster and probably non-functional.

I should have typed more words. A large bullet at 75 yards may have enough energy to kill anything but due to poor trajectory, likelyhood of a bad hit and subsequent non-humane kill is higher. What if you don't get the lungs because the bullet drops 8 inches in flight, that kinda thing. Kinda the yin and yang of bullet weight vs useable range. These are thoughts that may be out of line in real world use. Has anyone used a 300 gr in the 44-40 and experienced what the useable range would be?? I know it has the mass to drill thru an animal, but can you consistently connect with a 6-8 inch vital area with a rainbow trajectory, used in the brush where compensation for drop might be impossible due to reaction time.. Theres the 45 acp comparison. Slow, punchy due to weight, a killer at 50yds and under but at distance it's not so good. Just seems like the round would become rainbow over a shorter distance and difficult to use at 75-100 yds. as a brush gun. But at 50 yds and under, it would be like hunting with a 6 inch revolver, and that works pretty well. Very well in fact.

I hunt mostly with handguns, I like 357. So I choose the 158 gr weight for the reasonably flat trajectory out to 75 tds. With holdover I can kill rabbits on first shot off-hand at 100-110 yds. They dont die though, they get a clean hole punched thru them, roll over two or three feet, twitch, then at the point where I have walked 10 yds, they startt to crawl or walk slowly away. I made the hit, alot of energy, a nice hole but the rabbit aint dead. I also have to have TIME toi make that shot, as much as a minute to sight and hold,etc. Not a Brush gun kind of experience. If I shot a bigger bullet, I would have huge holdover. A smaller bullet will likely not have what I need to get it done either. The compromise.!

Hopefully that clarifies what I meant to type. A 450 gr bullet wont work in a 44 mag or my 445 supermag, I can't see how it could work with the 44-40. I think 300 is a huge stretch, 250 max, 200 +/- just right, balanced for energy retained with good trajectory. 180 is flat but might not bust the animal up enough for a GOOD kill.

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Buffalo Bill posted this 08 February 2010

I too recently acquired a modern Marlin M1894S in .44-40.  I have only shot it a few times, the first with some soft, plain-base cast bullets (unknown mold) weighing about 208 gr. (4.6 gr. 452AA, lightly crimped just ahead of the front driving band, and COAL of 1.53 inches).  This light load gave reasonable accuracy and fed OK from the magazine.  I also have some light loads using the same bullet, but crimped in the forward lube groove to give a COAL of about 1.585 inches.  These rounds also seem to feed OK from the magazine.  All bullets are sized to .428 inches in diameter.

 Additionally, I tried some Lyman #429215GC bullets.  These are fairly hard lead alloy, weigh 222 gr., sized to .428 inches diameter, and are crimped in the forward lube groove to give a COAL of 1.65 inches.  These rounds fed OK through the magazine.  The light loads (4.2 gr. 700X) made a 5-shot group at 50 yards of 1.00 inches without counting a flyer.  With a healthy charge of 2400 powder this bullet should work fine for deer hunting.  And, it should work even better if sized to .429 or .430 inches, which matches the groove diameter determined by my crude slugging effort.  I need to get some more of these bullets.

I also ran some rounds loaded with 240 gr. Remington JSP bullets (.430 diameter, crimped in the bullet cannelure, and COAL of 1.595) through the magazine.  In a different rifle (original Marlin M1894) this bullet, pushed by XX gr. IMR 4227, gave a velocity of about 1440 feet per second with very good accuracy.  Today, in 26 degree weather I fired this load in my new Marlin M1894S and got a very nice 5-shot group of 1.10 inches at 50 yards. 

I have noticed that both rifles seem to have relatively generous chambers and short throats.  If your chamber is also large you may want to only neck size your brass to minimize work hardening that can lead to potential case splits.  I found that my RCBS .41 magnum bullet SEATING die was just right for this.  Lightly lube the case neck and run the case into the seater die until you get to the slight case shoulder (by sight and feel).  Depending upon bullet and crimping point, you may need to trim your cases a little shorter that normal in order to get proper feeding and/or chambering.  In all my shooting noted above the cases had been trimmed to 1.290 inches, although 1.295 inches may have worked OK.  Then use the neck expander and mouth flaring die as usual.

