accuracy and b.p. 45/70 loads

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  • Last Post 21 May 2010
sabbatus posted this 08 March 2010

i'm just wondering what kind of accuracy you guys are getting from your b.p. loads in the 45/70.  just started messing with black on a regular basis.  worked up a load using 70 gr goex cartridge grade, dropped through a 4 ft glass tube then compressed about 1/16th in., topped with a wonder wad, a sheet of news print and a 490 gr lyman 457677,cast of wheel weights, lubed in all grooves with a homemade lube that is based on a copy of emmerts lube with lanolin, loaded to seat in the rifling.  at 100 yds a four shot group measured 2.6 in wide and 1.9 in high out of my n.e.f. handi rifle and a 22 in. barrel.  i also tried 65 and 75 grains of the same powder a bullet but the 70 gave the best results.  the 65 gr. load had two wonder wads instead of just one

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delmarskid1 posted this 08 March 2010

Hi there. My black powder 45-70 load consists of a federal mag primer, 7 g of reloader 7, 58g of goex cartridge, a card wad cut from cardboard milk carton compressed about a 16th and then a 525 saeco flat point lubed with SPG and sized to .459” seated after the compression. This duplex load shoots better than most of my gas check 30 caliber loads. I don't blow, wipe, sneeze down the barrel, cross myself or any of that other fancy stuff. It just shoots and never has leaded. When I'm done for the day I pop a couple flannel patches in my mouth and go get my targets. By the time I'm back of the firing line they are wet enough to wipe out the bore. I dry every thing off with a couple more dry patches, wipe everything down with CLP and go home to clean the cases. I've not had much luck with straight Goex cartridge. It fouls badly for me. My buddies have great results with Swiss 1 1/2 but I won't pay that kind of money for black powder. I'm on my second case of powder using this load so I do know that it works. Ten shots at around 2” at 100 yards is the norm. Once in a while when it's humid I'll go a good bit under that.

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Dale53 posted this 09 March 2010

I was a serious Black Powder Cartridge Rifle shooter for fifteen years (until my eyesight went south). I started out using duplex loads (10% of the total black powder charge was RL-7 and reduced the black powder charge by that amount). To explain for clarity's sake - if my charge was 65 grs of black only, then I reduced the black by 10% (6.5 grains) added 6.5 grs of RL-7 and I was in business. I used .060” LDPE wads that I cut with a Fred Cornell press mounted Wad Punch. Using a high powered scope for test purposes, I could shoot ten shot groups at 500 yards, on a good day, that only spanned 6” (off the bench, of course). Using good vernier sights I could keep them well under 2 minutes of angle and shot many 1” groups at 100 yards.

The beauty of duplex loads (as mentioned by delmarskid1) is the lack of any fouling problems. I have shot 200 rounds in one day without cleaning and without losing accuracy.

My best shooting was done with a Browning 1885 BPCR but my Sharps 1875 was just about as good (even with the outside hammer).

However, when I started shooting NRA Sanctioned matches, the duplex load was off the table. It took a while, and much cussing, but I did learn to perform as well with straight black powder (with a lot more aggravation, of course). Swiss powder helped to no end as it is just flat better when using straight black.

FWIW Dale53

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tturner53 posted this 09 March 2010

I notice you guys both use RL7 for the kicker. How critical is that? I have a wide selection of powders but no RL7, any good substitutes? By the way, all three of you are doing some pretty fancy shooting. My only 45-70 at the moment is a cheap H&R plain jane. I suspect it of latent accuracy but I go to hell pretty quick shooting it from the bench!

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RockChuck posted this 09 March 2010

Gentlemen,

Forgive my ignorance but how are the duplex loads set up?  Is the smokeless mixed uniformly with the BP or are they loaded separately?

Chuck:thinking:

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sabbatus posted this 09 March 2010

tturner, as far as the palin jane h & r . i am shooting a plain handi rifle, 22 inch barrel. there is tricks to the handi, but it can be a darn good shooter.

duplex loads are created by replacing a small portion of your blackpowder with the smokeless. that smokeless is loaded into the cartridge first , the b.p. sits on top of that. the smokeless is there to help create a more efficent burn for the b.p. thats what reduces the fouling. i havent shot any duplex loads as using straight black is what interests me, and i am sure that others have much more info on them than i

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tturner53 posted this 09 March 2010

Chuck, sabbatus has described the duplex technique, I'm just chiming in to suggest you do some reading before you attempt this. They're fine, I've done it, but you need to do your homework first. Maybe search this forum for some duplex info or get Paul Matthew's excellent books.

