AS CAST with G/C

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  • Last Post 25 June 2011
CANADIAN BACON posted this 23 March 2010

Howdy:D Last week at our local Gong Shoot, discussion about “As Cast Bullets” came up. I asked “If we shoot as cast what about the G/C size". The question being. The G/C has to be crimped on so what size do we use? The throat in my .308 is .310. My mould drops .311. If I shoot As Cast, what sizer do I use?? I read a lot of posts concerning “As Cast” loads but nothing is mentioned about G/C size.   Hey Iam like the rest of you/all. Looking for an edge;) And I will listen:dude:

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billwnr posted this 23 March 2010

I'd use either a .310 or a .311 depending on whether you want to size the bullet or not. The .310's I've checked run a little larger. I have three that are between .3104 and .3107. No difference on the targets.

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galenaholic posted this 23 March 2010

Well, if you just want to shoot s cast but need to use a gas check, Lyman does sell that little gizmo they call a gas check seater. you use it to allow the bullet to enter a die only just deep enough to fasten the GC. To lube use a .311” or '312” die to keep rm sizing the bullet. That's probably how i would do it if I didn't want to size the bullet at all.

Paul B.

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CANADIAN BACON posted this 24 March 2010

galenaholic wrote: Well, if you just want to shoot s cast but need to use a gas check, Lyman does sell that little gizmo they call a gas check seater. you use it to allow the bullet to enter a die only just deep enough to fasten the GC. To lube use a .311” or '312” die to keep rm sizing the bullet. That's probably how i would do it if I didn't want to size the bullet at all.

Paul B.

Thanks Guys:D The Galenaholic has an idea. :dude: This is why I ask questions. You guys know all the tricks;) Anyway, my new 314299 arrived last night.:cool: It looks to nice to use. Iam not impressed with the RCBS 165 Sil I just bought. If I use any Linotype at all, it casts 314. Presently Iam at 60% lead 40% W/W and it still drops 310/311. I have to smack the side of the mould handles pretty hard - ( as per RBCS over the phone instructions)- to get the mould to set up properly. After all that abuse it still has a flash mark all the way round the bullet. This one is going back.  Iam kinda sad about it because the bullet does shoot pretty good in the rifle. "But” - I recon if the mould dropped the proper size it would shoot better. FWIT I haven't ordered a custom mould yet because I have a couple of barrel's I want to try in my 308. When I settle on the twist, 14 or12 , I'll probably entertain the idea of, one rifle /one mould, set up. Iam going Gizzmo shopping:) Thanks Again:D

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runfiverun posted this 24 March 2010

the alignment pins are holding the mold open, the last few rcbs molds iv'e bought have been like that. i usually put it between two scrap pieces of wood and about two whacks with a heavy hammer sets it right. i have tried the gentle approach,but just a couple of good whacks does the job.

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CANADIAN BACON posted this 25 March 2010

runfiverun wrote: the alignment pins are holding the mold open, the last few rcbs molds iv'e bought have been like that. i usually put it between two scrap pieces of wood and about two whacks with a heavy hammer sets it right. i have tried the gentle approach,but just a couple of good whacks does the job.

Thanks R5R:D I ride with the hammer fit crowd as well. I'll take the sprue plate off and put everything on the anvil. If a couple whacks with a 4lb hammer doesn't do the trick it's going back:) I must say the Lyman 314299 is perfect. I mean perfect. Even if it doesn't shoot I can drill a hole in the bullet and make neck laces:cool: The bullet is round, not even .0005 out. The base is .283, the nose is .303, the body is .314 and no flash line. The check popes on with no lead stripping. The handles come together just right.  This is a keeper. I hope it shoots:D Thanks for the advise

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bandmiller2 posted this 25 June 2011

C. Bacon,why not use a cheap Lee 311 sizing die to seat the checks?They also can be opened up easily for custom sizes. Frank C.

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CB posted this 25 June 2011

Your origonal question; Don't worry about how or what to seat the gas check. either of the .309” - .314” lube dies will seat the check. I never shoot 'as cast' from any of my rifle loads. The diameter of the sizing die you use should be determined by the size of the opening of your throat at the end of the case neck.

It does no good to cram-shoot a .314” base cb into a .312” opening in the throat. On the other hand if you shoot a .310” base cb into a .312” opening, you'll more than likely have fouling problems, both lead and powder..............Dan

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CB posted this 25 June 2011

My original sizing plan when I purchased my Star sizer was to special order the sizing dies at a tiny fraction under “as cast” diameter. I would cast my bullets, then measure them after a week of aging to determine which sizer to order. I would then load the finished bullet & do my load development. My idea was to buy LEE push through sizers & size the bullets only if needed. Everything I loaded for accepted the cartridges with the “as cast” dimensions, and I have yet to buy a single LEE sizer. I realize this post is pretty much dancing around your question, but I've discovered that bullet sizing isn't always what it's made out to be.