Regarding short throats, you may find that this could prevent using some of the very nice hunting bullets made with WFN GC molds by LBT.  At least some of these bullets have a very noticeable section of the bullet forward of the crimping groove that is at the full-sized diameter.  When the bullet is crimped in the crimping groove it may be too long to feed and/or too long to chamber.  The above are some things to consider before buying a mold.  You may want to start by purchasing some Lyman #429215GC or RCBS #82041GC cast bullets.  Dave Jennings at Montana Bullet Works is a good source.  His website is:  http://www.montanabulletworks.com/>http://www.montanabulletworks.com/ If you have not slugged your barrel I would suggest a diameter of .429 inches to start.

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rdlange posted this 12 February 2010

Thanks everyone...

You've given me alot of good info. I feel it's enough to go ahead and start reloading for my gun. Of course I've gotten some reloading manuals. Now I'll be pushing a slug down the barrel for size, then ordering some cast bullets and see what works best before I get a mold. I can get different powder locally, and primers.

I'll keep in touch with my results. Be Well.

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Old CPO posted this 12 February 2010

Hi RD, It looks like you got a fair measure of good inputs.  Most of the “new” repros will handle more pressure than factory44-40 loads (pistol safe). but keep in mind that 1866 and 1873 Winchesters,and some single shots,are limited to basically black powder pressures and unknowingly someone could accidentally put a warm load in one of those weak action guns.   I mark my warm loads with red finger nail polish (case head) plus the box. The thin neck on the 44-40, as well as the 38-40, need to be trimmed so that all are the same length or it will give you crimping problems. Since I shoot mostly black or Pyrodex, bullet set-back is seldom a problem since the bullet cannot move much.. I  once killed a deer at 40 yards with an original 1873 44-40 with a soft 200 grainer driven by 38 grs. of 11F Black and he only wandered about 10 yards.   Also there was always a reason for certain bullet weights in a given cartridge during the BP era.   The 205 gr. was the best as far as killing power with velocities in the 1250 (+-) range.   With a strong action the 180 gr. driven faster works real nice. Tom

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Dew posted this 15 February 2010

I am just waiting to find out more about this. I load and shoot a 44-40 in a Colt NF. In my gun, if I have a bullet more than .428 in the case it will not chamber. I have to have my bullets sized to .427. Nothing new here because it seems you are all using rifles. But if you do find you have a chambering problem the first thing I would do is size to .427 or 428 and see if that solves the problem.

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giorgio de galleani posted this 16 February 2010

 Dear DEW,

Solved the first problem,You might run into another,

 your bullet and or cylinder throats may be too small for your barrels forcing cone and heavily lead  the forcing cone itself and the first two inches of the barrel,

I think the modern 44/40 barrels are all the larger 429-430 diameters used in the Maggie.

My cowboy friends use all 429-430 lead bullets.

Let us know what happens, to you,the simple solution is reaming throats and or chambers as necessary.

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giorgio de galleani posted this 16 February 2010

 Dear DEW,

Solved the first problem,You might run into another,

 your bullet and or cylinder throats may be too small for your barrels forcing cone and heavily lead  the forcing cone itself and the first two inches of the barrel,

I think the modern 44/40 barrels are all the larger 429-430 diameters used in the Maggie.

My cowboy friends use all 429-430 lead bullets.

Let us know what happens, to you,the simple solution is reaming throats and or chambers as necessary.

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w30wcf posted this 15 March 2010

rdlange wrote: I have a 'modern' Marlin 1894 in 44-40 with 20” bbl, microgroove rifling.  I want hunting bullet loading for deer, pigs, etc, here in Texas.  

 ........1.  Please advise as to whether/how the 429640 would work in the slow twist microgroove barrel, and maybe load info,

2.  how to crimp non-crimp groove bullets in thin neck 44-40 so they don't telescope into the case... (I have Lee crimp die).

  1. of another good .429+ bullet (gas check and crimp groove.?) suitable for my needs.

Be Well.

RD,

1, Yes. It weighs 250 grs. (correction from 450 grs.). In the .44-40 modern Marlin I use .44 Magnum loads that are listed at 30,000 CUP and less.  Example: In the .44 Magnum, Hodgdon shows 22/4227 giving 1,624 f.p.s./28,200 cup with a 240 gr. bullet. in a 20” barrel. The .44-40 case has about 8% more case capacity than the .44 Magnum so the pressure would be a bit lower still.

  1. a.)Use a capacity load of RL7 which will produce 1,400 f.p.s. with a 240 gr. bullet @ around 20,000 cup

b.) use a filler like PSB (Poly shot buffer) over powders no slower burning than 2400.

3.http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=582790#enlarge>http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=582790#enlarge

w30wcf                                                                                                                         

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