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sabbatus posted this 09 March 2010

second the homework part, even though b.p. is lower pressure, duplex loads create a different ball game in the pressure department. using the wrong smokeless or to much can lead to bad things. Paul matthews is a excellent author on the black powder cartridge and has spent many years with the 45/70. another good starting point book is spg lubricant bp cartridge reloading primer by mike venturino and steve garbe. but that book is anti duplex loads as they feel that dulpex loads are dangerous. although i see their point, everything we do in reloading can be dangerous, those dangers are reduced significantly by doing our homework, following a strict practice, and just plain out paying attention. Duplex loads have been around since the invention of smokeless. that being said they cant be that dangerous or the practice would have been discarded many years ago.

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Dale53 posted this 10 March 2010

The Lyman cast bullet handbook has duplex loads in it complete with pressure listed.

I made up a duplex powder measure from a MEC loader “head” that dropped the smokeless, then dropped the black powder. I seated a LDPE .060” wad and tried various compressions until I got the best (most accurate shooting). It was as much as .350” depending on the lot of black powder. With Swiss, .035"-.085 was enough for best results. I used a compression die. I have a dedicated turret press (Lyman) for this purpose.

I once timed myself loading match ammo. It only took me less than half a minute to load a match round.

Using the compression die, I could not tell ANY difference with either the chronograph OR the target whether or not I used a long drop tube. I eliminated the drop tube. Reloading BPCR became pure enjoyment (as well as shooting).

In Canada, they shoot at 1200 yards with duplex loads and use as much as 20%. Using 10%, as per Lyman's pressure tests, I am not at all worried about pressure. However, I only use modern rifles (mine are not 100+ years old)

I used RL-7 as it measures extremely well, burns clean with black and is in a comfortable pressure range. 4759 works well but doesn't measure well as it is very coarse grained. 4227 is often used. I prefer RL-7.

YMMV, Dale53

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Mnshooter posted this 14 March 2010

I have used both duplex and straight BP loads as well as some phoney black powders like 777. I used 4759 as it was recommended in the usual 10% reduction and had no problems. Mostly Garbe has written against them as he is a purist, but I ahd one article where he used red dot as a kicker to get accuracy out of small cases like the 25-20. I ahve chronographed a few of them and agree with Matthews in that a grain of smokeless is about equivalent to 3 grains of black. In other words 7 grains of smokeless and 63 grains of BP is equivalent to a 84 grain BP load. I got around 1500 to 1600 fps with the Gould HP 322 grain bullet. WW cases seem to have the most capacity and are good for BP, especially fire formed and neck sized only. Rem or Starlines are also good candidates for duplex loading. BP accuracy is about as good as my iron sights but straight BP loads can go crazy on some days where humidity changes. Straight BP is fun, duplex less work. I now have a Petersoli Rolling Block, had taken a deer with a H & R Buffalo model.

Mnshooter

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Daryl S posted this 15 March 2010

I'm using 62gr. 1F or 2F, with a fairly soft 506gr.Lyman Schmitzer or 525gr.(.457125mould) RN, using 60% beeswax, 40% vaseline in a long throated .45/60 (1.9” case) to an OAL of 3". My rifle is a Sharps, barrel GM @ 35".  Double Apertures.

Accuracy is 1 1/4” MOA to 1 1/2MOA. Shot without wiping, but 3 slow 'blows' thought the bore between loading & subsequent shots to soften the fouling in the long throat.

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sabbatus posted this 26 March 2010

sure is a nice lookin' shootin iron there daryl

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Daryl S posted this 21 May 2010

It will and has put 10 consecutive 405gr. Remingtons at 1,840fps, into under 1” at 100 meters, off the bags - using the same Soule rear tang and Sharps globed double crosshair with aperture center front sight. If I was to pack it's 12 pound 4oz. weight hunting, that would be the hunting load with Sharps 'open' sights.

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