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joeb33050 posted this 25 June 2011

The Lyman 45, 450, 4500 and 45,000 will crimp gas checks on the bullet without sizing that bullet. Merely crank that bottom screw up so the bullet with GC just starts into the die and the GC is crimped on. Some fiddling is required, and commonly the GC crimped on in this manner is larger in diameter than the die. A .311” die, for example, might well crimp on a gas check so it can't be removed with your, (or anyone elses) thumbnail while that very same GC might measure .3124". Hence the fiddling.

Now, contrary to some opinion, there are quite a few bullets shot “as cast". I'd refer you to the ASSRA/pbb shooters, many of whom believe that it is a mortal sin to even own a luborisizing apparatus. Such well known shooters as John Ardito, Frank Marshall and Ben Bernanke have repeatedly said, and I paraphrase, “less sizing is more better!".

Some of us non-competitive shooters have had good luck shooting as cast bullets without the GC, or/and sized bullets without the GC. In the distant past, when I lived within 20-0 miles of a range where competitions were held, I had great luck with 311299 lubed in a .314” die, sans GC.

Remember the 311299, younger brother of the 314299. With one of each DC mold one may end up with 4 bullets with slightly different dimensions. (Here is where the 4 part mold with mix-and-match bases and noses would be Ideal. Ideal, get it?) Lapping suggests itself. The opportunity for experimentation is unlimited. Almost.

As for bullet size, seat the bullet way out and cram the, (unloaded),ctg in the gun. Now try to get the ctg out. If it comes out without de-bulleting, shoot it at that OAL. Almost always this method provides a starting point and baseline for that almost unlimited. (I've had good luck with IMR4227, starting ~20.)

And remember, don't listen to anyone on this forum.

joe b.

  

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CB posted this 25 June 2011

joeb33050 wrote: Now, contrary to some opinion, there are quite a few bullets shot “as cast". I'd refer you to the ASSRA/pbb shooters, many of whom believe that it is a mortal sin to even own a luborisizing apparatus. Such well known shooters as John Ardito, Frank Marshall and Ben Bernanke have repeatedly said, and I paraphrase, “less sizing is more better!".

And remember, don't listen to anyone on this forum.

joe b.

Those 'quite a few' bullets shot by ASSRA/pbb shooters are are mostly 100% using cutom barrel with custom throats and custom moulds specifically made to fit exactly into the throat and that after it has been perfectly breech seated. A WHOLE DIFFERENT CONCEPT JOE.

Joe, you ought to quit lying trying to use credible authors' names to back up your responses. Frank Marshal wrote a mighty fine article on 'bullet sizing' in issue 22 of the Fouling Shot, “Adequate Accuracy is Attainable with Simple Techniques” all about correct sizing of CBs and is similar to most of his articles including sizing. The last time I saw John Ardito shoot in a match I watched as he was sizing every bullet he shot at the bench during practice getting ready for the match.

CANADIAN BACON was asking for an 'edge' which I consider something that is successful and accurate, not something that may or may not be a possibility to achieve.........DanW

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billwnr posted this 25 June 2011

joeb33050 wrote:

Now, contrary to some opinion, there are quite a few bullets shot “as cast". I'd refer you to the ASSRA/pbb shooters, many of whom believe that it is a mortal sin to even own a luborisizing apparatus. Such well known shooters as John Ardito, Frank Marshall and Ben Bernanke have repeatedly said, and I paraphrase, “less sizing is more better!".

And remember, don't listen to anyone on this forum.

joe b.

  

I'd like to think Joe discovered humor in his later yearshis rfeply was an example of it.

Ardito really changes the diameters of his bullets. He advocates sizing the bullets down to something under .312 while sizing and lubing them. Then he reshapes them in his bump die to .314. (down in size and then up in size).

Larry Jennings took it one step further and resized down to throat diameter after the bump exercise.

So... which camp is best.... “minimal sizing” or “crank that puppy around in diameter"?

My personal observations are that as long as the bullet is sized and lubed exactly perpendicular that any amount of sizing is ok. If the bullet is pushed thru the luber on an angle only bad things happen.

I found out in my military rifle that .002 difference in bullet diameter was worth 15+ points during the score matches.

ASSRA is breech seating and only applicable to Plain Base shooters here. The rest of us shoot with gas checks and enough powder in the case to get up to 1600-2100+fps muzzle velocity.

I'd like to see an ASSRA shooter's results with the velocities the gas check shooters regularly shoot with.

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